"Could you use your hose/bladder in place of the irrigation syringe?"

You need high pressure and good water velocity, think waterpik.

Edited by erdferkel on 08/13/2010 14:00:49 MDT.

I've had good luck irrigating with my camelback. Just sit on it and you get pretty high pressures. If it was a big old nasty wound I would take the bite valve off so I could get into and wash all the nooks and cranny's out of the cut. Punching a small hole in the cap of a plastic water bottle with a knife and squeezing works good too.
A syringe would work better though.

The key to wound care is lots of irrigation. When you think it is clean enough you are halfway done.
I work in an ER so I wash out cuts for a living.
I personally carry sutures, but I know how to use them.

Edited by rucksmtr on 08/21/2010 17:29:26 MDT.

Really simple

Anti Allergy Pill 1x how ever many days I'm going out for
Tylenol PM x2
Ibprofen 800 x2
Leukotape 2 3inch pieces
1 small butterfly bandage
1 bandaid small
Purell bottle 1oz
Rescue Inhaler

Simple and to the point.

My wife is a nurse, so I have access to ER docs to aks this question (feel free to correct any or all of this Morgan as you likely know more). They all say not to worry about rescue inhalers. Reasoning is that there is no evidence that MMR (mouth to mouth resucitation) is effective/necessary in adults (in a first aid situation). In an adult, circulation failure (heart stopping) causes respiratory failure (unless we're talking about a blockage of the airway, which rescue inhalers will only exacerbate the issue). In children it's reversed (respiratory failure causes heart failure). If you haven't been trained to provide MMR to a child you could actually rupture their lungs. The point is, focus on keeping the heart going. Second reason not to bring it, if you hike alone, who is going to use it on you anyway (or who are you going to use it on)? Please remember I'm passing on what I understood from people I consider more knowledgable than me, and I am NOT offering medical/first aid advice in any way, use at your own risk, mileage may vary.

After reading several reviews I would say leave purell at home and use a Benzelconum (sp?) chloride based hand sanitizer. My personal experience is that your hands will thank you for not using alchohol on them. If you're argument is "it serves another purpose as a fire starter," use alchohol wipes rolled up. Alchohol + cotton = burns REAL good.

As funny as everyone is going to think I'm trying to be, what about 6 ounces of scotch (in my trusty titanium flask)? It can be used as an anisthetic (my spelling is atrocious), and an antiseptic. Plus if you don't need it by trails end... Anyway, I guess I'm actually asking. What about old fashioned, high grade, spirits?

Edited by wn7ant on 09/26/2010 09:48:53 MDT.

Maybe we should get in touch with some of the water filter/purifier makers. Ask them to set up a back flush on a hiking model that can draw from a drinking tube, and when pumped provide said pressure (making your purifier a multi use device). I'm still working out a single direction filter bypass so you don't pour the contaminants in the filter into an open wound...

On sutures... is it actually possible to suture ones self? I mean is the pain level tolerable to stick needle and thread through your own skin? I've never had to suture myself, though I've had it done to me with local anisthetic. Is kevlar sewing thread an acceptable material (until you get back to civilization)? I would assume it's better than bleeding to death...

Edited by wn7ant on 09/26/2010 10:01:29 MDT.

I would use steristrips or butterfly instead of suturing. Steristrips work great on machete wounds and other big cuts.

Everett, I believe rescue inhalers are for asthma related emergencies. A breathing barrier is used during CPR. I can definitely see why someone would want to bring along a rescue inhaler if they have any history of asthma. You are right though in your explanation of MMR and circulation being the critical part.

+1 on the scotch!

Thank you for setting me straight about the rescue inhaler(this is why I make it clear I have NO idea what I'm talking about). However, on the scotch, I'm QUITE sure I know what I'm talking about ;)

I now return this thread to its regularly scheduled subject.

Edited by wn7ant on 09/26/2010 13:43:14 MDT.

my fak has been steadily shrinking- my typical 3-4 day kit

a small irrigator (12cc), there seems to be a pretty good consensus on it's importance in dealing w/ cleaning wounds (8 grams)
one six pack of steri-strips (2 grams)
one neosporin packet (1.5 grams)
small roll gauze (5 grams)
3 immodium, 3 benadryl in tiny ziplock (3 grams)
8 advil, 4 tylenol in tiny ziplock (5 grams)
2' Leukotape wrapped around section of straw/benzoin (7 grams)
sak tweezers (1 gram)
small alokosak (5 grams)

about 1.5 oz

my repair kit contains several items that could also double over into first aid- duct tape, super glue, needle, safety pins

Consider aspirin. In low doses people use it to help prevent heart attacks (or deal with them at the onset). The reason this works is that aspirin acts as a blood thinner. Does anyone know if this behavior is indicative of all pain killers? Specifically, do all over the counter pain killers thin blood. Here's the concern:

Someone is hiking. They cut their leg open. The bleeding is stooped initially. Person takes a pain killer. Bleeding... ?

It is recognized that any response to this subject does not constitute medical advice.

"Really simple

Anti Allergy Pill 1x how ever many days I'm going out for
Tylenol PM x2
Ibprofen 800 x2
Leukotape 2 3inch pieces
1 small butterfly bandage
1 bandaid small
Purell bottle 1oz
Rescue Inhaler"

If you're carrying the rescue inhaler because you're asthmatic and if you go out on longer trips, one thing you might want to think of adding to this list would be enough prednisone to start a steriod taper. Several days' walk from an ER is a bad place to experience a severe asthma attack, but the proper dose of steroids can block the progression of a bad attack and buy you the time needed to walk out or be evacuated out by SAR. You have to know what you're doing with prednisone, though, and it's (rightly) a prescription-only drug, so it's something you'd need to discuss with your physician. I carried prednisone with me on my two-week long Grand Canyon commercial river rafting trip last year, and plan to carry it again next summer when I go off rafting the Salmon River. I never needed it, but was glad to have it just in case.

For people with serious allergies, an Epi-pen should also be added to the first aid-list.

"Consider aspirin. In low doses people use it to help prevent heart attacks (or deal with them at the onset). The reason this works is that aspirin acts as a blood thinner. Does anyone know if this behavior is indicative of all pain killers?"

No, no all over-the-counter painkillers have that effect. Tylenol has very minimal effects on blood clotting at normal doses. Ibuprofen does decrease platelet function, but to a far lesser extent than aspirin, and the effect wears off relatively quickly.

Edited by artemis on 03/18/2012 13:13:42 MDT.

"Does anyone know if this behavior is indicative of all pain killers? Specifically, do all over the counter pain killers thin blood."

I agree, not all pain killers do blood thinning, at least not the same way.

Aspirin is the most familiar OTC pain killer which does have the thinning effect. Tylenol does not. That is why hospitals normally administer Tylenol to a patient following minor surgery. They do not want some sudden blood thinning to happen, as might be the case from aspirin. Tylenol is a little safer in this regard.

My physician has me taking daily low-dosage aspirin as a general purpose blood thinner, and he specifically told me to avoid Ibuprofen. He said that one Ibuprofen will cancel the effect of one aspirin.

However, if you are a normal healthy adult who does not take pain killers regularly, and if you get a bad injury, it probably does not matter which one of these you take.

As they say, you just need something to take the edge off.

--B.G.--

Hi Bob

A word of caution for you and everyone wanting to play paramedic.

> if you are a normal healthy adult who does not take pain killers regularly, and if you
> get a bad injury, it probably does not matter which one of these you take.

Please be aware that for some people, ONE aspirin tablet can be LETHAL. Some people are allergic to any NSAID at all, and can suffer an asthma attack from taking just ONE tablet. That asthma attack can be fatal. It can cause massive inflammation of the airways and can stop breathing completely.

Take a look at the box for any NSAID. You will (should!) find a warning, often in the fine print, that it can trigger an asthma attack in some. The ambos treat this problem all the time.

Cheers

"Please be aware that for some people, ONE aspirin tablet can be LETHAL. Some people are allergic to any NSAID at all, and can suffer an asthma attack from taking just ONE tablet. That asthma attack can be fatal. It can cause massive inflammation of the airways and can stop breathing completely."

...and that is why I used the phrase "normal healthy adult."

If you are allergic or asthmatic, you don't fit the premise.

--B.G.--

> that is why I used the phrase "normal healthy adult."
The problem is that many people would regard themselves as normal and healthy - and still be allergic to aspirin without knowing it, because they just haven't taken any for the last 5 years. It happens.

Cheers

"The problem is that many people would regard themselves as normal and healthy - and still be allergic to aspirin without knowing it, because they just haven't taken any for the last 5 years. It happens."

Just because some people regard themselves as normal and healthy... that doesn't make them normal and healthy.

--B.G.--

Like Mary D, I just finished a 16 hour wilderness first aid class. What I learned is the same as what she says. To her list I would definitely add some tablets and medications, which might save the day, provide comfort, or save a life. One chewable aspirin can save a life, and the weight is negligible. Ibuprofin, acetominiphen, steristrips, immodium, pepto, kaopectate, benadryl, 3 in one antibacterial ointment, aloe burn gel (tiny pack), moleskin, breathing barrier, are on my list. Being diabetic I also take a round of antibiotics, and use them on most trips due to infected blisters or cuts.

If the meds are for someone other than you, you don't "administer" them. You make them available if the patient wants to give it a try. I don't know the statistics, but I'll bet you are far more likely to save a life than lose one by sharing an aspirin.

My MSR hyperflow water filter on backflush is good for irrigating wounds. Some 4 x 4 sterile pads don't weigh much, and the vet tape is reusable so its very weight effective. I have tweezers, and a pair of gloves are very lightweight for bodily substance barrier. Add moleskin, and athletic tape.

If you are just preparing to treat yourself, you probably only need moleskin and bandaids, but you never know, and it doesn't add much in weight to add a lot more capability.

Edited by rshaver on 05/01/2012 09:07:53 MDT.

Go to the Sierra Club's "Clubhouse" website and login.
(P.W. is "Explore" and U.N. is "Clubhouse" if I recall correctly)

Go to "Outings" and "Medical". Then to "Forms" and find "Recommended 1st Aid Kit List" (or similar heading. They change headings from time to time.

> Butterfly closures are often BETTER than sutures B/C they leave no distortion of the joined edges as sutures do and permit better drainage of fluids.

> I always carry small tubes of 500 mg. of Bayer granulated, lemon flavored asprin. It is THE fastest acting asprin I know of and I'd use it in a cardiac emergency with a conscious patient. However ONLY with their permission,as it is not part of my formal First Responder training. The pleasant-tasting granules are easily swallowed without water. Up to two 500 mg. tubes may be given at one time. This is for blood thinning purpodes to permit blood to bypass a blockage and to even help dissolve clots tha often accompany myocardial infarcs.

FYI> As a Sierra Club outings leader I often am the dafault "First Responder" on a hike even if I'm not leading because of my Outdoor Emergency Care training as a Ski Patroller. With recent minor changes in our manual it's the equivalent to EMT I (plus specialized winter first aid) according to an agreement recently reached with Homeland Security, who is attempting to standardize emergency responder training. OEC requires 60 hours of training.

Edited by Danepacker on 05/05/2012 19:19:37 MDT.

"2' Leukotape wrapped around section of straw/benzoin (7 grams)"

Mike,

Have you ever tried unrolling the Leukotape from that straw? If so, how do you manage it? I used to carry it wrapped around a ball point pen and had a devil of a time getting it unrolled, due to the small diameter, the first time I needed it. Since then I've taken to wrapping it around the bottle I carry my coconut oil in, but that has other issues. Any tips appreciated.