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winter-worthy NeoAir
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Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 15:37:13 MDT Print View

Looks like this CCF mat is much warmer per weight than what else I've found out there:
http://pacoutdoor.com/sleeping-pads/view/sl-basic

With the NeoAir medium, you get an R-Value of 5.5 to 6.5 for 22oz, which appears to compete with the Kookabay downmats on warmth/weight ratio, without the hassle of a pump, moisture, etc. Of course, it takes up more space (if you try to fit the CCF in your pack - who does?).

9oz + 13oz NeoAir medium - assuming using your pack/clothes/platypus and the CCF pad as a pillow. A little bit of additional trimming (since only insulation and not support is needed) can probably drop the CCF down to 8oz.

Any flaws in this logic? This seems like the cheapest and most flexible way to get a winter-worthy pad if you already have a NeoAir.

Erik Danielsen
(er1kksen) - F

Locale: The Western Door
CCF in pack? on 10/14/2010 15:59:02 MDT Print View

I'm pretty sure just about anyone who uses a rolled or folded CCF pad as their packframe fits them into their pack, myself included. Just saying.

That said, I'm not sure I see much advantage to this over just buying a cheap CCF pad and trimming it yourself. Is the R-value really that much higher (I'm not familiar with the R-value for the standard wally-world CCF...).

Edited by er1kksen on 10/14/2010 16:00:19 MDT.

Jim MacDiarmid
(jrmacd) - MLife
Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 16:09:28 MDT Print View

The only flaw I see is the claim of 3-4 R-Value for such a thin pad.

I'm wondering how they get an R-Value of 3-4 from a .39" thick closed cell pad. In this thread, Richard Nisley states that the typical R-Value of a 3/8" (.375")blue foam pad is 1.35. I'm not an engineer, and I realize there are construction techniques that can increase R-Value over the generic blue pad, but to practically triple it? For 9 oz? I have a full-length Thermarest Ridgerest that I've trimmed to mummy-ish dimensions that now weighs 9.28oz, but is ~60% thicker at .625" and Thermarest is only claiming a 2.6 R-Value for it.

Claims aside, I like the idea of a CCF for warmth + NeoAir for comfort winter sleep pad system. I haven't done a lot of winter camping, but one of the things that holds me back from a downmat is the possibility of a leak. If it leaks you're on the ground. If you need to bring a CCF as a backup for safety, that's just increasing your weight. And you'll need at least a a sit pad sized CCF to sit on, and preferably one for under your feet, so why not use the same one as part of your sleep system and top it off with a comfortable NeoAir?

That's why I'm intrigued by the Ridgrest Solar discussed in this thread.

If I can get close to the same 34% weight reduction I did trimming my standard Ridgerest, I could get the Solar down to 12-13oz, combined with my small NeoAir for a weight of 22oz with an R-Value of 6 under my torso and hips, and an acceptable 3.5 plus whatever my pack adds under my feet.

Edited by jrmacd on 10/14/2010 16:11:01 MDT.

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 17:25:07 MDT Print View

Right, the advantage here, is the much higher claimed R-value than typical CCF pads for the thickness/weight. I'm not sure, either, how they managed to achieve it, which is why I'm asking about this combination. To be fair, they don't call it CCF but rather closed cell insulation, but I would think those are the one-in-the-same?

James, can you post the dimensions/shape that you cut your ridgerest down to? That was another option I looked at. How comfortable is the ridgerest to sleep on, compared to the NeoAir? (assuming you put the ridgerest on the top)

Edited by lindahlb on 10/14/2010 17:34:01 MDT.

Andy F
(AndyF) - M

Locale: Midwest/Midatlantic
Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 17:41:48 MDT Print View

With a DownMat 7 Pump Short, you get an R-value of 5.9 and a weight of 23 oz. (length=47" though) You'd lose the CCF "backup" in case of an unpatchable hole, but the DownMat material is more durable than the NeoAir. I'd just have a sit pad and pack under my feet.

But, for winter, I have the full-size DownMat 7 at 32 oz.

Paul McLaughlin
(paul) - MLife
Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 17:52:41 MDT Print View

I think we would be giving the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt if we assume they goofed on the r-value. Given that the Ridgerest Solar (twice as thick)is R3.5, I doubt that POE has it right here. They'd have to have something pretty slick to get R3 with 3/8" foam

Jim MacDiarmid
(jrmacd) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 18:22:13 MDT Print View

Here's a picture of my trimmed Ridgerest:
ridgerest

It's 70" long, and I just cut it to fit my body while lying down for the rest of it.

The Ridgerest isn't nearly as comfortable as the NeoAir, but I'm getting better as sleeping on it. I've never used it in combination with the NeoAir, so I can't speak to that. When I use the NeoAir, I use a 1/8" foam underneath it, mainly as protection.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/14/2010 21:19:49 MDT Print View

3/8" R3? Hmmm... if it proves to be true that would be very interesting indeed.

I have 2 Kookabay DAM's coming soon, 3.5" thick R9 at 26oz (without pump) according to Bender's specs. I've been very happy with the synmat he made me which is R4 19oz... but if you already have a Neoair then you have nothing to lose except maybe a good nights sleep if that 3/8 R3 doesn't hold up ;)


Jacob.

Vince Contreras
(pillowthread) - F

Locale: like, in my head???
sl-basic on 10/14/2010 23:57:32 MDT Print View

I've used a POE sl-basic in all seasons for about a year now, and the only difference I can tell vs. a basic blue wallyworld foamie is that the POE foam seems denser, i.e. smaller air bubbles within the matrix. Also, it does not have the "sticky" tactile feel of a GG thinlight pad.

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/15/2010 08:56:08 MDT Print View

not to be snarky at all, but you might try the search function for something like "Neoair winter;" much discussion in the past

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: winter-worthy NeoAir on 10/15/2010 09:29:47 MDT Print View

I've read many other winter NeoAir discussions. However, I've found no discussion about using this particular pad and given the astonishingly high R-value (claimed) for the weight, I figured it relevant enough to start a new discussion.

Edited by lindahlb on 10/15/2010 09:30:32 MDT.