How much importance do you place on varying your insulation types? By this question i mean the down vs synthetic. What good is an all-down kit if it gets wet? I currently employ an MB thermawrap and 2 JRB no-snivellers as my winter insulation for my hammock/clothing system. I supplement with synthetic gloves, balaclava. I use merino base layers.

I recently picked up an eddie bauer downlight, but am somewhat cautions of replacing my thermawrap for fear of water compromising it. I have rain protection for it but still don't feel safe replacing my synthetic insulation and going all-down on the eastern part of the country. I understand that even synthetics lose warmth with wetness, but not nearly as much as down. BTW im not talking about soaking layers, im talking about moderate wetting. Vapor barriers seem to be the only fool-proof insulation, but they are only useable at extreme temperature ranges.

Thoughts?

Edited by isaac.mouser on 09/13/2010 09:37:34 MDT.

I've always used synthetic clothing insulation along w/down quilt. In fact, I, too, use a T-wrap parka w/ the NS from JRB.

Am going to try a down jacket on short trips where I'm fairly "confident" of the weather to see how it goes. What's prompted this is the fact that I've never had a problem.

That said, it only takes once to be sorry....Will see how it turns out!

Methinks the importance of diversifying insulation types pales in significance to the greater importance of ensuring that your sleeping bag and clothing be protected and kept dry.

I actually suspect the oft-repeated marketing mantra of synthetics "keeping you warm in the cold even when wet" is used as loosely as that other marketing mantra of synthetic layers keeping you "comfy and dry in warm weather" -- or Goretex keeping you dry (guaranteed). Yeah, right.

A completely-soaked down bag is going to be useless for the night. But if you ever let your synthetic bag get completely soaked... sure, it will insulate you a bit more and dry a bit quicker -- but methinks we're just talking different degrees of misery all through the night anyway...

Addendum: Maybe some of ye BPL staffers can volunteer to do a comparative test -- soaking wet down bag vs. soaking wet synthetic? Fall is fast upon us and winter is not far behind. :)

of course this thread assumes one is doing all one can to keep ones downbags dry. I use heavy duty contractor bag liners.

I do the same as well. So, for those of us who are serious and careful about keeping our bag and clothing dry -- then why not enjoy the light weight and compactness of down?

Not saying that synthetics have no place (of course they do) -- but I don't think I would increase bulk and weight just for the sake of diversifying...

Perhaps there are certain winter situations -- multiple-day excursions where condensation build up can become an issue for down bags... but then, it seems like in most any situation, we find plenty of people use down bags as well??

Edited by ben2world on 09/13/2010 09:48:25 MDT.

Something along the same lines is fabric type. condensation is just as much, if not more(since its unavoidable) thread to insulation. If I was going to make a bag with down, Wouldn't it be adviseable to have it constucted the most breatheable fabrics on the inside and pretty breatheable fabric on the outside. If you could ensure that the outside was protected from rain completely, you would want it of the most breatheable fabric as well correct?

Hopefully this wont be a hijack, just thought it was relevant.

I wish I have the skills to make my own bag but I don't -- so just thinking out loud here FWIW...

Not sure if you really need the most breathable fabric. After all, you want to retain sufficient warmth and you won't be moving much during the night.

My beloved Montbell bags use the same material for both liner and shell -- and I think WM bags (the popular "Extremelite" series) are that way too. The fabrics are very tightly woven (liner to retain warmth and shell to block the wind) -- and not coated but simply treated with DWR to allow for breathing and some moisture resistance. Seems like this type of bag is designed for a very wide range of conditions -- with varying quantities of down to handle different temps.

OTOH, we know there are bags designed to be even more wind / water resistant (coated fabric, seamless construction, etc.) -- but these are for much more specialized conditions. I too am curious to know just what those conditions are where specialized bags are required and "general purpose" down bags just won't do.

Edited by ben2world on 09/13/2010 10:17:27 MDT.

BPL did do a review and article comparing drying times for down and synthetic vests.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wet_weather_performance_down_vs_synth_vests.html

I found that interesting in that it clearly suggested that down performed and dried fairly well. If you take reasonable caution in keeping it dry, down makes a lot of sense (still). I have a synthetic jacket that I got for paddle trips, figuring the chance of soaking was much higher. When I packed my bags and then swamped the canoe and then paddled back as a test, the stuff in the nonwaterproof bag that had been partially submerged was fairly wet. Nothing like that has happened to me in rain.

But can you get your down jacket on underneath your waterproof jacket?

Won't help if the canoe flips over...

For me canoeing, I would just wear a shell jacket over a tee shirt or shirt. A soaked synthetic jacket is still going to be a royal pain. Maybe row faster initially to keep warm? :)

As with Ike, I too use a large contractor bag as a liner. Once the top is twisted tight (and esp. if also rubber banded tightly), things will stay dry even in a river dunking.

Edited by ben2world on 09/13/2010 14:44:02 MDT.

No, I meant this as a question. Can you get a down jacket on underneath your rain jacket, or rather can you get your rain jacket on over-top of a down jacket? Because I can't do that comfortably, so I take a synthetic.

There isn't any comparison to do. The fact is, the down bag when will not insulate when wet. Period.

Having slept in a thoroughly soaked synthetic, while uncomfortable because of the wetness itself, was indeed toasty warm and isn't a product of marketing hype.

You can wear a down jacket under a rain jacket. Whether it fits or not depends upon the type of down jacket you have (550 versus 800 fill as an example) and if your rain jacket is the proper size for layering.

Your down jacket should be hung in the sun on longer trips when possible to help keep it dry as the down will pickup small amounts of moisture as you perspire. This concept is no different than when you have a down sleeping bag or quilt.

I've been thinking about this as well. I'm going on my first extended trip, with likely overnight temps in the 25-32F range, but since it's the mountains(Sierras)in October, I could easily see sub-20s. My only bags currently are a Nunatak Arc(32F) and a Arc AT (3/4 length, 40F) that I planning on combining with the MB UL Down Inner Parka I'd be bringing anyways to be fine should the temperature really drop.

Now I'm thinking about bringing my Cocoon hoody and side zip pants at the cost of 1.8oz, for the security in having a more weather proof layer. At the very least, I'm going to swap out the down parka for the synthetic hoody.

I'm never all that worried about getting my bag wet, as those only come out of the bag liner when they're in my shelter.

In the dead of winter I'd be much less concerned about getting my down wet since precip is going to be frozen. Shoulder seasons where it could be just above freezing and wet are when I would think about bringing more synthetics.

I carry a Heatsheets emergency bivy (3.5 oz). In heavy rain, it protects both my down and synthetic sleeping bags from external moisture. They thus continue to provide insulation from the cold. For those who hate the non-permeability of the Heetsheets: Yer not gonna do a lot of sweating in cold weather anyway, at least I don't.

Stargazer

I use down and wool with a rain jacket if needed. The conditions dictate what I take and wear. I use down in a jacket and sleeping bag because of the weight and size. I make sure that I can keep it dry otherwise I am sure I will not be happy, I plan to have more shelter then average conditions require. With slight chance of rain I take a rain jacket and TT Sublite. If I suspect heavy rain then I add rain pants and a MLD Solomid. If conditions may be really bad I don't go. I make sure I can get my down inner jacket under my rain jacket but IMHO it is rare that I will be using a down jacket in the rain as it is to warm and that is what the wool is for. I pair a wool hoodie from Icebreaker with a good jacket and while walking I am good to below freezing. I don't overnight in the winter so that is not something I prepare for. I am not usually in areas with more days of rain than sun.

the real problem I see with down is if it gets really soaked when the down clusters clump together and you're left with basically two layers of nylon. Down has very little structural integrity. But it takes a lot of water and time to get to that point, something I can't see happening unless something really catastrophic or gross user error.

Some humidity won't make the down much harm. All high loft insulation will lose properties if wet but it's not like it gets useless all of a sudden. The only advantage I see with synthetics is that due to some higher structural integrity if the thing gets soaked you can still squeeze the water out and still expect some loft capacity but the point is you shouldn't get to that point.

If anything and if I expect very dump conditions I would choose a higher density down filling which will still be much lighter than the thermically equivalent synthetic and I guess will be less vulnerable.

Edited by inaki on 09/14/2010 15:18:20 MDT.

I've become a big fan of the lightweight down midlayers now widely available (MontBell especially) and use them whenever it's strictly hiking, under a rain shell if necessary. The down midlayers tend to be short, at any rate shorter than my rain shell, and I'm very careful about packing them in something waterproof when they are in my pack.

But if packrafting is involved, I take a merino or synthetic midlayer, since the shell (or dry bag or garbage bag) won't help if I'm dunked when wearing the down jacket. Wool does insulate when wet, though synthetics dry faster.

@ Andrews...

"No, I meant this as a question. Can you get a down jacket on underneath your rain jacket, or rather can you get your rain jacket on over-top of a down jacket? Because I can't do that comfortably, so I take a synthetic."

Yes, you can certainly wear a shell layer over either a down or synthetic insulation layer. In your case, you wrote that you can wear your rain jacket over your synthetic jacket, but not comfortably over your down jacket. Most likely, this is because your down jacket "puffs up" more than your synthetic jacket -- and is meant for colder temps than your synthetic.

The solution is to size up a shell jacket so it can be worn alone (when cool and windy) or on top of either a synthetic or down layer (when cold and windy) -- making sure that the shell jacket is big enough so that the insulation layer underneath can "puff up" as normal. Regardless of material, if the insulation is restricted, then warmth retention will be compromised.

of this question. As a whitewater boater, obviously, I'm dealing with the wet all the time. It's a question of how you pack and the discipline to pack properly. With that side, I've pulled wrapped boats out of the river and after 2 hours with literally tons of water pouring onto the drybags, and the down inside was 100% totally dry.

I guess if I couldn't pack that way, I would put more weight on synthetics. But I've found synthetics lose loft and warmth much faster than down, and aren't correspondingly cheaper. And they are heavier. So, for me, it's high quality down and tested packing systems to protect them.