"really? I don't consider myself an expert."

Me neither, not by a long mile. But most of what I learned about UL hiking was acquired from UL hikers who'd done it before. It wasn't just "natural common sense" -- although they may seem so after some time (aka experience).

Methinks a lot of what we now take for granted is actually quite revolutionary if we were to introduce it to the vast majority of hikers out there. So radical in fact that many will only shake their heads -- and those who wish to try might only do so in "baby steps".

Edited by ben2world on 06/15/2010 15:45:50 MDT.

"and those who wish to try might only do so in "baby steps"."

Yup. I've been reading a lot here, and my base weight for Yosemite will be over 20 lbs. Much of the problem is cost (I'm just not in a position to replace expensive gear). The other is that this is my wife's second backpacking trip ever. She still wants luxuries that I would be willing to do without (lantern for example).

However, that base weight is done from 40 lbs. And I had actually worked to get it down to that prior to coming here!

What I found most interesting was how sub 12 pounds is classified as minimalist. The term minimalist conjures up the idea of being unprepared. Sub 12 doesn't need to be a Bear Grylls adventure.

Quoted: "Honestly what do you expect? They dont contract with TT/MLD/SMD...they aren't going to promote those products."


The REI near my house had Glen Van Peski of Gossamer Gear hold some conferences at the store. I think REI is great.

It is usually the term "lightweight" that gets confused, having now moved into a cliche-like territory. As far as the the REI community and the BPL.com community goes, I'd argue that we have much more in common, than no.

- I have seen many conversations over an aspect of gear that seems largely unimportant: color.

- Many people from both sides spend hundreds of dollars each year to outfit their "kit."

- When both groups buy new gear, their weight savings are similar, a few ounces.

And so forth. I think the most important aspect of lightweight backpacking has been getting me outside to use less gear, with a broader foundation of wilderness knowledge. Both REI and BPL have helped in that.

Really, the only thing that separates the two is in many cases, ten pounds of gear.

I agree with you Luke, you can do fairly well at REI. You will miss out on the best stuff, but you can do OK. The best stuff is sold by places that are too small or too fragile for REI. REI used to carry an O2 jacket just for cycling, but stopped (presumably because of their no hassle return policy). The small craft makers can't make enough stuff to sell to REI (or any other retailer) so the best stuff is via mail order.

My biggest criticism with the article is how they lay out their recommended steps. If I wrote the article, I would summarize like so:

1) Get a scale.
2) Take everything you ever bring on a trip and weigh it.
3) Put the items on a spreadsheet.
4) Ask yourself if you really need each item.
5) See if you can get a lighter version of the item.
6) Repeat steps 4 through 6.

Then you could go into particular examples (down sleeping bag, etc.).

Given the medium (rei.com) I think it is a fairly good article. Given the perspective of most here on BPL, yes it does miss the mark for most of us. But I have bought some light stuff from REI such as a SP GigaLite, 1 liter Platys, Calipene, Ti ware, etc.

Years ago when I first visited Ray Jardine's website, my first impression was a fringe lunatic. But now, I view him as the father of the UL revolution. Things pass with time. Interestingly, the Complete Walker IV (Colin Fletcher and chip Rawlins; published 8 years ago), has numerous references to Jardine. Back then, it appears that Rawlins did embrace some of the principles to some degree, although Fletcher seems to pooh-pooh a lot of it. The fact that CW IV attempts to review the state of the industry and BPing in general appears to be good research. And if I remember correctly, Rawlins classfied the UL movement as minimalist, as does the REI article.

The REI article is written to the majority of REI customers, and given the audience, it is pretty much spot on.

My major gripe with Fletcher's perspective is the same thing we're all exhibiting here. He alluded to the opinion that a pack weight lower than a certain percentage of body weight (I want to say it was 10%) is impossible to be safe or comfortable under any circumstances. That in order to have any fun at all, a minimum pack weight of 20% of body weight was necessary. He essentially writes off anyone outside those numbers as not knowing what they're doing, and dismisses them with the same air of arrogance we UL fanatics often direct at those with heavier packs.

In the end, everyone's mileage may vary. I've found that the heaviest things I've left behind are my preconceived notions. I had written off many types of gear, assuming they wouldn't work for me, based upon a hunch. Since I made a conscious effort to drop that way of thinking, pounds have melted off my baseweight, and are still disappearing.

Definitely some of that is laughable, but at least the do address skill set as something to count on (or realize if you can't count on it)

"Interestingly, the Complete Walker IV (Colin Fletcher and chip Rawlins; published 8 years ago), has numerous references to Jardine. Back then, it appears that Rawlins did embrace some of the principles to some degree, although Fletcher seems to pooh-pooh a lot of it. The fact that CW IV attempts to review the state of the industry and BPing in general appears to be good research. And if I remember correctly, Rawlins classfied the UL movement as minimalist, as does the REI article.

I've read that book like 4 times, and I totally agree with you.

And if I remember correctly, Rawlins classfied the UL movement as minimalist, as does the REI article.

If anything, I'm concerned that in some ways, advancements in UL materials are tricking us into forgetting our minimalist roots. We may be getting more "full featured" for the same weight, but I'm curious as to how much wt gain we're really making these day as a whole, as compared to yesteryear, sometimes.

I'd consider the minimalist moniker a compliment in our context.

While it is true that the article makes some good points it still seems half done. With a little more effort the only complaint would be their bias towards products they carry. As it stands it sounds like the author is unaware of lightweight backpacking strategies and the products carried by his own company.

The article was okay for those looking to lighten their load, but definitely falls short of representing the views represented by the lightweight backpacking community. I think that many heavily loaded backpackers could benefit from its recommendations. The advice and gear selections made would be easy for most backpackers, as they would require little change in techniques or mindset.

So it would be a shame for those backpackers to limit themselves to the views expressed in this REI article; remaining unaware of the experience of the lightweight backpackers here on BPL. It's easy to believe that <20 lbs is "expert class territory" that requires "fair weather is forecast and newer gear is employed" unless you actually listen to the experiences of non-experts hiking <20lb packs in crappy weather without the latest gear... while enjoying the experience more than they could carrying a heavier pack! The effort required to do so, however, might involve some changes in thinking (like re-evaluating pre-conceived notions about the comfort level of tarp camping).

I am glad that I started my backpacking adventures with a friend handing me Ray Jardine's Trail Life. I had few pre-conceived notions about backpacking other than my Army experiences (which were definitely not ultralight). I was able to start my gear acquisition from scratch!

For the sake of those reading REI's article that are interested in the views and experiences of lightweight backpackers, I have posted a link to this thread in the article's comments. The discussion in this thread has been great.

Edited by kencharpie on 06/16/2010 02:49:56 MDT.

For the "traditional" backpacker, it is a good start. For those seriously interested in lightening more, the can find this site on the Web. We all found it. An from here, research can expand to include the popular UL books.

I posted a comment on that article yesterday and it has yet to show up.

"Methinks a lot of what we now take for granted is actually quite revolutionary if we were to introduce it to the vast majority of hikers out there. So radical in fact that many will only shake their heads --"

Not just shake their heads. The animosity toward light and UL hikers on the 'net and out there in the real world is frankly amazing.

`

Edited by biointegra on 06/17/2010 01:53:41 MDT.

I thought the article was just fine, assuming that it was aimed at traditional hikers.

And I also would put <12lbs as minimalist. On some trips my water and food alone will weigh that much. Add in gear and I rarely leave the house below 20lbs. Doesn't mean I haven't got out my scales and splashed out on some fancy cottage equipment, not that I don't know what I'm doing and don't have adequate skills. It merely means that, like the article suggested, I looked at everything in my pack and decided what the minimum was that I was happy with. It's also very much a trial and error game.

And you can hardly blame REI for highlighting gear that they sell. There was nothing *wrong* with any of the choices they mentioned, and they did preface some choices with a "for instance".

>Yup. I've been reading a lot here, and my base weight for Yosemite will be over 20 lbs. Much of the problem is cost (I'm just not in a position to replace expensive gear). The other is that this is my wife's second backpacking trip ever. She still wants luxuries that I would be willing to do without (lantern for example).

However, that base weight is done from 40 lbs. And I had actually worked to get it down to that prior to coming here!<

Larry,
Dropping below 40 lb is great! I dare say most of the hard core folks here have spent a lot of time moving from their 40+ lb loads down to the10+ lb range. I know it took me several years to get there both in terms of comfort with the idea and financially.

I like Ross's idea of getting a scale and weighing everything and then working from there. That is what really helped me a lot. Gives you perspective. :-)
-Mark

>And I also would put <12lbs as minimalist. On some trips my water and food alone will weigh that much. Add in gear and I rarely leave the house below 20lbs. Doesn't mean I haven't got out my scales and splashed out on some fancy cottage equipment, not that I don't know what I'm doing and don't have adequate skills. It merely means that, like the article suggested, I looked at everything in my pack and decided what the minimum was that I was happy with. It's also very much a trial and error game.

And you can hardly blame REI for highlighting gear that they sell. There was nothing *wrong* with any of the choices they mentioned, and they did preface some choices with a "for instance".<

This goes back to what I said earlier about them including food and water in their numbers. From what I've seen most traditional backpackers don't use anything resembling the term base weight. In which case the numbers make much more sense.

However, there is no need to use the fact that REI doesn't carry MLD, GG, SMD, etc. as a crutch for the article. What they do carry are some bivy bags, tarps, Golite packs, titanium stakes, and alcohol stoves. Other than bivy bags I see no mention of any of these things in the article (unless you count "soda can" under the stove heading of one of their charts with no explanation) and thus my qualm isn't that they highlighted gear they sell but, rather, that they left out so much of the applicable gear they do sell. Because of this the article lacks a lot of depth. I feel I must repeat my earlier statement; the author creates the impression that he doesn't understand lightweight backpacking techniques or even the gear his company carries.

Actually, in hindsight, it might be better to say he creates the impression that he doesn't understand how some of the gear his company carries relates to lightweight backpacking techniques. This may actually be the case but I don't really know seeing as how I've never met Mr. Wood.

Edited by veriest1 on 06/16/2010 20:31:25 MDT.

Yes, there is much that was left out. The author alluded to the fact that there are, for instance, lighter shelter option (he mentioned a tarp) but that *most* mainstream folks would be more comfortable in a shelter that excluded bugs. I happen to think that from a mainstream point of view he was spot on. Most folks don't move straight from a 6 lb indestructible bug-proof and draft-proof shelter to a 4oz poncho tarp with ground sheet in one move. Again, I thought it was OK as an intro for beginners, though I agree some other very good pointers were left out, such as get a good scale and weigh everything and put the data into a spreadsheet.