> i dont think it would be all that much more weight when you consider what you
> already carry just deal with crossings in winter.
Um ... what do you carry?
We have waded a few rivers in winter, and even in the snow, but we didn't carry anything for the crossings. Zero added weight.

Cheers

I have the NEOS Trekkers which are the not so UL version of the concept.

Roger,

If they could be made to double as gaiters you would not need gaiters, nor would you need goretex socks. Gaiters + gortex socks = 5-7oz? just a guess. Also camp shoes would not be needed(if you carry them) = 6-8oz, again a guess. Take those things away, they dont seem so heavy anymore.

Brainstorming again:
make it in 3 parts: top part cuben, middle part gaiter/more durable material, bottom part unknown yet. They can all be disconnected and used for different purposes, the middle for gaiters, the bottom for camp shoes, etc.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 10/05/2010 16:01:53 MDT.

For stream crossings now i carry crocs. But i also carry gaiters year round and goretex socks in the winter as well.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 10/05/2010 16:02:27 MDT.

Thats what im thinking of, but perhaps detachable parts and lighter weight materials. Cool idea.

Kendall, I use the NRS Hydroskin socks. As I mention in the original article, 3mm neoprene (which the Boundary socks are made of) is much too warm for anything approaching normal hiking.

As for winter stream crossings, it has to get pretty darn cold before the wool liner and Hydroskin setup fails me. You have to keep moving to generate heat, and some might find this too cold or temporarily too miserable.

You can find open water, and especially overflow (ice sinks in a stream causing water to flow on top of it), at very cold temperatures, such that getting your feet wet might be dangerous. Alaska Ultrasport racers (the human powered iditarod) have used Wiggy's waders for years (http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?category=3) which are very similar to what Ike has been talking about. On the other hand Luc Mehl, three time winner of the Alaska Mountain Ski Classic, told me he and his partners just use plastic ski boots with thermo liners and get wet. Dump the water out and keep moving and your feet will be fine, apparently, even below zero. Thermo liners are heat molded closed-cell foam so they absorb no water.

I own Neos Trekkers, and they work great for sauntering through slush to the coffee shop or shoveling the driveway. Certainly waterproof. Not breathable at all, so you'd need to wear a vapor barrier liner to keep your insulating socks and shoes from getting soaked by sweat. Most seriously, in my view, are the soles, which have poor traction and are too floppy for serious hiking.

I made my own knee-high waders. In Denali National Park, Alaska, backcountry hikers are specifically warned not to try to ford any streams or rivers barefooted. First, I found a clear plastic bag. It was packaging for some long skinny object, so it was cut into two pieces that fit my legs. I sealed over the bottom with waterproof tape and then applied pieces of Reflectix as an inner-sole and also as an outer-sole. Then I fasten them onto my legs using rubber bands which also serve to wrap them up for transport. None of it will leak unless punctured by a very sharp rock. Very light. 44 grams.

--B.G.--

Edited by --B.G.-- on 10/05/2010 18:21:14 MDT.

2 waterproof stuff sacks over sandles ... you can use plastic bags if they are strong enough

neoprene is a b-tch to dry when cold .. as anyone who has been surfing in tofino can attest to

lol

@Roger

could you describe the process you use to cross various streams. The problem as i see it is that the above setups are fine for ankle high areas, etc, but what about knee high? What do you do in this situation.

I dont really like drying my socks in my sleeping bag with me at night if i can avoid it, that moisture tends to spread around to other things as well. Not to mention them freezing if your not constantly keeping them warm.

@David
Im confused about those wiggys light weight waders. They say they weigh under 1LB but then if you click the image they say they weigh 8.9oz. Do you have any information in this regard?

=====================

Some various waders:

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/2248,1341P_Frogg-Toggs-Hellbender-Stockingfoot-Waders-Waterproof-For-Men.html

-weight could be cut down alot on this, as i would cut them off a little below the crotch and ditch everything above it. 15oz uncut, after cut, my guess 7-9oz per pair.

homemade waders:
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1071274662035849719LhYoWw

Other than those options, your stuck with the ones David listed earlier, which appear fine.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 10/05/2010 18:56:08 MDT.

Hi Ike

> could you describe the process you use to cross various streams. The problem as
> i see it is that the above setups are fine for ankle high areas, etc, but what
> about knee high?

Three season - depends a bit on where we are and where we are going.
* If there is one sandy steam crossing and lots of distance afterwards, we take our gaiters, shoes, socks and trousers off and cross. Then we dress.
* If the bottom is rocky we usually put just our shoes back on to protect our toes. Wet UL joggers dry very quickly.
* If there are several creek crossings (eg walking down the Coxs River) then we just keep walking without stopping. Our trousers, socks and (NON-GTX!) shoes dry quickly enough.
* If it's very deep, we strip, repack packs with garbage bag liner, and swim. Etc.


. One of many crossings on the Coxs River.

Winter - again, depends. I'll give the worst case: you can fill in the rest from the above.
* Snow season, up to knee deep. Take GTX gaiters (very good in the snow), shoes, socks and trousers off. Put clothing safely under pack lid, tie shoes to top of pack. Tuck gaiters under lid straps (important). Hold hands with each other for stability and cross as fast as possible. Putting shoes back on is optional, but we try not to.
On the far bank we grab for the gaiters and throw them down onto the snow and stand on them. This bit is crucial: get out of the water and off the snow, fast. It makes a huge difference. Usually we aim for a pre-planned landing spot where we can sit down.
Then we drop packs, sit on one GTX gaiter with feet on the other, access clothing and dry legs and feet with socks. Put socks back on, put trousers back on, put shoes back on, put gaiters back on. Start walking! We warm up very quickly.



. Actually, a snow bridge had given away and I sort of
. slid in to my knees. But no problems. In this case
. I was standing on 'dry' warm snow grass.

Sounds a bit desperate in winter, but in practice it is OK. What we do not normally do in winter is to go so deep we get our underwear wet. Not because of some silly ideas, but because of heat-loss risks.

> I don't really like drying my socks in my sleeping bag
I did not say we dried our shoes in our sleeping bags. We put them into large plastic bags to confine the water and just keep them warm. They go on wet in the morning - wet, but not frozen. If conditions are bad they will get wet again soon so why bother drying them? If conditions are good they will dry out soon anyhow.

Other comments about gaining experience in the mountains and the snow obviously apply. What we do is the result of many years of experiment, plus good knowledge of our own capabilities. The novice should start VERY carefully.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 10/05/2010 18:39:13 MDT.

Thanks for the informative post on yoru process roger. I cross with everything on in the summer, but on winter trips with frequent crossings, i find the idea of taking off everything below the belt, crossing, sitting on a gaiter and drying your feet, putting everything back on again, to be time consuming. I woudl rather just take the 7-9oz penalty and make my own waders. I cant imagine going through that ordeal many times over in a day. Then you have the issue of slicing a foot open and loosing a footing. The rocks in the creeks/streams i've been in are so slick its impossible to stand on them, the rest of them are so sharp they can slice easy. Not something i would want to hike with. As far as experience goes, I cant see how walking on sharp/slippery stream rocks in the winter could be good for me. Standing on those slipper rocks in a creek/stream is hard enough to do without falling down, add in crossing, maintaing balance with a pack on, etc. I've never encountered anything more slippery on the planet than the rocks in the streams i've crossed in the south east. They have a layer of slimey slippery stuff over them most of the time. Maybe the rocks in the creeks/streams are different in your neck of the woods.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 10/05/2010 19:43:25 MDT.

David,
Thanks very much. I appreciate that. I was at work earlier, so I didn't have time to read your article. I'll go to it now.

Thanks again

Hi Ike

> on winter trips with frequent crossings, i find the idea of taking off everything
> below the belt, crossing, sitting on a gaiter and drying your feet, putting
> everything back on again, to be time consuming.
I agree, it takes a little bit of time. We don't have to do it very often, so that's OK, - FOR US.

For you it may be a different matter, so what suits you will be different. Certainly, slicing feet open is a big NO-NO.

We do get slippery rocks in canyons, but not in our alpine areas. So we do have different conditions. That often means different gear is needed.

Makes it seem like local experience is rather important! Formulating rules for novices may be ... difficult. :-)

Cheers

Awesome pictures Roger! One usually doesn't get them in instances of such misery.

The other alternative to keeping wet socks thawed is to put them under your sleeping mat around the sides of your torso. IME enough heat leaks out to keep them from freezing. Between two mats (if you use two) is even better.

Ike, those Frogg Toggs waders are 1lb. 15oz. so, pretty substantial. Even cut down to just the legs they'd probably weigh closer to 1lb.

Personally, I like your idea of something homemade better. I'm not sure how the multi-use idea would work in practice (mainly waterproofing concerns), but just as a UL wader I think it's great.

Ordering cuben, im ordering cuben to make a tarp, underquilt, and filter bag. i will also make some waders.

I've never used waders before, are the little black things you slip your foot/shoe into neoprene booties on most waders?

Edited by isaac.mouser on 10/06/2010 08:07:58 MDT.

David, great insight into a different world of cold! I think the 'killer app' there was your experience of racing and competition.

I am always grateful when information is provided from people who are racing... the focus that competition brings to gear and technique is way above that gained from just toodling around.

I'm wondering if waterproof/breathable socks (ie. SealSkinz, Rocky Gore-Tex socks) really do any breathing if your shoes are soaked? It seems like wet shoes would have very little capacity to absorb moisture from the foot.

I can understand wearing WP/B socks if you are hiking in them inside dry shoes as a preventative measure to keep your socks and feet dry, but if you use them as a reaction to wet shoes and then take them back off when your shoes are dry, then it might work just as well to use cheaper, not breathable socks?

For me personally, I can see the appeal of slapping on dry socks inside a waterproof sock to keep your feet dry and warmer while your wet shoes dry, but I don't think I'd wear the waterproof socks once my shoes are dry. Even breathable ones are going to give you clammy feet if you're using them for hours.

Edited by dandydan on 10/06/2010 19:05:29 MDT.

Dandy wrote...
For me personally, I can see the appeal of slapping on dry socks inside a waterproof sock to keep your feet dry and warmer while your wet shoes dry, but I don't think I'd wear the waterproof socks once my shoes are dry. Even breathable ones are going to give you clammy feet if you're using them for hours.


...did you notice the temps he is using this stuff at? ...

Edited by electricpanda on 10/06/2010 20:12:38 MDT.

I'm just asking a question to help me hike better....I realize the OP's needs may be a bit different than mine. Hopefully someone can provide some feedback on whether wp/b socks actually breath when inside a wet shoe.

Edited by dandydan on 10/06/2010 23:59:23 MDT.