I'm not Christian, don't believe in the ideas, and have a lot of trouble with the way the religion conducts itself, but I do, however, find a lot of wisdom and practical knowledge in the teachings of Christ, especially concerning dealing with neighbors. Many people here say the problems with Mexico are insurmountable, that they are far too complicated to deal with. I completely disagree. I think people are making the solutions far more difficult than they have to be. It is a human problem, after all. It doesn't take much to put down your gun, step across the border, offer your hand, and try to talk, to make a serious effort to establish a rapport. The problem is that people want to see adversity even when there is none. Mexicans are suffering. Badly. The violence and crime come from somewhere. It doesn't just spontaneously sprout. Drug lords arise in poverty stricken places, and not affluent places, for a very good reason. Poor countries have lots of corruption for a reason (and vice versa, corruption engenders poverty).

I think if you let yourself think about all the tiny problems that can arise then you end up not being able to move at all. But some first step has to be taken. Obviously most of you here are deeply dissatisfied with the present situation. So then, think outside the box, bust the conceptual block. Come up with unconventional ideas and brainstorm. Together. Find solutions, Together. Talk. Together. Stop being afraid of trying something new.

Take the border down. Yes. WIll there be problems? Oh yes. The pressure has been so blocked up that it's going to burst out. But expect that and plan for it. And keep to the idea of forging a trust. Eventually things will pipe down and a balance will establish itself. I don't think the border problem can be solved without some initial steam blowing off.

Change is always preceded by vision that may not be apparent to everyone at first. And it can seem quite threatening and scary.

Miguel, all of your ideas are noble

Err, thanks, Ken. But it's not nobility or even being seen as a good guy that I'm trying to talk about. I'm trying to see beyond the stopgap that seems to be holding up the immigration problem that the US is facing. Personally I see the border itself as the very cause of the problem that everyone is so worked up about. America alone cannot open up the border or stop people crossing over illegally. Mexico has to do as much on its side to help curb the whole problem. This is not a short-term solution at all. It is a very long, slow, probably extremely frustrating at times process. And it involves a lot of initial negotiating and idea sharing.

I'm only offering the idea of the open border as one solution. I'm not saying it is the answer. I'm hoping that by offering this one idea that newer ideas will grow out of it and the eventual solution will evolve out of discussion. Sort of a BPL MYOG roundtable!

Edited by butuki on 05/20/2010 19:08:14 MDT.

Miguel,

Let me try to summarize what I am thinking:

*) We all agree that the poor in Mexico need to become better off. The issues are how we get there from here, and what the appropriate role for the US is in getting there.

*) I do not know what makes Mexican poor any more deserving than the desperately poor elsewhere in the world. Pragmatically, they may get more of our attention because we share a land border and they are causing us problems, but I see no higher morality to helping Mexican poor than to helping any other similarly poor people.

*) Simply inviting all of the world's poor who want to come live within our borders to do so is not workable.

*) The belief that the US is endlessly wealthy, and can simply buy a solution is false.

*) The US has a bad track record of interfering in the affairs of other countries, especially in Latin America. We have been notorious for that, and it has been a major source of anti-Americanism. I do not know how to help the poor in any country other than by either working with their own government or yet again meddling in another country's affairs (directly or indirectly).

*) It will be hard to pressure other countries to take care of their poor when we have our own issues with unemployment and homelessness (do as I say, not as I do, anyone?)

*) Taking Mexico as an example, we need to either figure out how to work with the Mexican government to help the poor, or figure out how to foster change inside Mexico so that their government will be replaced with a better one. If the stereotype of a corrupt Mexican government is anywhere near true, the former will not be realistic. The latter is arguably meddling in their affairs and will take a long time -- unfortunately, Americans are not known for their long attention span for such things.

*) I see the first paragraph of your recent posting as appropriate if there was a corruption-free Mexican government to work with. Unfortunately, at least by stereotype, that is not the case.

*)Your second paragraph admits the corruption and I infer from that lack of interest in helping their own poor. The sorts of things you suggest in that paragraph are suggestions for us managing to re-shape Mexico -- the fabled American meddling and cultural imperialism. Here is how some would see the suggestions from your second paragraph:

How about, within America, openly supporting those in Mexico who are trying to bring about constructive change?
Meddling in their internal affairs

How about presenting media images of Mexico in a positive light, with projections of what Mexico could be like if given the chance?
Sounds good, but given a free press, how do you suggest we make that happen? For better or for worse, our press is in the sensational/entertainment business, and what you suggest is neither of those.

Find ways to help Mexicans gain confidence in themselves and their ability to wrought good change in their society?
Tricky to do without again looking as if we are meddling in their affairs.

How about offering scholarships to Mexicans who show promise to study at universities in the States so they can bring back knowledge and expertise to their country?
That one sounds good -- we should do that.

There are so many ways to bring about change and to help things move in a positive way.
The trick is to find ones that cannot be seen as the latest example of American meddling in another country's internal affairs.

Edited by blean on 05/20/2010 19:18:16 MDT.

Miguel,

You repeatedly talk about opening up, talking to, and working with our neighbors across the border.

Who can argue with that?

But we need someone to talk to, someone to work with. What I question is whom we are going to be talking to. How far can we get talking to a corrupt government that keeps its poor down, fails to provide education for them, and whose main interest is in retaining power?

Perhaps my description of that government is too harsh?

--Bob

Miguel,

As I think about it, my best stab at a workable solution -- one that could happen in a reasonable amount of time -- is:

*) We need to convince the Mexican government that it is in their own best interest to bring prosperity to all of their people.

*) We should be willing to do what we can to work with them to make that happen.

Are there good Latin American examples? What about Brazil -- is that a good example?

--Bob

Bob, thanks for trying so hard (actually harder than anyone else!) to talk with me. I know it is frustrating and at times doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't completely make sense to me! :^)

Perhaps my description of that government is too harsh?

Golly, no! The Mexican government is one of the huge causes of the endless problems in Mexico!

I do not know what makes Mexican poor any more deserving than the desperately poor elsewhere in the world.

They're not. Just that they are your immediate neighbors. You both have to live together. Plus, there's the border problem right there. So that's where you start, I guess.

Are there good Latin American examples? What about Brazil -- is that a good example?

Brazil has lots of corruption and bad management. Though I think their traditional way of on the whole avoiding violence to solve problems has a lot of merit. And in many ways they (the populace, not the government) handle ethnic diversity better than the States does.

Believe it or not, one of the best examples, and one which almost all Latin American countries are now looking up to for guidance and leadership, is Venezuela and President Chavez. He is single-handedly changing how Latin America sees itself and has for the first time in history managed to start getting leaders of the Latin American countries to sit down together at the table and begin talking about change in Latin America. The American government hasn't liked him until now and even tried to eliminate him, and he has enormous obstacles to overcome, but I think he is the kind of leader that Latin America has needed for a very long time. Even the Mexicans are listening. Latin America is in a giant flux right now, with a very active move toward creating more just and sustainable societies. It's very interesting to watch and if they are successful, could prove to be the new model for societies around the world to take cues from. They do have a very long way to go, but the ball has started rolling, which is more than can be said for everything that has come before.

"Perhaps my description of that government is too harsh?"

I think you're describing most any government, including our own (and no, that's not a cheap shot at Obama, I certainly prefer him to the last bumbling administration. But I'm a cynic, I think all career politicians have corrupted themselves/their ideals in order to stay in office. As with everything, some more than others.)

I also think we dance around the real root causes of poverty and unrest -- too many people having too many kids, an ignorant electorate voting (when they do) their bigotry/hatred/fears, and corrupted politicians/the wealthy ruling class keeping the ignorant electorate fearful and full of hate.

Borders have nothing to do with it, other than to provide an easy enemy. But we find easy enemies everywhere for certain audiences, we don't need borders for that (Willie Horton ad, anyone?).

I will add, though, that I like to approach any discussion thinking that I could very well be wrong. That generally (not always, I'm far from perfect) keeps me from getting too emotional and just calling names or propagating more hatred.

Oh yeah, and jingoism sucks.

I will add, though, that I like to approach any discussion thinking that I could very well be wrong. That generally (not always, I'm far from perfect) keeps me from getting too emotional and just calling names or propagating more hatred.

Amen, Doug. And I'd further add that your sense of humor probably makes it far easier for others to talk to you than to me! I can be a real stick in the mud!

Edited by butuki on 05/20/2010 20:13:11 MDT.

"So it's time to reduce the standard of the American dream, or we all go down the gurgler."

What's that giant sucking sound I hear in the background? ;}

+1 your whole post, Lynn. Spot on, IMO.

"I can be a real stick in the mud!"

Oh, I don't know Miguel. Your posts are most often very thoughtful and come from the heart. I'm just not smart enough to be that thoughtful!

[deleted a bunch of useless rambling]

Edited by idester on 05/20/2010 21:56:54 MDT.

Bob, thanks for trying so hard (actually harder than anyone else!) to talk with me. I know it is frustrating and at times doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't completely make sense to me! :^)

You are welcome. I try to approach things logically. That can be a strength, but at times when dealing with people issues it can be a weakness as well.

You have asked that I stop asking so many questions and offer a solution of my own. Here goes.

As I see it, having stable, friendly, prosperous neighbors on our borders is in the best interest of the US -- geopolitically as well as from a humanitarian point of view. If we could achieve that, the illegal immigration problems would go away. (After all, we don't have a Canadian illegal immigration problem, and pregnant Canadian women do not make their way over the border so their babies can be born in the USA.)

If we want something to happen in another country, such as Mexico, there are a limited number of ways we can go about getting what we want.

1. If we are lucky, their government wants the same thing, or can be persuaded to want that. This is by far the best option. We just sit back and applaud, or help them if they need that.


2. We patiently await a change of government, and hope the successor regime meets #1. This is not guaranteed to be successful, is too passive for the American temperament, and is apt to take too long for the American temperament.


3. We, one way or another, cause a change of government. This has a number of problems, such as:

• Be careful what you wish for -- you might get it. Changes we have engineered in the past have not always worked out as we desired.


• This is obviously interference in the internal affairs of another country -- something that has caused us problems in the past, and has given rise to significant anti-American feelings (and consequent problems).

4. We work around their government. For minor things, that can work. I do not think it is likely to work for something as big as making Mexico prosperous.

• Perhaps we can convince them that it really is in their own best interest. I do not know whether it actually is; that depends on what is most important to them. It might be.


• Perhaps we an convince them that the change is inevitable, and they come out of it best by leading the change -- not suffering a strong and unpleasant backlash later.


• Perhaps we can supply incentives in one form or another that make it in their best interest.

• Kill the US's demand-pull
• Encourage cultural interchange where possible, such as people going to college (preferably both ways)
• Simply be as friendly as possible to Mexico

Edited by blean on 05/20/2010 23:16:27 MDT.

Miguel,

I hardly think Venezuela and Chavez is a good example. Do you know any people from Venezuela? I had a classmate from Venezuala in grad school. He won't even go back home now. I have another acquaintance that had a fishing guide business in Venezuela. I said HAD, because the government siezed all his assets. This is not an isolated incident. See the drop in foreign investment as nobody now wants to put money into a country that might just decide to take your business away at any time. Ex: oil, supermarkets, etc

He keeps claiming to try to end shortages of food and other staples, but his policies themselves are creating the problems as any half way decent economist could have predicted.

He is TRYING to trade oil for weapons with Russia and China, but is now running into problems. He kicked out international oil companies and stole their paid for interests in the oil fields, but now can't get the oil out without them.

He is a catastophe in the making.

Chavez has eliminated term limits and set himself up as a dictator now. His growing popularity centers around two things: anti-Americanism and oil. He now controls the press and stifles the opposition. Crime and economic problems are growing. See his recent move to try to stop currency trading.

He also uses the judicial system against political opponents.

"There are really only two ways to "solve" the problem. One is to make America poorer and more persecuted, the other is to make poor countries richer and "freer" (and have that wealth distributed more fairly)."

Wealth redistribution is fair? I worked my butt off in undergrad and grad school to provide my family a good life, why should my hard earnings be distributed to hose not willing to work as hard?

You leave out another, tried and true (at least in other places) method of solving the problem, don't let people sneak into your country.

"the only way the global economy can ever reach an economic fairness"

What the hell is economic fairness?, didn't your parents ever teach you life isn't fair? you get what you work for.

"Most poverty has nothing to do with people being lazy."

True on an international scale, but not on a national scale such as in the US.

My favorite quote about personal responsibility "Barring serious mental illness or physical disability, you are where you are in life based on the decisions you have made, no one did this to you, you did it to yourself."

I grew up in a poor family (in a poor neighborhood too - 32°11'57.52"N - 110°55'25.63"W), went into the military to get money for college, paid for the rest on my own (working 2 jobs even with the GI bill). To me (at least in the US) lazy and poverty are closely related.

Edited by knarfster on 05/21/2010 13:02:25 MDT.

+1 Frank

My Dad's favorite saying was "The world doesn't owe you a living".

I thought it was jerkish when I was growing up, but I'm thankful every day that he taught me that lesson.

The "I worked hard for everything I have and other people just don't try hard enough" argument is a complete farce.
Individually, people do work hard...but when race and questions of class and privilege enter the picture everything changes.

What sickens me most is the fact that this argument completely ignores the history of this country, the world, and the fact that a level playing field has never existed.

But instead of addressing a legacy of warfare, colonization, institutional racism, exploitation, and brutality against a plethora of groups during different historical periods, widespread economic disparities are rationalized in the context of "well, some people work hard and some people don't".

It's got to be one of the greatest pieces of propaganda in history.

But Craig, that was then this is now. We cannot right those wrongs. What we can we do today? You are correct that we have not looked into the past histroy of Mexico and it is not pretty. But that country has been a mess for a few hundred years. The problem I have is those that are here (California) that are illegal, say they have a right to be here. Really? How do you have a right to be here when you entered illegally? What about the money spent, on welfare, jails (yes we jail illegal criminals), and our health system. This situation is stressing Arizona and many of the other border states...including California

There is another option to invest in Mexicos government without it being the nasty old imperialist Americans forcing their way. Although America hasn't gotten along very well with them recently, perhaps it's time to revisit the United Nations, whose stated goals are : The UN is an international organization whose stated aims are facilitating cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, and the achieving of world peace.

Mexico's problems should be shared by the world, not just the Americans.

"Wealth redistribution is fair? I worked my butt off in undergrad and grad school to provide my family a good life, why should my hard earnings be distributed to hose not willing to work as hard?"

Lucky you. Just as many folks work their butt off for almost no money, laboring for life because they don't have access to education, much less grad school. And those are the lucky ones who can get jobs. Economic and social fairness is not communism where everyone earns the same regardless of effort. It's just about giving folks an opportunity to work for a fair wage, and have fair access to health, education and welfare (not everyone is capable of working, so some charity is called for too.) IMHO, this should have been at the top of the US Bill of Rights: Health, education and welfare.

As we all (should) know but seemingly hate to admit, both sides have truth. Neither have complete truth.

There are lazy people who are poor because they are lazy. There are exceptionally hard working people who are poor because of a multitude of reasons mostly beyond their control, many of which Craig rightfully mentions.

There are, of course, some very well to do (rich, if you will) people who are lazy as well, but lucked into their position in life. Hard work had nothing to do with it.

The world ain't black and white (well, not since the 30s anyway [homage to Calvin & Hobbes]). We love to stick people in easily defined groups, unfortunately few actually fit very neatly in those groups. We'd often prefer not to actually try and see something from beyond our own experience. And we are easily -- way too easily in my experience -- enraged by offhanded, meaningless comments that serve to do nothing more than steer the conversation away from constructive dialog and understanding. Bob and Miguel are trying to rise above that, and I commend them (not that THAT means much! Who the hell am I to commend anyone!)

But there are, unfortunately, a plethora of people who simply don't want to see any evidence beyond their own very narrow vision of the world/life, because that just might require them to actually think outside their neat little constructed world.

And thinking. Well now, I've got better things to do that that. (That might have been a quote from Reagan, I'm not sure.....).

"But Craig, that was then this is now."


Nice.
I read that as: Get over it.

Funny, there seems to be this historical pattern here.
The takers take and reap the rewards of imperialism, exploitation, and racism for generations, while the people they crush, enslave, or demoralize are expected to forgive them of their transgressions. But when they don't want to forgive, because they STILL live the consequences of those transgressions every day...now THEY become the unreasonable ones, the ones that can't just "move on". Because "that was then and this is now".

When I hear "that was then and this is now" and "why don't people just move on", and "they should get over it" I take notice of the fact that statements like this are rarely made by victims, but always by the colonizers, the dominant culture, the benefactors of the exploitation of others.

Edited by xnomanx on 05/21/2010 15:23:13 MDT.

Adopt Mexico as a state. Get rid of the borders. Make them pay taxes. If we want to stay at 50, drop Hawaii as a state and just call it a "resort for the rich". problem fixed. I work with a bunch of people from other countries. Some good, some not. One just had his 8th child. We asked how he can afford that, he said "I don't pay for it" I guess it turns out that I pay for it. Darn the luck. America is a "free" country that the honest tax payers pick up the tab. But don't worry, Obama is gonna make everything better. He's gonna make airplanes out of beef.