> Is the ripstop denier in the SL3 generally considered more resistant than
> the Silnylon or Cuben Fiber?

This is an interesting area where experience is largely anecdotal. However, I'll give my 2c.

I have had silnylon in a 100+ kph storm with no problems at all. I am not sure I would be game to use Cuban in this manner. WHY not?

Because the huge elasticity in silnylon allows it to absorb sudden gusts without creating extreme localised stress. It stretches, and recovers. The non-stretch nature of Cuban does not do this, and I suspect you could reach burst-strength at some critical point on the tent fabric quite easily.

A PU-coated ripstop which is *heavier* than silnylon could be as strong or stronger. I say 'could be', not 'will be', because we know that PU-coated fabrics are NOT as strong as silnylon on a weight-for-weight basis. The PU coating can actually weaken the fabric: it localises stress.

The silicone coating on the other hand actually diffuses stress, making a silicone-coated fabric stronger under some tests than the uncoated base fabric.

Cheers

Roger: Do you have any sense of what double poling adds to the wind equation? It makes sense that it might double static load capacity (ability to support snow) but I don't think the same could be said for wind resistance - though it must help some too I'd assume.

Have a look at the Wilderness Equipment First Arrow... it is a classic 2 1/2 person 3kg tent that is well known in Australian alpine bushwalking. IMHO it is superior to the Macpac Olympus another well known tent downunder. Ooops which I see Roger has already held up.

I have had mine handle typical hostile mountain conditions in the European and Australian Alps. The guy lines attachment and pole sleeves are the most bomber thing I have seen in a tent. And the little features make the usability and livability quite amazing. I have never seen anything to come close in the Alpine tent stakes.

http://www.wildequipment.com.au/tent_detail.php?

WE First Arrow in Eastern Himalaya
Code=WE1ACOMSIL

Edited by electricpanda on 09/11/2010 02:21:51 MDT.

I'm interested in the Vaude Power Odyssee as well - though I've also seen reports that the weight is significantly understaded (I think someone said it was 2.85 kg which is still OK for what is probably quite a solid tent). Not much info/reviews on it tho :(

This is interesting too... given that the manufacturer identifies other 2 and three pole tents in their range as not winter tents:

http://www.walking-away.de/en/salka-neues-leichtgewichts-trekkingzelt-von-fjallraven-angekundigt/


Of all the tents mentioned so far and discounting the single walled ones (because I'm not sure how livable they are outside of winter) I have to say the Hilleberg Soulo appears, on paper, to be the "best". good heritage (no question marks over whether it's decent or not), exoskeleton - as easy (probably) easier than tunnels to put up in wind.

Keep the suggestions coming though :)

Anyone used Nemo tents with the air beams? I like the sound of being bashed in the face if it means the "poles" can't bend.


Also, does pitching a pyramid with a "nest" mean that you turn an outer pitch first into an inner pitch first (how does the pole connect to the fly via the nest?)?

You can pitch a pyramid with a nest, like the Hex/SL3, inner or outer first. Inner first is easier because the nest gives you the right shape then you just throw the fly over and attach to the same pegs as the nest.

In heavy rain and wind you can peg the fly out in roughly the right place, slide the nest underneath and position it while it's undercover - re-peg where necessary. Then insert the pole and fettle away.

In-case anyone is not aware, the fabric used on the current SL3 is very different to that used on the old Hex3. It's lighter and looks less well coated somehow.

Thanks Roger. The information available is often overwhelming and you do a great job of crunching it down.

"In-case anyone is not aware, the fabric used on the current SL3 is very different to that used on the old Hex3. It's lighter and looks less well coated somehow."

Golite's website says it is:
"15 Denier Ripstop Nylon; Silicone/PU 1200mm Waterproof Fire Retardant"

I think they changed from 30 denier to 15 denier this year (2010 model).

Most silnylon tents are 30 denier, but without a PU coating. The coating adds waterproofing (eliminating misting), fire retardancy, and probably some strength.

Yeah, the Hex had a stated hydrostatic head of 3500mm. 1200mm is just about adequate, assuming the fabric does not degrade much - which PU coated fabric are known to do.

The SL3 is lighter than the Hex3, so it's a trade off. But I'm not entirely sure that it's the "bomber" tent that the original Hex is. Still a good tent, but a slightly different range of uses.


"Golite's website says it is:
"15 Denier Ripstop Nylon; Silicone/PU 1200mm Waterproof Fire Retardant"

I think they changed from 30 denier to 15 denier this year (2010 model).

Most silnylon tents are 30 denier, but without a PU coating. The coating adds waterproofing (eliminating misting), fire retardancy, and probably some strength."

@Stu-

One other tent to consider is the Bibler Tempest, which shares architectural styling with the Fitzroy, but is a bit narrower and taller profile and includes vestibule(s) for the same weight.

I have only used a Tempest in winter, so I cannot comment, but the Fitzroy is surprisingly quite livable in most seasons. It has excellent ventilation with the large screen doors, which have an adequate awning for covering the opening.

Having owned and use many tents over the years, from 'mids, to Hilleberg, tunnels and geo-domes, the Fitzroy is hands down the sturdiest and strongest tent of them all. The Hillebergs I find to be the most livable overall, but the Fitzroy has a much smaller footprint and can be pitched far more places and takes wind from any direction.

Now if only we can get one with a built-in Cuben vestibule and using the newer breathable Cuben laminate. ;)

Hi Stuart

Lots of manufacturers offer the double-pole option simply because it is very easy to make the pole sleeve large enough to take 2 poles. Frankly, I think that's why you see it mentioned so often. I question how many have ever implemented the idea for real.

But do they help? Well, that depends on the conditions. This tent:

has single 7.5 mm carbon fibre poles and silnylon fabric. It took winds well over 100 kph from the rear end on a saddle one night - for further details see "When Things Go Wrong". (Stupid place to be camped ...) It showed no sign of stress with the wind end-on. My wife watched the tent behaviour for a bit, and then went to sleep.

If you had this tent side-on to the wind it would be a bit more loaded, for sure, but the closely-spaced tent poles with the double guy ropes were able to take some pretty bad weather on another night. The photo does show the wind side-on - it was taken the day before the peak.

The killer is the wind gusting straight down, as I have mentioned. Yes, the extra strength of double poles would of course help here, but you would be better advised imho to use internal guy ropes across the tent to stop the poles from buckling. The weight of the internal guys is negligible, and their contribution is actually significantly larger than that from double poles. Yeah - you have to dodge the guys when you sit up, but we are talking some pretty savage conditions here, and under those conditions you LIKE seeing the extra strength! Caveat: the tent must be designed to use internal guy ropes: most are not.

Cheers

> you would be better advised imho to use internal guy ropes
> across the tent to stop the poles from buckling. The weight
> of the internal guys is negligible, and their contribution
> is actually significantly larger than that from double
> poles.

Interestingly, Stephenson's "Climber" model has these standard (I think they are an option on other models, but did not check). The description says:

Comes with windstablizers because we figured climbers would need it. If you are not going to use with 60mph+ winds then just ask to have without the windstablizers and save 2 ounces!

-- MV

What about the Sierra Designs Convert 2?

It's single wall, but has provision for internal guying. Design is not unlike Bibler itent and similar. Wonder how strong it is....

Just to add to my confusion:

* Vango do not claim an increase in strength when using TBS... just that it makes the tent more liveable (by reducing flexing). However, TBS is a simpler bracing than available on the Stephenson's or Sierra Design tents.

* Robens Green Hawk as tested here http://www.outdoor-magazin.com/zelte/test-robens-green-hawk.424497.d_odc_produkt_testbericht.3.htm They seem to be saying that the tent will take 120 km/h from the side and it is a 2 pole tunnel with long poles (given that users sleep parallel to the poles). Again, that could just be my German ;) It's heavier than my target weight but if that claim is true, it redefines what I thought about 2 pole tunnels and regardless of pedigree you can't trust a tent until you know exactly what it can do as there seems to be too much variation even amongst 2 pole tunnels. Maybe they meant it would take wind from either end. Regardless, of whether the end or the side, that is an achievement for what essentially looks like a big floppy kite.

Edited by stu_m on 09/11/2010 19:06:04 MDT.

"In-case anyone is not aware, the fabric used on the current SL3 is very different to that used on the old Hex3. It's lighter and looks less well coated somehow."

Golite's website says it is:
"15 Denier Ripstop Nylon; Silicone/PU 1200mm Waterproof Fire Retardant"

I think they changed from 30 denier to 15 denier this year (2010 model).

Most silnylon tents are 30 denier, but without a PU coating. The coating adds waterproofing (eliminating misting), fire retardancy, and probably some strength."

---

only if the coating is heavier than the silicone coating
of the previous fabric.

Most fire retardant fabrics (ie melt away from open
flame and go out) for lighter tents, are achieved by using weaker fabrics, not a coating.

PU generally weakens the fabric it is
applied to. Any old timers remember why Kelty did not
coat their pack cloth on their frame packs?

A 15 denier fabric with a PU coating would make the fabric
much less strong, maybe lighter, and maybe pass flammability tests. Might be an advance in some ways.

It may not be the fabric of choice for 100 mph winds.

Edited by oware on 09/11/2010 21:54:13 MDT.

"Because the huge elasticity in silnylon allows it to absorb sudden gusts without creating extreme localised stress. It stretches, and recovers. The non-stretch nature of Cuban does not do this, and I suspect you could reach burst-strength at some critical point on the tent fabric quite easily."

Seeing as cuben fiber was developed for use as a spinnaker for racing sail boats (winning ones at that, America cubed,
hence the name cuben fiber) the correct weight of cuben should be fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%C2%B3
Construction may be different than silnylon tho.

Don't get me wrong, at this time I think silnylon is the best for all around shelter use if you factor in cost and care.

"A 15 denier fabric with a PU coating would make the fabric
much less strong, maybe lighter, and maybe pass flammability tests. Might be an advance in some ways."

It's interesting and unexpected that a PU coating weakens the fabric rather than strengthening it!

My father is a WWII vet and was on Okinawa during an extreme typhoon. We were talking about his experiences and he told me about quonset huts (the rounded prefab buildings used in the South Pacific, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quonset_hut) and how they were secured. He said they had a series of cables strung across the arched sections and staked into the ground.

It struck me that just about any tent design could be secured using a net and stakes. Imagine a Spectra line net and a pile of Ti stakes.

I can see that it may help to keep the tent down (not fly away) but it would not necessarily keep it up (pole breakage)
The main problem I see with that is if you use a superstrong thin net (say Dyneema) it would cut through the fabric with abrasion . if you use a thicker somewhat softer version it would be too bulky.
Franco

No personal experience at those wind speeds (yet) but in terms of commercially available tents the Stephenson's Warmlite 2C, 2R or 3R would all fit the bill, according to their website specs, and all would come in well below the requested weight.

With the 3R a 3rd pole can be added (though they stress not really needed) and internal wind stabilisers are an available option on any of these models (and come as standard on the 2C).