Franco wrote: I can see that it may help to keep the tent down (not fly away) but it would not necessarily keep it up (pole breakage)
The main problem I see with that is if you use a superstrong thin net (say Dyneema) it would cut through the fabric with abrasion . if you use a thicker somewhat softer version it would be too bulky."

Good point on the abrasion. I was imagineering out loud of course (still am). The mesh could be quite large-- lets say a 6"/15cm grid of coated Spectra like Zing-It line? Staked down nice and snug, the fabric wouldn't be doing the wild dance, which would also take a lot of stress off the poles. You would still have the general wind load trying to push the tent in one direction, but even that would be aided by the multi-point reinforcement of a grid of lines. I could see it being pulled off with 8oz/225g worth of Zing-it and Ti stakes. I'll bet you could double the wind performance of any geodesic design for a few dollars and an evening's macramé work.

When dome tents first came on the market, I saw some crazy things happen to them in the wind, flexing over sideways 45 degrees or more and giving the occupants a haunted house night for sleep. Of course with the easy pitch, people where plunking them down in the most scenic (and exposed) spot. Manufacturers started adding guy lines and the experienced campers used them. My point being that a few extra guy points can make a large difference in wind performance.

Another idea might be an inner tent itself made of that net and the entire inner tent would act as an inner tensioning device.

Extra guy points is a good idea.

What about exoskeleton tents - is there a way to directly connect guys to the poles without them slipping along the length of the pole?


Also, would want to spread the connection point so as not to localise stress on the pole.

Also, given that poles are the weak link in pretty much any tent (that isn't UV damaged) why not use those thick poles like are available in Stephenson tents? Do they become too brittle? Some flex is good of course but you don't want a tent being routinely flattened to the ground as could happen in strong winds - poles will bend -or at best living space will be... ummm... compromised. Anyone experiment with thicker poles?

Edited by stu_m on 09/12/2010 16:34:35 MDT.

Re: "I was imagineering out loud of course (still am)." Good job, because small hammocks have in fact been used for decades at Everest's North Col and other places. Both old and new videos of Everest climbs show VE-25s and MH Trango tents being held down with gear hammocks and other small hammocks thrown over the top then staked out.

BTW, my thoughts had to do with this thread. That is keeping in mind the "less than 3 kg " bit and assuming backpacking not basecamping.
Franco

Well, the MacPac Olympus comes in at 3kg (trail weight, though I always carry extra pegs), and is a tried and trusted design. Most any tunnel tent can be modified to accept trekking poles to support the poles from downward gusts, including the Nemo airbeam technology. I have a Nemo HypnoPQ that I am willing to sell if you want to give it a try...it's part of my Earthquake sale, and is in very good condition:

http://19rice.com/bd/633/tag/Nemo#entry_136

It's a shame the trekking pole mod doesn't come standard in most tents. Side winds are the biggest issue for sure, but careful staking and guying can mitigate some of this.

Edited by retropump on 09/12/2010 20:35:21 MDT.

Rab summit mountain bivi fits these criteria.

http://us.rab.uk.com/equipment/bivvis/summit_mountain_bivi---140/

There may be a couple of Lightwave Tents that may fit the criteria.

The G2 UltriX sticks out as having fared well in recent wind tunnel testing::



I should have my hands on a Vaude Power Odyssee soon to check out further. There was a member here who bought one a few months back and reported that it came in around 1.8kg minimum - which is well below specs. Aye.

> What about exoskeleton tents - is there a way to directly connect guys to the
> poles without them slipping along the length of the pole?

I suspect that MANY designers have wished for something like that! I know I have. However, my experience has been that good guy rope attachments - ones that spread the load for a few inches along the pole seam, do work quite well enough. The pole keeps the tent up and the guy rope holds the fly against the wind. It is the fly, not the poles, which cop the wind after all.

> given that poles are the weak link in pretty much any tent
Don't think I will agree with you there. It is not hard to get a moderately balanced distribution of strength between the poles and the fabric. As for the next bit ...

> don't want a tent being routinely flattened to the ground as could happen in strong winds
If your tent gets 'routinely flattened to the ground' then you have the wrong tent (and inadequate guy ropes) for the conditions, and the poles are not going to last any time at all. For that matter, neither is the fabric.

Cheers

Aaron - let us know how you get on with the Power Odyssey, what the workmanship is like and total weight etc.

Re Lightwave - some great tents in the range but I really don't like inner pitch first and I think it increases the chance of bending poles if you have to pitch/strike in heavy wind.

In fact I think I will buy a Wild Country Sololite which is exoskeleton - increasing the chances I can put it up/take it down (and repitch if necessary) in strong wind. I'm not saying this tent meets the criteria of my original post (in fact I would say it almost certainly couldn't take that amount of wind from the side, but maybe it will take 60 km/h from the side which is more than many 2 pole tunnels can do comfortably I believe (it is scary how little wind it can take to damage a tent). It is solid, cheap and worthy of an experiment.

At the end of the day I am not going to be routinely camping in such strong winds and the post was more to get a safety factor in case bad weather caught me in an exposed location.

I have dismissed many fine single wall shelters and would get a Hilleberg Soulo except that for my purposes they are quite expensive.

I will search a little further to see whether there are any tents with internal guying that fit the bill.

Roger - the Sololite has some hubs that would facilitate direct attachment of guys. I'm thinking that some shock cord and guys on them may help (particularly for side loading). Additionally I can experiment with attaching at other points along the main ridge pole.

You may be right that for tents generally the pole strength is more or less appropriate for the strength of the other elements of the tent. However, most reports seem to be of broken or buckled poles (as opposed to ripped fabric or something) and I tend to therefore think that this is the weakest link.

Going back to what you where saying about the need for a survey of tents fulfilling the criteria of this post... I personally would find more interesting a comparison of the archetypes (2 pole vs 3 pole tunnel, single pole, 3 pole geodesic, etc). Unfortunately the Outdoor Magazin wind machine tests seem to indicate signifiant variability within a "type" of tent, so you would need to investigate that to some extent. One approach could be to pick "best of breed" for each of the types and say this is the most performance you can hope to get from this design.

Alternatively you could investigate some of the things explored in these posts - eg. testing tent A with standard poles and then oversized.

Don't know if the above suggestions are practical, but it's definitely something I'd love to see researched in a methodical way - clearly you cannot rely on tent manufacturers to give reliable data (though a precious few will speak candidly about their products).

What would other people like to see "reviewed" - a product or a design?

Cheers
Stuart

Edited by stu_m on 09/14/2010 04:24:49 MDT.

about 4lbs, 2 poles, 3 great reinforced guy-out tabs/triangles on 3 of the sides and then additional guy you can sit up in it and it has an additional 4 guy-out spots, one on each of the four pole corners.

It is fairly low to the ground and takes wind great. Additionally has 6 stake-out points along the bottom of it, one at each corner and then two in the middle of the long sides. side note, being put up very taught and firm, even small pieces of hail or raindrops sound very loud. These pictures are not in-situ shots of bad weather, I'm in the tent then, but it held very nicely during storms on rainier. But they give you some more info, since there is a dearth of information about this tent on the web.

"What would other people like to see "reviewed" - a product or a design?"

A product. A good design doesn't guarantee a good execution. :)

Not from 'any direction' but my quaint little Outer Limits 'Backpacker' tent has taken around 100kmh with me in it, and it didn't even flinch. They're pretty cheap, and I take mine up to our highest point every year and spend the night in it. It'd be getting on 7 years old now but still performs well. And yes, I've set it up single-handedly in a gale before with no worries.

It comes in at 2.3kg (actual weight fully packed), sleeps 2 comfortably, and has a front vestibule for gear/cooking/shoes. The interior height is easily enough to sit up in, and two people can sit if you have company.

Their website is outer-limits.com.au , think they currently retail for around the AU$150 mark. At least, thats what I bought mine for 7 years ago. I certinaly couldn't imagine it being any more than AU$200.

Regards - boingk

The Power Odyssee arrived today and it was one heavy box: UPS = 8lbs. Of course I did what any reasonable person would - I went and weighed the components to my UL conscience chagrin:

Poles = 23.1 oz. / 655g
Fly + Body together = 4 lb. 11.3 oz. / 2106g
Stuff sack = 3 oz. / 85g

Min. weight = 6.14375 lbs.

Vaude list the complete weight as 2.85kg, so near enough.


There's a small portion of the door that is mesh only I think?

What's it like to put up and get into/out of?

Can the top vents be closed?

Edited by stu_m on 09/22/2010 21:38:09 MDT.

http://www.thenorthface.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=10384&storeId=207&catalogId=10201&langId=-1&from=subCat&parent_category_rn=11750&variationId=1W3

"Withstanding winds of 130.2 mph, you'll be blown away by how resilient this two-person tent just is."


I owned this tent, and have to say it felt bulletproof, and was light (under 4 lbs packed weight)...

Cheers

Edited by king2005ify on 09/22/2010 23:28:21 MDT.

> What about exoskeleton tents - is there a way to directly connect guys to the
> poles without them slipping along the length of the pole?

I suspect that MANY designers have wished for something like that! I know I have. However, my experience has been that good guy rope attachments - ones that spread the load for a few inches along the pole seam, do work quite well enough. The pole keeps the tent up and the guy rope holds the fly against the wind. It is the fly, not the poles, which cop the wind after all.

I think Hilleberg figured out a very elegant and practical solution to this with their Soulo. From the moment I first saw the guyline attachments on the fly I was very impressed:

But doesn't its strength depend on facing the wind - basically the pressure of the wind through the vent blows it up so it can't be squashed by the wind?

It must get windy inside?

Wonder what it'll take from the side?

Stay away from the TNF Spectrum 23. It is a condensation machine. There is very little ventilation within the tent. The vestibule is really tiny. It is also a 1.5 person shelter. Two people and the sleeping pads would overlap.

However, these are usually on massive sale at the end of the season so you could pick up a decent deal....

@Stu -

>There's a small portion of the door that is mesh only I >think?

Yes, you are correct on the interior and there is a prominent covered vent above the exterior door of the vestibule that is permanently open and mesh covered.



>What's it like to put up and get into/out of?

I set it up in the living room and it went quickly and smoothly. The poles are slipped over the newer style male inserts on each of the ends and then the clips are attached. The front smaller pole goes on first, which is a little unusual.



>Can the top vents be closed?

The real question is, "can they be opened?" I found that the hoops would not hold their shape and the nylon just smashed right down on the mesh. The inside has small zippers at the apex that open to access the outer peak vents in order to open or close. I think they will hold their shape better with side tension from additional stakes along the middle of the sides. The vents seem well designed and placed.



My overall impression is that this is a stout tent with strong bones and lightweight skin. All of the seams are nicely taped and the prices is quite reasonable. There are very few tents in this weight range that share the features and the pole architectural details with the clip system truly set it apart. That said, it is is still a bit heavy for my purposes, given the size of the interior and vestibule. It would likely perform beautifully, but I think that for the weight, I would prefer a Bibler Fitzroy still, even sans vestibule. With the price factor thrown in, however, the Vaude becomes especially attractive.

Edited by biointegra on 10/21/2010 17:13:44 MDT.