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Mystery Ranch Backpacks equals Dana Design quality?
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Richard Beckwith
(Hardcore) - F
Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 14:00:36 MDT Print View

Subject: Ignorant abut Backpacking
Posted: 07/21/2006 13:56:40 MDT by Benjamin Tang (ben2world)

"Backpacking is a masochistic sport, always has been, always will be. It is somewhat painful no matter how light your pack is. This is why I seriously question many of these posters...many dont seem to realize that backpacking is a "so youre into pain and suffering" sporting activity."

You are showing your ignorance again. Backpacking can be back breaking -- but only if you choose to go that way.

You have obviously never tried lightweight backpacking so you really should either (1) give it a try or (2) shut your mouth.
----------------------------------------

Now I KNOW you have never done any real backpacking before! Dude, shut your modem down and get off the net and go take an Outward Bound or NOLS course.

Turn your system off...stop talking about gear and actually go out on the trail.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 14:06:14 MDT Print View

I did a four-day hike in Colorado (Weminuche) early this month. I am off to Canada (Whistler) for another four-day hike next week. Come mid August, I've a two-day hike up Mt. Whitney.

None of them is back breaking because I pack efficiently (and safely as well).

Give UL a try -- then come back and write about something that you actually have a working knowledge of!

End of story.

Edited by ben2world on 07/21/2006 14:09:05 MDT.

Richard Beckwith
(Hardcore) - F
Re: Benjamin Tang basic economics on 07/21/2006 14:11:03 MDT Print View

First you sell out to the Chinese.

Second you sell out to the Vietnamese.

Third you sell out to India.

Then you move most of your manufacturing and industrial capabilities to these countries.

Then you manufacture stuff previously made in America for dirt cheap labor prices and resell to Americans at Wal-Mart.

By doing this, you destroy America's position as a superpower by moving your manufacturing capabilities to China and Vietnam. No country has ever been a true superpower without robust manufacturing capabilities.

You also leave American citizens high and dry cause all that is left is crap service jobs. Service jobs are mostly low skill, low wage, high stress jobs. Manufacturing makes the money...service jobs just makes your blood pressure go up.

But its fair cause its "all just economics!" Take a basic economics course, you dummy! Sheeez, some people just dont understand cut-throat, anything goes capitalism. Hell, I can make money by selling my own Mother to China...hey I think I will do that!

Richard Beckwith
(Hardcore) - F
Re: Re: Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 14:12:06 MDT Print View

Those are short trips Benjamin...you ever done a REAL backpacking trip before? Meaning more than a week long?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 14:13:04 MDT Print View

Wow. Just read through this. Richard you are one angry man. Oh and we do get out. I can't speak for the others but I average about 30 nights a year in the backcountry. I guess you really have not seen to many well built light packs in your day but let me enLIGHTen you. ULA, Six Moon Designs, Go Lite, Granite Gear. These small companies make great products, why do I know that? Because I have 2 ULA packs, and one Granite Gear pack. Yes I am a gearhead. Just like most of the people on this site. So what. We all do get out and practice what we preach. Some more than others. From your holy than though attitude, I guess you are jobless or in college, not married and have sooooo much time on your hands that you can be the ever sooo rad mountain man that could teach us idiots a thing or two. What ever. You're rude and obnoxious....go away.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re:: Benjamin Tang basic economics on 07/21/2006 14:23:17 MDT Print View

My time does not allow me to go on hiking trips that are much longer in duration. And in any case, the major difference is simply the inclusion of more food and fuel -- which I keep very light weight.

My favorite thing to do -- more than even hiking -- is traveling. Each year, I pick one or two adjacent countries and backpack for a month. No itineraries except for the beginning and return dates, and not knowing a soul there. Traveling and hiking take up 99.99% of my vacation days.

But enough about me, what hikes do you do?

Now back to economics. Do this for me. Completely cast aside the notion that "it just doesn't seem right that we keep selling out to the sweat laborers in Asia" -- and SERIOUSLY think through this:

FACT: The US has been shedding manufacturing jobs just about EVERY SINGLE YEAR FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS!!!

QUESTION: Why is it, do you think, that our standard of living has gotten higher and higher in every single decade of the last 50 years?

The phenomenon needs to be studied, understood and cherished -- NOT taken for granted and lightly tossed out because of IGNORANCE! Refer back to what you have learned from your studies in Economics.

Think through and come back with a satisfactory answer that explains the above. Then we'll talk.

Edited by ben2world on 07/21/2006 14:33:22 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 14:24:00 MDT Print View

Richard, my diagnosis of your condition is...

Ultralight envy

Edited by jshann on 08/14/2006 18:01:21 MDT.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: hardcore attitude on 07/21/2006 14:35:11 MDT Print View

"I question many of the posters here because I have lurked here for a while and many here seem to be little more than Internet gearheads. Many of the posters here I dont believe could hack real backpacking and arent really interested in actually going out on the trail."

It seems like some strange form of OCD...cutting out EVERY ounce of weight, entering your "base weight" in MS Excel spreadsheets. Very odd indeed. I am glad I experienced backpacking a lot before ultra-lightweight backpacking becamse this marketing fad it is right now. Many seem to be obsessed with spreadsheets, cutting every ounce out and other oddness."

Gee, you get on an Internet forum with topics like "gear" and "gear list" and you're surprised at what you see? Hehehe-- DOH!

Of course there are a lot of people obsessed with getting the weight trimmed down to the minimum. The hiking equipment industry got out of control and there is a little reactionary over-swing and some evangelizing. It's a given for me that weighing and analyzing each item that I take on a hike is the only way to learn how to get it light-lighter-lightest. I found my limits of comfort and safety and I won't go where a lot of people have to get fantic-fringe pack weights. It is interesting and no doubt a hobby for many here.

If you make it past the first couple forums, you'll see all kinds of threads on trips and places to go and not nearly so nerdy.

As to hauling a 50 pound pack, I've done that and if I can get the same quality of food, hydration and shelter from a 20 pound load and enjoy the trip more, why in the world would I want to haul a bunch of junk I don't need? I see no gain (or manliness) in hauling an overbuilt pack, a sleeping bag made for -30F when I'm hiking in moderate temperatures, a shelter that take sup four times the resources needed, or wearing big heavy boots. If you don't buy into it, more power to ya, but you just walked into the Church of Lightness and told the faithful they are heathens! We say here, "thou shalt hike thy own hike."

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
HYOH ( plus a little NOLS action) on 07/21/2006 14:45:25 MDT Print View

Richard, since you bring up NOLS, you might be interested in this----
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/pr_20051130.html

You know, you really should let people hike their own hike--- rather than excercising the nuclear option, you might make a few friends on this site. Use your Mystery Ranch pack to do whatever it is you do. No one's stopping you. Hell, I don't even think it's a ridiculous approach.

I used to use a Dana for heavy hauling, Winter ski-packing and the like. Now I can do the same things (apart from expedition mtneering and schlepping tons of tech climbing gear) w/ much lighter equipment. There really has been a revolution in materials technology over the last decade and some of us are taking advantage of it. The 45-50 lb. loads I once carried for a week to 10 days are now down to about 20 lbs. I don't need a pack that makes a 50 lb. load feel like 20, when the 22 oz. ULA pack I use makes 20 lbs. literally feel like I'm not carrying a load at all. Furthermore, since this is a concern of yours, a lot of UL gear can be found that is made domestically, cottage industry style. In fact the bulk of my core UL gear is made in the USA--- and I wasn't even trying.

Hee hee, Dale--- same message, eh?

Edited by kdesign on 07/21/2006 14:52:53 MDT.

Brian James
(bjamesd) - F

Locale: South Coast of BC
American jobs on 07/21/2006 14:57:55 MDT Print View

Dear Richard,

Do you own an American car? If you do, your car has chinese parts in it. You have paid to support the Chinese manufacturing industry: you have sent your money to China.

Every single American vehicle sold today has Chinese parts in it; even the ones featured in "buy American to support Americans" ads. All of them.

Two years from now, most Delphi parts will be Mexican-made and a large
portion of GM cars will ship here from China fully-assembled.

Welcome to the global economy... see you on the bus!

Brian

PS the two chinese machinists who work in the production facility at my office tell me that they enjoyed a higher standard of living and had better purchasing power in northern China than they do here. But then again I'm Canadian; I am probably taking a job from an American too!

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
that UH backpack site URL on 07/21/2006 14:58:18 MDT Print View

John--- URL must have changed. Looks like it now links to a generic Viagra retail site. :-O

Richard Beckwith
(Hardcore) - F
Re: Dana Gleason quote on 07/21/2006 15:00:12 MDT Print View

‘‘Ultralight is such an easy concept to grasp,'' Gleason conceded. But for many backpackers, ultralight packs can't carry a ‘‘real world'' load, he added.

‘‘Our packs are for people who truly use the gear and don't just read the magazines and dream about it,'' Gleason said. ‘‘And it will last 15 to 17 years. The material has a lifetime guarantee.''

http://www.strongcopywriting.com/bozeman-montana-53-bozeman-backpacks-lead-the-pack.html

--------------------------------------------


Said so well...ultra-light is for short trips, posers, wanna-bes and people who read about this stuff on the net or in magazines more than they actually hump a ruck.

Richard Beckwith
(Hardcore) - F
Re: American jobs on 07/21/2006 15:08:23 MDT Print View

Dear Richard,

Do you own an American car? If you do, your car has chinese parts in it. You have paid to support the Chinese manufacturing industry: you have sent your money to China.
-----------------------------------------

I am already well aware of such things. I was taught in economic Geography courses in the early nineties that China would be taking away most...almost all...of America's robust manufacturing capabilities.

>Every single American vehicle sold today has Chinese parts in it; even the ones featured in "buy American to support Americans" ads. All of them.
----------------------------------------

no sh*t, sherlock. What do you think I am upset about?

>Two years from now, most Delphi parts will be Mexican-made and a large
portion of GM cars will ship here from China fully-assembled.
------------------------------------------

I dont doubt it at all.

>Welcome to the global economy... see you on the bus!
----------------------------------------

Yes...the "global economy" sucks. Goodbye America as a superpower!

>Brian

>PS the two chinese machinists who work in the production facility at my office tell me that they enjoyed a higher standard of living and had better purchasing power in northern China than they do here.
-------------------------------------------

I dont doubt it at all.

> But then again I'm Canadian; I am probably taking a job from an American too!
__________________________________________

You should be so proud of yourself for taking an American job!

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Troll alert on 07/21/2006 15:09:07 MDT Print View

Oookaay---looks like attempts at meaningful communication are wasted.

I'm outta this thread --- the earlier poster was right--- don't u'all feed dis motha troll, no mo.

Robert McGaughey
(havoc) - F

Locale: North Texas
American jobs on 07/21/2006 15:14:55 MDT Print View

This is a discussion forum about lightweight backpacking. Economics could be discussed at http://amazingforums.com/forum/IRVIN/forum.html

Regardless of our different approaches to enjoying the outdoors, I believe civility is still in order. Enjoy your day.

Russell Swanson
(rswanson) - F

Locale: Midatlantic
Blah blah blah on 07/21/2006 15:42:29 MDT Print View

Stop! By arguing you're all only giving this guy the boner he came here looking for. This is one of the few forums I can count on if I want to avoid flame wars and internet diarrhea. Lets keep it constructive. And, everyone knows that Mystery Ranch makes good, home-sewn packs, so lets let this thread die!

R K
(oiboyroi)

Locale: South West US
Re: Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 16:16:26 MDT Print View

Richard,

How many miles do you typically cover in a day? Typically its 20-30 for me.

Going light has allowed me to do this much more comfortably than with a traditional load. I did 25 miles once with a pack that was ~80 lbs (don't know for sure, never weighed anything back then)and I was toast for the next few days afterwards. With lighter weight gear I can do those distances day after day.

Since I don't have lots of time off (I'm a college student) I need to be able to move quickly when I do, so I can get a good hike in. I much prefer hiking to camping. I get bored in camp quickly so hiking well into the night is normal. When I do get to camp I can fall asleep right way.

Anyways, my gear facititates MY goals and MY style of backpacking. This site and forum have helped my refine my system to function for me. I wouldn't force upon anyone to do the same. As the saying goes... Hike your own hike!

Roy

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Blah blah blah on 07/21/2006 16:17:22 MDT Print View

Wow... this one got ugly!!!

Richard... I have to say... early in the thread I really felt for you. You asked a simple question about a backpack and the thread got hijacked by a discussion of sweatshops. That's not cool. We should stay on topic and answer your question... not pick fights.

However... when you said that backpacking is all about pain... always was and always will be... I was like... what the...!? No it's not. Not at all. When I'm hiking with a 5 pound load on my back after eating the last of my food (before either resupply or the end of the trip)... backpacking is a sheer joy. You should try it... really. It's a whole different experience. Of course... you can't get a 5 pound base load if you're climbing Everest (or probably anything for that matter)... but 5 pounds is not all that hard to achieve for "regular" backpacking. With a full load of food... that will go up to 12-20 pounds... depending on how long your trip or leg is (till the next resupply)... but that's still a joy compared to 60 pounds.

And what's this about "real" backpacking trips?! I don't blame you for getting angry when your post was basically ignored and people went off about sweatshops... and there are few things more annoying than self-righteousness... but dude... that's just plain insulting.

As for the Excel sheets... yes... it DOES seem really anal... heck... it IS really anal... but the thing is... when you stop counting those grams and ounces and just start throwing stuff in a pack... that's how you end up with a 60 pound pack. The spreadsheets force you to really evaluate what you're taking... question everything... and also really help to show you where your weight it... where you could cut down... where you're doing well... etc.

As for sweatshops... you know... really... almost everything we buy is made overseas. I try to avoid the obvious things... like WalMart... but really... unless you want to work full-time researching every single thing you eat, buy, invest in, use, own... etc... or just move to a commune... chances are that you support unfair labor practices to SOME degree or other. And I know that there are lots of good choices we can all make... and it's good to be aware... but I'm just sayin'... it's hard to avoid every single trace of it. It's pretty much built in to our current globalized, free-trade economy. So you know... we're all more or less living in glass houses on this issue. And glass houses aside... this is a backpacking forum anyway. Enough said... from me anyway :)

Edited by davidlewis on 07/21/2006 16:19:01 MDT.

R K
(oiboyroi)

Locale: South West US
Re: Re: Mystery Ranch Backpacks equals Dana Design quality? on 07/21/2006 16:18:13 MDT Print View

Ben,

Maybe I'll see ya up on Mt. Whitney, I'm due to be there ~ Aug 15th-17th.

Roy

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Re: Re: Ignorant abut Backpacking on 07/21/2006 16:25:01 MDT Print View

Roy said "Anyways, my gear facititates MY goals and MY style of backpacking. This site and forum have helped my refine my system to function for me"

You said it Roy! I remember my first trip... 40+ pounds... and LOTS of pain!!! Then I heard about lightweight options (before discovering this site) and got down to a miraculous 30 pounds!!! Woo Hoo! Then 27!!! I thought I was doing really well. Then I discovered this site and I was like WHAT?!?! You guys are going out there with 5 pound base weights?! Holy! Now I routinely carry a base weight of 6 pounds and I'm very safe and comfortable. I absolutely could NOT have done that without this site. No way. I've learned almost everything I know about true ultralight backpacking from this site.

Edited by davidlewis on 07/21/2006 16:26:11 MDT.