Hey guys and gals.
I'm about done with my first bottle of yellow heat which Ive been using on my caldera cone with anti gravity gear stove. I'm curious to try out denatured alcohol from REI http://www.rei.com/product/614112 but am wondering if someone has already used this and can compare its performance to yellow heet or help me understand the advantages/disadvantages of either fuel.

I'm just in the process of switching (at least partially) to an alcohol stove from an isobutane canister stove, so I've researched the fuels a bit.

HEET is primarily methanol.

Denatured alcohol is mostly ethanol, with a small amount of methanol added to make it undrinkable. You don't have to go to REI for it; it will undoubtedly be cheaper in the paint department of your local Home Depot or Lowe's or KMart or similar.

Or , if legal in your state, you can get pure ethanol at your liquor store, so you can mix up a cocktail while cooking your dinner with the same stuff. :-)

My understanding from my reading is that burning methanol (HEET) releases methane which is a greenhouse gas. I have no idea how much of it gets into the air. Certainly not as much as issues from your average cow! Denatured alcohol, being mostly ethanol, would therefore be a more environmentally friendly fuel.

Any chemists on this forum, please correct me if I'm wrong!

Edited by hikinggranny on 08/31/2010 14:08:46 MDT.

It is difficult to make an accurate comparison of two fuels unless you get the MSDS sheets on each. That is because there are all varieties of denatured alcohol. Many stores will not offer the MSDS sheet, so you won't know what you have (and maybe the store doesn't either). Some stores will, and that is a good place to start.

--B.G.--

I've used both. Truthfully, I see no practical difference. For me, I would just get whichever is cheaper / easier to get.

(Benjamin, ever the pragmatist)

--B.G.--

Here is a posting I made several months ago on a similar topic:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=28187&skip_to_post=234346#234346

By the way, it is unlikely that burning methanol releases any significant amounts of methane. Burning organic chemicals and almost anything that burns cleanly (except maybe hydrogen) creates CO2 and water (and CO from incomplete combustion). CO2 and water vapor are both greenhouse gases by the classic definition. Even if methane were released, the methane itself would then burn in the flame, the amounts would be trivial, and would be dwarfed by the most prolific source - bovine flatulence - yes, the "wind" from cows. We haven't come up with a solution to that problem yet so you shouldn't worry about methane from backpacking stoves. Anything we burn will add to the greenhouse gas issue.

http://www.geartalkwithjasonklass.com/2009/10/heet-vs-slx-denatured-alcohol.html

good comparison video.

looks to be about the same, buy whats cheaper:P

In theory, ethanol has higher energy output than methanol and thus would be more efficient. However, methanol has lower boiling point so is easier to get going in colder temps.

See here

This is my current favorite (95% Ethanol); Home Depot carries it in quart size, as well as Amazon



msds sheet can be found here: (cut + paste, as link does not seem to work for this)

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ok28ZInE-iIJ:www.rockler.com/tech/RTD20000423AA.pdf+klean-strip+green+denatured+alcohol&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgyuD3n950PLDv7jQUtQSmIXlqvwr7dLfifg7-EtkkCD-66eCElzRLGxo3hih_aBivWDKqDd2yh4NZnZnMX0I0CQJQT-1sSZK7wbcs82N3NXqGxvc3PSXlm4dMIQlEy55FGpIQq&sig=AHIEtbQvCI7E-duU4dEV-paXuwdJS0p9LA

Edited by biointegra on 09/01/2010 00:06:41 MDT.

I also just started to use an alky stove this past month. I wanted something lighter than my cannister when its just me using it.
I went ahead and made a few gram weenie stoves, using aluminum squirt bottles that I found at the dollar store. I went thru three, one that I crushed/deformed putting the top into the bottom, and two more working out the holes to fit my Soloist pot. With a double row of holes, the flame blossom was too large! Single row of holes brought it down to just about right, but I think I will build another with smaller diameter holes to shrink it even further.
After building the stoves, I read up on fuels on another thread, and bought Heet, and alcohol at the local ACE hardware. I then went to my kitchen stove top, and spent some time boiling water!
My results basically went like this; with 3 tsp, or roughly 1/2 oz. I was able to either boil or just about boil water in around 5-6 min on average. Details: with straight Heet, my burn time lengthed to almost 9 min, but I barely got the boil. With alcohol I had a rolling boil in the 5 minutes. With a mixture of Heet and 70% Isopropyl alcohol, I had a boil in a bit over 5 min.
In summary, the boils worked best with denatured alcohol, then the mixture, and finally Heet.
I live in Idaho, at about 2500 ft, and I used my well water, which is relatively cold.
The last trip into the high country, I used the alcohol, and with cold mountain water, was consistently boiling water with 1/2 oz on the little stove. I was really impressed that I could use this setup for all my cooking needs.

Steve, your fuel comparisons are interesting. Unfortunately, they don't mean much unless you can give some numbers. For example:

1. How much water were you boiling? 16 ounces is kind of a standard quantity.
2. What was the top diameter of your alcohol stove, versus what was the bottom diameter of your cook pot? What was the maximum capacity of the cook pot?
3. Roughly what was the ambient air temperature for the boiling test?
4. Did you use a windscreen around this?
5. Did you use Yellow HEET or Red HEET? What kind of denatured alcohol? There are many different blends of it.

--B.G.--

I have been concerned that the options available at Home Depot, KMart, etc. in the paint thinner aisle would contain a trace chemical that I should not burn near my food.

Are there concerns founded??

Concerns? Yes.

Serious concerns? Not for me. I keep my cooking area ventilated.

Get the MSDS sheet on any fuel that you intend to use near your food.

--B.G.--

Use everclear. Very pure, no toxicity issues and it doubles for cocktail hour!

Bob, here is the rest of my info:
I was using 16 oz of water
The top diameter of my gram weenie stove was 1 7/8" and the Soloist pot is 4 1/2" diameter on the bottom. Its a 1.1L pot
Air temp was about 74, it was inside on the cook top with the fan running, no wind. (I have been using my old MSR windscreen in the field, with perfect results)
I was using Sunnyside alcohol, which says something about fuel for Alcohol appliances and marine applications or some such. I was using the yellow HEET variety.

This is the stove with blossom around my pot

This is my empty stove and cook pot

Hope that helps some!

I switched from Kleen Strip Green to Everclear 190 because of concerns about toxicity. I eat and drink out of my Caldera Cone caddy, which also carries my fuel. KSGreen has up to 10% methyl isobutyl ketone which I don't know much about - but if it's anything like methyl ethyl ketone I don't want anything to do with it. Everclear costs more but as noted it's multiuse and at a bit under $2 per night out (boiling 1 quart of water in the evening and 2 in the morning for 2 people) it's a pretty minor component of an outing. I did have to get a state permit to buy it but that wasn't a big deal.

Edited by WillWeb on 09/02/2010 07:43:01 MDT.

Most of this season I've been using pure methanol since denatured alcohol isn't legal for sale in Canada. In my tests at home using 65F water and the same stove/windscreen setup I've normally used 18-20g of methanol to reach a rolling boil. The lowest of the 15 or so tests was 17.6g.

Today I received some methylated spirits (90% ethanol, 10% methanol) that I bought on eBay UK. I achieved a rolling boil about 30 seconds faster and used just 13.1g of fuel. That significantly lower than any previous result. It is just one piece of data but it's such a significantly outlier that it seems clear than ethanol is signficantly more efficient. This coincides with BPLs testing that you need about 25% less ethanol (by weight) than methanol for the same result.

Edited by dandydan on 09/02/2010 18:03:43 MDT.

I understand that you have to be careful with denatured ethanol in the U.S. Apparently there really is no regulation of what adulterants are added, so you can find all dorts of bizzare stuff. Granted, if you ventilate well I'm not sure it's a direct health concern, but why chance it if obviously better alternatives are available? Also, the adulterants might leave gunk in your stove.

I also have settled upon the Everlear 190 thing. Expensive, but multi-use. In a pinch I've used HEET on many occasions. But there are certainly health concerns about methanol, too. It is rather more poisonous than ethanol. Still trivially so, probably, but again why use it if you don't have to?

Unfortunately, some of us live in California, and 190 Everclear cannot be sold. We would have to drive to Nevada for it.

Fortunately, denatured alcohol is conveniently available in home supply stores.

--B.G.--

Oh, come on, Bob. Don't try to pretend you're not looking for every possible opportunity to let something stay in Vegas?