I know it is supposed to kill mosquitos and maybe keep them away as well.

My big question, is if I spray a little bit on the center of my Trailstar (where all the bugs congregate because its the highest and warmest point) will it keep bugs away from there? Will that make any darn difference?

I figure if I treat my bug net, that will help.

Can I put Permethrin on Silnylon and Dyneema ripstop?

"Can I put Permethrin on Silnylon and Dyneema ripstop?"

Yes. It's what I do. Spray the thing on my clothing, socks and shoes. I spray on my backpack and tent too. I dislike skeeters buzzing continuously -- even if they are outside the noseeum netting. Permethrin takes care of that -- which makes it easier to get in and out of my tent without letting those pesky things in.

Edited by ben2world on 07/22/2010 19:42:26 MDT.

Good to know it won't melt my stuff like DEET can. So it actually does a good job of repelling them as well?

The stuff is great. Really. Especially for ticks, I've found less so for other critters -especially mosquitos. My dad was just diagnosed with Lyme (Pennsylvania), so I'm not fooling around with ticks. Those Wisconsin skitters won't quit until they've drained all the blood or the deet is on thick.

What I still don't know is how carcinogenic it is. Sawyer swears it's perfectly fine, but I haven't found any real studies from PubMed or otherwise.

So it could be "ya know that grilled meat covered in diet coke sitting on top of that cell phone is gonna kill you" carcinogenic or it could be seriously carcinogenic, I'd love to know the answer.

Edited by ChrisMorgan on 07/22/2010 20:44:04 MDT.

Lots of studies. Permethrin is safe for most animals, but don't spray it anywhere near cats.

Dogs are OK. You can even spray it on their fur. Dogs can be very susceptible to Lyme Disease. So treat their fur before hiking with them.

It can be harmful to fish and amphibians as well, if I remember correctly. So be careful where you dispose of it.

Wash your clothes after treatment and the permethrin will still work for several washings. I belive that cats don't have issue with clothes after they have been treated and washed once.

A little off subject,
Lyme disease is very common in the North East and becoming more common in other areas, far more common than people want to believe.
I have experienced advanced Lyme and I never want to go through that again.
I know at least ten people who contacted it, but realized it early on and treatment took care of it.
I have a friend who has partial paralysis. We don't know yet if it is going to be permenant.

One friend was hospitalized with brain/nerve problems caused by it and probably won't fully recover.

Permethrin is the best way to avoid Lyme Disease.

Some good information here and to emphasize yes, it's extremely toxic to aquatic life. The way we outdoorsy types use it--applied to clothing--it's bound to the fabric and isn't going anywhere. This is why the treatments are "good for 70 washings."

If applying it yourself, use a spray box or other form of containment for permethrin aerosols. If dunking the clothing in liquid, trap any splashes and drips and dispose of contaminated materials in the trash. Do not rinse it down the drain. Sewage discharge studies show that some municipalities have fairly high efluent permethryn concentrations while others nearby have none. The difference is believed to be in what type of settling they use; evidently, permethryn bonds to dirt particles, which provide a mechanism for it to survive treatment and be discharged into the receiving water.

/nerd stuff

I happened to use treated pants and shirt for the first time last weekend and it was great to watch the many score mosquitoes wander around looking for a drill site, then fly away unfed. I was disappointed they didn't keel over and die but that's just my immaturity displaying itself.

Back home my wrists, ankles and neck were pretty chewed up but the rest of me was fairly bite-free. Conclusion: the stuff really works.

Cheers,

Rick

Re: "I was disappointed they didn't keel over and die but that's just my immaturity displaying itself. "

Yes, it takes a long time to work, but eventually they die when exposed to it.

I have heard stories of ticks getting exposed to treated clothing and living for several minutes before dying.

But, they don't live long enough to spread Lyme disease.

I’m a convert to Permethrin; I no longer wear tightly woven nylon shirts in summer having switched to either micro merino wool or super light Under Armor. Permethrin sprayed on my clothes and pack keeps the mosies off, clear skies when taking a short break or having a meal.

As an added benefit I now type with twelve fingers, so much faster!

Permethrin-sprayed clothing works great for mosquitoes and ticks. However, it didn't do anything for Wind River Range horseflies (which look big enough to carry off a horse) and deerflies, which considered my permethrin-sprayed shirt as an appetizer! It was after this experience that I bought a lightweight windshirt to put on at rest stops during fly time. The windshirt has turned out to be the most versatile layer I own, but that's another topic.

I would not put permethrin or any other spray any place on a dog where said dog could lick. Instead, use Bayer's K9Advantix, which distributes through the skin. Check with your veterinarian first!

Also, permethrin is an insecticide, not a repellent, although it seems to have repellent qualities.

Edited by hikinggranny on 07/24/2010 15:37:25 MDT.

Permethrin is very toxic to cats. I'm very careful to not let any of my treated clothes get anywhere near them. . I'm amazed at how well it works. Mosquitoes love me but they will not bite through a treated shirt or hat and head net, even this rare hatch we had in Oregon of the ones that will bite you multiple times.

Edited by Meander on 07/24/2010 16:34:26 MDT.

An old but informative technical report was generated when the US Army decided it wanted to use Permethrin for Army BDU (Battle Dress Uniforms). There were a slew of authors, military and civilian, resulting in a 154 page report.

Permethrin army uniforms 1995.pdf

Health Effects of Permethrin-Impregnated Army
Battle-Dress Uniforms

Subcommittee to Review Permethrin Toxicity from
Military Uniforms, Committee on Toxicology,
Board on Environmental Studies and Toxicology,
National Research Council

ISBN: 0-309-57300-9, 154 pages, 6 x 9, (1994)
This free PDF was downloaded from:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/9274.html

Well, I applied some of this stuff to my clothes and bug net this weekend.

I also applied some to the center peak in my Trailstar, which within an hour, killed 4-5 dozen small flies. As noted already, it may not be a strong repellent, but makes sure of one of two things: bugs don't stay around too long to bother me, or they'll die in the process.

I'll be testing my treated clothes in Glacier at the end of next week.

Does anyone know if one permethrin treatment actually lasts six weeks as advertised? Moreover, what does this mean for factory-treated garb (i.e. OR Bugout gaiters)? I'm pretty sure all that Insect Shield stuff is permethrin-based.

From what I've read, it can last six months, even after several washings.
Hot water will shorten the time span, so warm or cold wash only.

Bugproof gear is almost always treated with Permethrin.

Can you recommend a brand that's worked for you? I know Sawyer makes a spray, but is there a dip/soak version?

Thanx

I buy the concentrated type that ranchers use. Don't remember where I get it, do a google search. Good sources are veterinary supplies.

Sawyer is only something like 0.5% permethrin.
The good stuff is something like 20% permethrin.
I mix one cup with two gallons of water.
Soak the clothes thoroughly, wring and fully hang dry, then wash warm and dry once before use.

I do this once or twice a year.

Again,do not get it anywhere near cats until the clothes are finished being treated.

Edited by brooklynkayak on 07/27/2010 18:51:14 MDT.

Thanks for that information, Steven. That seems like a much longer lasting treatment than the spray.

Can you give me a brand name?

Thanx

At REI, it's Sawyer.

I just finished an 11-day hike with a fair number of mosquitoes, used the spray, and it didn't seem to do much for me. I wore long pants and long sleeves that I'd sprayed with permethrin, but in the evenings the bugs would be biting me right through them. Maybe the more concentrated stuff works better, I dunno. The spray sure isn't cheap, and the environmental effects sound pretty bad as well. In the evening, I just added a second layer of clothing, and that seemed to do the job that the permethrin wasn't doing.

Permithren is not so good for flying bugs. It does kill them, but not until after they bite and fly away.

Where Permithrin shines is with ticks. Ticks are far more dangerous than people think, far more dangerous than biting flies or mosquitoes.

Correction, I use 10%:
http://www.amazon.com/Permethrin-10-32oz/dp/B00061MSS0

I am a big permethrin fan. My first use was after a hike that I aborted (and had a heck of a hike back out) because of major ticks. I stopped counting at 52 on me with one bite. When I got to camp I could not stand not knowing if they were in my hair and such. (Ticks are very stealthy crawlers.) That night as I drove past an REI I bought this.

http://tinyurl.com/lrbbl

I went back to the same spot the next day and brushed against every bush to see if it would work. It did.

Now OR is making a shirt with double the life span. I would like to give it a try sometime. Check this out:

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/m_s_sentinel_l_s_shirt.html

So I decided to give it a try on my own and got the Sawyer spray:

http://tinyurl.com/23nqvdg

Then I got serious and started using the real stuff. As what I use it not "made" for this use I was told that I should not post my experiments. (And I thank the nameless poster at a gear forum long ago, in a galaxy far far away that started me onto this.) But feel free to email me for the little canned response I made up. Actually I may be updating it as I have decided to do a tent experiment in Yosemite next week where I will be for 6 nights and I am told the bugs are bad.

ray AT backpackinglight DOT comish

After next Monday I will be gone for most of August with spotty net access. So don't get upset if I don't answer. I am not dissing you. Just hiking or camping with my kids.

Ray

Love the stuff. Treat the bug net on my hammock. Clouds of buzzing mosquitoes sound like air raid sirens but after a while they go quiet, having expired. Heh, heh, heh....

Steven,

Mixing 1 cup to 2 gallons of water makes the solution even weaker than the Sawyer stuff (0.3125% vs. 0.5%). 1 cup to 1 gallon would be 0.625%. Do you think this would be OK? I just ordered the stuff. Thanks for the info.

Ray, I noticed in your review that you don't mention Buzz Off pants.

Ex Officio makes a Buzz Off pair of convertible pants I've been using for the last year. They are just as effective as the shirt, and stop the nasty little ticks before they get too high! I usually hike in them as shorts, then put the legs on as it gets cool at night.

Alas, here at the base of Mt. Chocorua is a highly tick infested area in what has become the Lyme disease capitol of the US.

So I have been using permethrin on my clothing for years, and it is very effective, especially around the socks and pant legs. However, bushwacking exposes the upper body to places where ticks lie in wait, so no more bushwacking. What were bushwacking routes are now winter snowshoe routes only.

Do not use the stuff on my dogs for heaven's sake, who have been innoculated for lyme disease. If only the vaccine for humans had been perfected rather than pulled off the market.

I've found for many years that the Permethrin must be resprayed every hike to be effective. If not, ticks come home with us every time.

During a warm wet spell, we had a profusion of deer tick nymphs last OCTOBER! About half the ticks tested in NH turn up lyme positive. So, they are an increasingly serious problem. There is no point in moving, because every year the deer ticks move further north.

So we stick to the hardened trails in the three warmer seasons. And do more BP in northern Maine, now. The northern section of the Cohos trail is still OK, but don't know how long that will be the case. Quite a change from just a few years ago.

One concern is that I noticed that this year, Walmart and many local chains pulled the Permethrin from their shelves without explanation, and it is becoming more difficult to purchase. It would be useful to know more about toxicity of this stuff.

Sam F.

Yep, I used some treated clothing in Glacier. I'm not sure I got one bite, mosquitos or ticks, through the treated clothing during the entire week. We were sitting in camp with some other people and clouds of mosquitos swarmed all around. Those buggers barely came near us!

Based on a recent experience in Alaska, I think it does a good job with clothing and crawling insects. Unfortunately, it did not help me much where flying insects were able to get to bare skin. I would use it again.

--B.G.--

You're right, Bob. Any exposed skin was on the menu.

so if 10% is good is 36.8% better

http://www.amazon.com/36-8-Permethrin-Multi-Insecticide-Termiticide/dp/B003IMO3I2/ref=pd_sim_k_4

From what I understand 0.5% solution in water is plenty. Anything over that is a waste.

Better reapply this amount every few months.

Hadn't thought about soaking my tents, but I'm going to do it now.

Because of the bugs in Ohio, I tend to wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts and a hat that covers my balding pate. I soak everything including the hat and excepting my underwear in Permethrin. Two stories:

Recently, I walked the Lake Vesuvius Backpack Trail. It was so tick-ridden that they were all over my hands, the only exposed part of my body. The Deet on my hands did no good whatsoever, so I had to keep picking them off.

At the campsite, I had scores on deer ticks attached to my socks (my pants were tucked into the socks). Every danged deer tick was deader than h#ll, you betcha.

At Caesar Creek State Park, I was engulfed in skeeters amidst the wet, tall grass as I stopped for a water break and leaned my arm on my trekking pole. I saw one of them land on the cuff of my long sleeve, and as it prepared to try to draw blood, I watched with fascination as it it went into convulsions and died.

Permethrin is available at most big-box stores for a lot cheaper than the spray stuff from outfitters.

Don't handle Permethrin when it's wet (use gloves), and for heaven's sake, keep the stuff away from cats, wet or dry. But god bless the stuff!

Stargazer

Edited by nerdboy52 on 08/18/2010 10:09:27 MDT.

I forgot to use permethrin on a little field trip to South Dakota last weekend. While I didn't get any ticks, I got something I think is worse in the short term. I quit counting chiggar bites after I reached 400. It's been a very unpleasant few days.

Lyme is pretty scary. I know a lady here in Texas who had undiagnosed Lyme, and she blames it for a heart attack and several joint problems.

Just wanted to back up Steven's warning about cats. Several years ago I noticed a trail of ants in my living room at home. I searched around for a can of regular bug spray like Black Flag or Raid, but couldn't find any. I did find a can of Permethrin spray that I used for my backpacking clothing and used that instead. It did kill the ants, but it almost killed my marriage also, because my wife's cat got very sick, and in fact almost died. The vet bill was quite impressive. I would never use that stuff inside a house again.

I soaked all my hiking clothing and hat in a 2.5% solution and it worked well in the Wind River Range recently. Mine was originally 10% carpenter ant killer from a big box.

It seems that most outdoors people in my area have had it at one time. The cases that didn't get caught in time have lead to advanced stages, facial paralysis, joint problems, long periods of flue like symptoms and even worse.
The actor, musician, artist John Lurie, an avid outdoors person, has been suffering with advanced Lyme for years.

Deer ticks have proven to be very dangerous and should be feared above rattle snakes, lightning, poisonous spiders, etc...

An update: Spoke to an aquaintance who co-owns a BP equip. store here, and he advised there has been no recall on permethrin. Bought two 6 oz. cans of Repel Permanone, .5% Permethrin. Quite expensive, $8.95 @ can, about $3 more than another brand Walmart was selling, but this store generally undersells the chains, like EMS, by around 20%, so not a problem.

While I am OK with spraying this stuff on the outside of my sox and pant legs for a day hike, being careful to avoid spraying skin; without more information about toxicity, I would not spray it on the side of fabric that would be in contact with my skin, or where I would be likely to inhale it.

Lyme disease has proven to be far more toxic to humans and dogs than Permethrin.

Cats are another thing and although it is harmless to them after the permethrin has set and the clothing washed once. Do not let them come in contact with the liquid or even clothing treated without at least one wash.

I take no chances and keep my hiking clothes in a drawer that they can't get to.