Folks-

I am considering offering a ULA Panel Loading Pack. Obviously I've yet to build one for a few reasons. The actual ability to manufacture another pack in a reasonable timeframe (in addition to the existing ULA line-up) is a huge consideration for me, but perhaps more importantly is my inability to really grasp or "get" the idea behind a panel loading pack.

In a few months I am going to be out hiking for 60 days and a panel loader might make the cut for this trip...assuming I can become enamored with the idea and theory behind it.

Admittedly the appeal of easier main packbag access is a non-consideration in regard to how I load my own pack and how I hike. Current ULA packs all have enough accessible external storage that I am only accessing the main packbag 2 times a day --- in the morning, and then in the evening. Mid-day access is very, very rare. Without any elitist intention, it seems panel loaders encourage sloppy packing and are a great excuse to not 'think' about how to organize your pack.

My other hang-up is I just can't get over the idea of introducing a point of 'potential' failure (zipper) into a pack. (yeah I know...everything can 'potentially' fail...). I've thought of other solutions and seen other companies design and produce panel loading packs without zips, but I have certainly not come away with, in either case, a good feeling about the design solution.

It seems a few panel loaders get consistently good reviews from the online community, but product turnover in the traditional outdoor industry is slowing killing 'em off it seems...

I've kept up with discussion on the idea, but would love to hear what you all think. So...if you've got a hankering to make your thoughts known about the ideal panel loader and its theory of use, I am all ears.

Brian:

I have two backpacks: a panel-loading Mountainsmith Ghost and a top-loading GoLite Dawn. While I much prefer panel loading, I can easily live with either. Just about the ONLY type of pack I dislike and despise is a top loader with floating top! Using it means hauling a pack that extends far above your head. But even if it's "just there in case you need it" -- well, it's ALWAYS there to get in the way of packing and unpacking, plus even more straps to monkey with then there are already.

To me, a panel loader is much easier and quicker to pack and unpack. However, as you alluded to above, this advantage isn't all that earth shattering because with proper packing plus outside pockets/bungee cords/hipbelt pockets, etc. -- one can store frequently-needed things either outside or near the top.

The final point I like to make is the equation of zippers with "points of failure". Yes, zippers can (and do) fail, but so do shoulder straps and seams. Thinking about it, if zippers fail often enough, they would have been eliminated from the market a long time ago. But that's just not the case! Think of the literally millions of luggage subject to rude baggage handlers every single day at airports and bus terminals the world over! Overwhelmingly, zippers are used. Straps are sometimes used as supplements but less so as the main mechanism for closure.

I have been a traveler, and only more recently a hiker. It's interesting -- and sometimes comical -- to read strong (knee jerk) reactions from travelers about how absolutely horrendous top loaders are... and here reading hikers' moaning about zippers blowing, as if they were talking about daily or weekly occurances!

To swear off zippers either because of one actual occurance or more likely just because we keep hearing about it is akin to swearing off down bags entirely because we keep hearing that down is useless when soaked! Sure, either can happen, but both can easily be managed with just a little bit of care.

Edited by ben2world on 06/29/2006 09:41:32 MDT.

Brian:

If you are indeed interested in panel loaders, I highly recommend that you give the MS Ghost an actual try out (on sale at Sierra Trading Post) and see what you can incorporate into your potential panel-loader design. Even if the Ghost isn't the absolute most comfortable pack in the world, I find it the easiest to use in terms of packing and unpacking! For example, the pack opens up only 2/3rds of the way down. This makes it very easy to shove sleeping bag and clothing down the bottom third of the pack (like you would a top loader) -- and then pack the rest of the gear like the panel loader that it is.

A friend of mine is a long-term ULA enthusiast who loves his P-2 to death. He bought a MS Ghost right after he played with mine. Now, he swears undying love to both packs!

Edited by ben2world on 06/29/2006 10:01:33 MDT.

Ben-

I was waiting for your Ghost endorsement:)!

Yeah...they definately do a few things that I think are really good. I was quite surprised to see them discontinue that pack. The Ghost seems to have a loyal following...and apparently for good reason.

Maybe it is 'cause they coming out with something better...?

Anyway, thank you for your comments. I've seen a Ghost up close and personal and agree with your observations.

Brian:

People are going to think that I am pimping for Mountainsmith -- if they aren't already.

I lament the passing of MS' entire 'Mountainlight' line of packs. I talked to one of their reps last year after hearing about their impending discontinuation, and the rep "swore" up and down that the rumor wasn't true. He even said that the Ghost was their best selling pack and they had no intention of discontinuing it.

Come 2006, of course, they did in fact discontinued the entire line. This makes me think that perhaps there was some kind of separation / reorganization within the company??? Maybe the guy who designed that line left and took the intellectual rights with him? MS's current packs are completely different now!

Ben-

Agreed. Seems a strange move indeed to discotniue a successful line and model. Oh well...I am sure the folks in the marketing dept have it figured out :)

As for zippers. Agreed that the actual frequency of failure is rare, it just seems to me that when they do fail, it is bascially a catastraphic failure (I understand the same can be said for a shoulder strap).

Lastly, it could just be my aversion to fixing blown zippers that leads to my bias. While I have never seen a #10 YKK blow out, I've seen plenty of #5 and #8's. That is NO fun to fix!

I'm all thumbs when it comes to DIY gear so I am also pretty ignorant when it comes to zippers and parts classifications.

Brian -- what size/number is the Ghost zipper? I think it is a good balance between light weight and strength.

I am also guessing that while a strong enough length of zipper is going to weigh a bit, perhaps the incremental weight is either minimal or even neutral if one also considers the number of straps that can be eliminated? But this is probably more applicable when comparing to a Gregory with its jungle of straps than to an ULA where straps are already pretty minimal...

Brian,
I made a full size mock-up of a one shoulder strap SUL pack. It will open like a "panel loader" but I am trying to work out a way to close it without using a zipper.

Have you thought about a one shoulder strap pack?

Hi Brian,

Variety is the spice of life and since I’m a gearnut, I’m obliged to encourage you to develop a panel-loader. That said, I appreciate that being a small maker-vendor, you can easily spread yourself too thin and that this isn’t a casual decision.

I don’t know what percentage of your client base at least occasionally have to carry a food canister, but that likely comes into consideration when sizing the thing. A Ghost, since it’s a point of comparison here, will accommodate one but at the cost of a large chunk of the main compartment volume. And since the Ghost basically has only the one compartment, this presents some problems.

I think the capacity to strap gear—food, clothing, reservoir—on top is important. Strap reinforcement of the panel zipper is important (i.e., buckle straps that span the flap and main body). Even with a “waterproof” panel zip I’d consider a stormflap over it as weather and debris protection. The best panel-loader I’ve owned was a custom-built Schoenhofen (sp?), and it was laid out basically as I’m describing here (it also had a separate lower compartment). The stormflap even had a drawstring to snug it down, and the system worked brilliantly. The zip was a monster (in typical ‘80s fashion) that was probably stronger than the fabric it was sewn to. I’ve had panel-loading external frames and they weren’t nearly as nice—they leaked, had zipper and stitching failures, etc.

Backpanel storage in the form of a pocket would be preferable to the Ghost’s bungee.

Final thoughts: Arc’Teryx sometimes adds a vertical side zip to their top-loading packs, which is quite handy. The old Gregory Reality has main-compartment access through the back of the back pocket. While not a substitute for all-out panel loading, these tricks accomplish the goal of reaching/replacing gear without unloading the whole darn pack. Also, panel loaders can be a pain in wet/snowy conditions because in laying them flat to access the stuff, the straps and back get wet/dirty. The Ghost's three-quarters panel offers a workaround for this problem, as everything doesn't automatically dump out when it's opened upright.

I really like Rick's point about top straps. Since there is no opening at the top, that space is readily available for strapping all kinds of bulky (but not too heavy) gear -- without any inteference to the rest of the pack.

I sewed two short lengths of webbing to the top of my Ghost pack so I can strap "stuff" on top when desired. Sometimes, I attach my lumbar pack on top -- where it's used for day trips along the trail and also serves as "top pocket" -- similar function as top loaders where the top converts into a lumbar pack.

Perhaps Brian can design the top where users can strap whatever gear -- or an optional top pocket/lumbar pack with a more integrated look...

Edited by ben2world on 06/29/2006 11:43:15 MDT.

Ben and Brian:
I am going to throw my 3 cents into this discussion. I, too, own a Ghost and I also own a top loader. In this case a 2002 Osprey Aether 60. When I go backpacking almost without exception I reach for the Ghost. And yes I am pimping for this pack because I really do not understand MS's decision to discontinue this pack. It is, IMHO, the best pack I have ever used. I usually cary no more that 17 to 22 pounds in it and it carries like a dream. If anything, the zippers are hard to slide and not the weak point that they have been reviewed as being. They are strong well sewn and never leak. I just bought a 2nd one for my daughter from STP. The harness is exceptional comfortable and rides well on shoulders and hips. The Load Lifters actually work unlike most LLs on most packs and in combination with the hoop suspension make this pack exceptionally comfortable. And like you, Ben, I enjoy the fact that this pack rides low. I hate getting grabbed and thrown back because the top of my bag has caught a branch that I have ducked. I am saddened that we don't have more panel loaders on the market to chose from especially in the lightweight class. Brian, if you are serious then I am sure given the quality of your packs, that you would make one that captured all of best features of the Ghost and then some. There will always be lazy or inefficient backpackers who fail to properly load a pack whether it is a top or panel loader. I do not think that those of us who are lightweight packers fall into this category. Further, I do not think that the run of the mill backpacker buys your packs. If you offered a panel loader, it would have appeal to those of us who enjoy the convenience of a panel loader and the ability to organize one's pack visually.

Features I would like to see:
1. Compression straps that compress the full pack not just the sides
2. top mounted gear straps.
3. front mesh stuff panel.
4. Hip belt mounted pockets that are removable
5. Drawcord closures for bellows side mesh pockets.
6. Side bellows mesh pockets that are accessible while the pack is worn. Perhaps two openings to the pockets -- one top mounted and a second front facing.

All for 32 oz or less.

Just read your last comment Ben. Gave me an idea to have my seamtress spouse sew elastic webbing straps on the top of my ghost to hold small or light stuff that I might want to retrieve quickly -- such as a rain jacket or wind shirt (or lunch/snack). These could also hold down a fanny day pack. Those straps are a great idea, Ben.

Edited by mitchellkeil on 06/29/2006 11:48:36 MDT.

I love my Nimbus Lattitude panel loader ... so much so, in fact, that I don't mind the weight penalty of half a pound for the convienence.

I have a G pack as well and would much prefer the panel system.

Just one more opinion

Here's why- I use that pack for long bike trips, and my position on the bike means that the pack exterior is getting snagged over and over again by low hanging branches. If I rode with a pack that had lots of external storage, those mesh pockets, not to mention the gear inside them, may not last too long under that treatment. While hardly ultralight, I like that the Ekko lets me zip open 90% of the front panel while still being a top loader. This way, the zippers are sheilded from water and debris, and if they failed, the pack would still be functional, since the panel that unzips has a buckle attachment at the top. My strategy is to load the pack as a top-loader, and then to pack all the gear I'll need during the day through the panel opening. Seems like the best of both worlds. What I would change about it, if I could- wider shoulder straps (aking to those on ULA packs already), a better hipbelt pocket (I can barely fit my car key in the one that's there), and a roll-top closure instead of a floating top pocket. And yeah, a couple ounces shy of 4 pounds for a 2100 cu.in. pack is pretty tank-like by UL standards, but I'm sure Dyneema Gridstop would shave considerable weight over the high-denier nylon that Gregory uses.

With a simple is better philosophy, a panel loader loses hands down. I like a panel loader for travel, but for bare bones UL hiking, the top loader is simpler, lighter, and allows multiple use of my sleeping pad. I do like to have a top pocket and side pockets for access to commonly used items like rain gear, maps, compass/GPS and snacks I use a Golite Speed now). Any clothes I might want to add or subtract are in an outside pocket or at the top of the main pack bag. So why would I want a panel loader on the trail?

As to zipper failures, the last thing I want to to have is the main closure on my pack exploding gear down the switchbacks! Any panel loaders I used had (and needed) compression straps---usually four-- and thats a lot of hardware, expense and complexity. In fact the compression straps and zipper probably exceed all the other pack hardware combined, let alone assembly time and increased opportunity for warranty issues. Drawstrings are easy to make and repair in the field.

When I travel, panel loaders are great, as I can toss it on the bed or luggage stand in the hotel, unzip the panel and take clothing out. It also allows packing my clothing with minimal wrinkling. I travel light, but still go for heavier check-in luggage due to Baggage Gorillas. The idea of a silnylon pack on a baggage line makes me shudder. An Eagle Creek Cordura panel loader/convertible pack is perfect for me there.

Considering the same on the trail, a panel loader would only be of advantage in camp, but I end up taking out everything in the main bag anyway-- the sleeping pad comes out, and my sleeping bag is on the bottom, with bags of clothing, food, and kitchen stuff on top, all of which I need to get into. After dinner, the kitchen and food bags get hung in a tree and my pack and clothing go under my feet if it is cold. I guess a panel loader would make a stable pillow.

Edited by dwambaugh on 06/29/2006 12:13:06 MDT.

What could be simpler than a panel loader. Look at a picture of any top loader and the Ghost. All of the exterior pockets and straps to cinch down the top loader are more complicated than the simple single compartment of the Ghost. There are only two compression straps to shrink the load. No, Panel loaders are the victims of unwarranted prejudice and work as well or better when compared to top loaders. I own both and always reach for my Ghost when I am going out.

Brian,
Another pack you might want to look at for "inspiration" is the larger Wookey panel-loaders. I used to have a Juggernaut that had a great suspension system that made 30 lbs feel like 20.Wookey stuff is bomber built (i.e. heavy for their size) but their designs are solid in my opinion. And zipper failure is overstated if the pack is engineered correctly,IMHO.It'll be interesting to see what you come up with.

One of the key's for me to pack my pack right is cramming stuff in pretty tight. That gives structure to the pack to back up whatever semi-frame it has. That kind of tight packing has been much easier with my toploading Madden, and my new ULA Circuit, then with my panel loading Madden.

Dale, for the most part I agree with your main points - weight, complexity, failure points, etc. However, I should point out that the only thing keeping you from using your pad as a frame in a panel-opening design is the small supply of hi-tech panel loaders on the market. Case in point - the new SMD Essence, an unorthodox panel-loader for sure, which uses the pad as it's frame.

I agree with some of the other posters here - unless an inappropriately lightweight zipper is used, I don't see why that would be considered *the* weak point. I doubt we'll see a 4 oz panel-loader anytime soon, but I don't see why lightweight materials and techniques wouldn't make a sub 10 oz pack possible. Maybe I'll tackle that project after I finish my down quilt and shelter... so much sewing...

Just a note - I realize that a sub-10 oz panel loader would be easy with cuben/superlight zippers, etc. I'd like to see what's possible with more durable and abrasion-resistant materials. I think that's where the "sweet spot" usually is with packs.

Ben

Thanks everyone for the comments. Needless to say I've heard a lot and will re-visit all these comments when the time comes. I will definately sew up a prototype or two in hopes of using it for my upcoming trip and will try to post some photos should I come up with anything worthy of all the comments.

Many, many, many things to consider. Thanks!

By no means does this close the discussion, just wanted to thank you all for your thoughts. It is always interesting to see, when given the chance, how someone might create an "ideal".

Oh Bill...I have messed with single strap UL Packs. Most have found their way into my cache of around-town-errand bags! They work fine (shoulder reversible) but I find the loads need to be, well...ultralight to have much comfort. Stability in semi-technical terrain is a little questionable.

On the other hand, I was up in the High Uintas for a long day hike with one, and the looks you get 15 miles in the backcountry prancing along with a single strap pack is worth the occasional bout of instability!

Brian:

To no one's surprise, all the comments simply confirm -- yet again -- that many people like panel loaders, and many people prefer top loaders. I doubt one will ever replace the other (nor should it).

I hope you will pursue this to the end, and I am sure many of us will be thrilled to see yet another clever design coming out of you and broadening your existing product line. I kind of see that in similar spirit as Henry Shires and his tarptents. Henry makes excellent tarptents as you make excellent packs. Still, we are all pleasantly surprised how Henry broke his own mold of longish tents and came up with a totally different 'Rainbow'.

It will be exciting to see what you might be 'hatching' in the near future. :)