I found out today that I can not use my "Beloved" Ursaks in Rocky Mountain National Park. I never checked to make sure they were approved until today... Apparently there don't like Kevlar and told me the Kevlar fibers denature after getting wet. News to me, but that is their rule.

Now I need to buy new bear containers for a Memorial Day trip - I'm taking the in-laws (parents and sister in-law's family) and I have to spend some money.

We will be out 3 days, 2 nights (5 meals worth of food after day 1) with 6 Adults, 2 teenagers and my little guy. We typically eat well when we go out so we will have a little more food than normal (we will celebrate a birthday, anniversary and Mothers day). We'll also need to store a kit for a diabetic in addition to the food and personal items.

I'm looking at the Bare Boxer 202 Champ for weight and packability - my question is, will I need 3 or 4 containers?

Thanks for the input.

Mike

Edited by mlebwill on 05/04/2010 21:13:17 MDT.

Mike,
Have you considered Wild Ideas and their rental program?

They have 2 sizes of canisters - 650 ci and 900 ci.

Rental charges are for Days on the Trail, not transit times.
If you need it a few days early, like for travel, let them know and they will ship early.

They are pretty easy to work with. It can't hurt to ask them if you can get a "multi-canister discount".

Just a thought.

Edited by greg23 on 05/04/2010 21:22:50 MDT.

That is a good thought Greg. I'm going to need at least 1 when I go now, so I'll have to buy. But I could buy 1 Bare Boxer and rent 2 or 3 Bearikades...

Their products sure look nice, but wow are they expensive.

I guess I would still have a similar question - 3 or 4 containers?

Edit - after looking at the rental cost - including to and from shipping I would be pretty close to the same expense as buying the Bare Boxers outright. Then I could have a fire sale in gear swap.

Edited by mlebwill on 05/04/2010 21:40:41 MDT.

Yes.

Cheap, light, approved.

Pick Two.

Hopefully the Ursack will eventually be approved.
What a bunch of dunderheads.

We will be out 3 days, 2 nights (5 meals worth of food after day 1) with 6 Adults, 2 teenagers and my little guy. We typically eat well when we go out so we will have a little more food than normal

I guess I would still have a similar question - 3 or 4 containers?

One way to look at it is to use a rule of thumb. Wild Ideas seems to (loosely) estimate 100 cubic inches per person per day. Some postings at BPL say they can do somewhat better than that, but with careful packing (which does not seem to apply to you on your planned trip). I have noted that the rule is pretty close to some experiences that Bob G has posted.

You seem to be planning at least 2.5 days for at least 8 people. That would suggest at least 2000 cubic inches, which would be your Bare Boxer plus two rented Bearikade Expeditions. Suggestion: try mocking up that space and see how it works for you.

Note that the Bear Boxer Contender is 275 cu in -- you would need about 7-8 of them if the rule is at all close. Not too surprising, since you will have 8 people, and each BB is rated for 3 days (one person).

I'm not sure how you count "little guy" and what impact "We typically eat well" will have, but the rule may give you a starting point.

Does anyone else have any comments on the 100 cu in per day rule?

-- MV

Edited by blean on 05/04/2010 22:05:40 MDT.

Bob - That is a good starting spot. My 8 year old will eat as much as my wife if we let him and our teenage nephews will eat until I'm broke (assuming I'm paying).

I'm dehydrating all of our meals and we won't bring any pre-packaged freeze dried meals. A mock up may be the way to go. I could use some alum flashing to get an idea of the dimensions.

My thought is if a Bare Boxer 202 will provide enough room for 1 person @ 7 days I should be able to 2 people @ 3 days with plenty of room from 1 canister. But I'll try the mock up and if in doubt I'll buy 4.

Mike

You have Ursacks, right? And you know the volume of each of those, right? So you know the total volume that would be needed for your food if you loaded it into them.

Take that total volume, and figure that in a hard-shell canister you will get 80%-90% of the packing density that you had with Ursack. So increase your total volume number by 10%-20%.

Now choose one of the hard-shell canister products, and they typically have a specified internal volume. Divide your total volume number that was increased by this specified internal volume number, then round up to the next integer number. That is the quantity of them to buy or rent.

--B.G.--

My thought is if a Bare Boxer 202 will provide enough room for 1 person @ 7 days

Note that Bare Boxer is more aggressive with their duration estimates that Wild Ideas is. The big BB is advertised as good for 7 days; it is slightly fewer cubic inches than the Bearikade Weekender, which is rated at 6 days.

That's why you need to pay more attention to cubic inches than to the manufacturer's claim of a certain number of days.

-- MV

"What a bunch of dunderheads."

Right on, Greg. RMNP is quite proud of its 20 black bears, and they'll go to great lengths to overly protect them. Except spend money to erect some bear poles. They even removed the ammo containers that were in half the campsites (hikers were using them as trash receptacles; those folks were dunderheads too).

But to be fair, RMNP is a relatively small park. And being so close to a metro area, it receives a lot of visitors each summer. So they have to do something to limit the traces of so many hikers/campers. But c'mon, they could set up some hanging poles, and let folks use their Ursacks, don't ya think?

Perfect math - I can do that. No need to mess around with flashing. If I went fairly conservative we would need 2.5 (round to 3) Ursacks, and that would leave a little room.

Calc = 650 ci*3 ursacks = 1,950 ci * 1.15% = ~ 2,200 ci / 608 ci Bare Boxer Champ = 3.5 containers.

Looks like I could go with 3 - 202 Champs and 1 - 101 Contender.

That works assuming the buy method - if I rented I could go with 1 purchased Bare Boxer and 2 rented Bearikade Expeditions.

Thanks,

Mike

Don't forget to allow room for non-food "smellables", such as everyone's toiletries, etc. That could be a noticeable volume for your size group.

--MV

>Don't forget to allow room for non-food "smellables", such as everyone's toiletries, etc. That could be a noticeable volume for your size group.

Agreed - I'll probably sneak an Ursack in with me just in case - at the very least I can store the cooking gear in there.

Chose compact food items:

stick pasta instead of elbow macaroni.

real rice instead of quick rice(be prepared for the extra cooking hassle).

Dehydrated fruit instead of fresh.

Maybe more cooking oil than you would normally carry.

etc....

Did you find this out by calling them or did you read it somewhere? I was planning on using an Ursack there this summer.

I googled "rocky mountain national park backcountry camping" and found out "bear canisters are required at all campsites BELOW treeline",so if you plan on camping in the really high country you might not need canisters. however,it would be a good idea to find this all out ahead of time.

Kevin:

http://www.nps.gov/romo/planyourvisit/backcntry_guide.htm

It is listed under the "At Camp" section, next to the second bullet point.

Re-posted from another thread for your convenience and information is my comparison chart below.
note: Garcia manufacturer does not post canister's volume.

Edited by herman666 on 05/06/2010 06:27:03 MDT.

Thanks for the chart, Keith. Very helpful. Bearikade generally kicks everybody else's butt in terms of lb/ci for a given class of canister.

This RMNP canister requirement is relatively new. I didn't have to use one for my 2007 trip. Sux.

Ursack sued SBBIG to allow Ursacks, but SBBIG outfoxed them and simply disbanded. Now Ursack has to sue each entity one at a time. Sigh. Did I mention that I hate canisters?

One trick -- probably everybody knows this but what the heck -- is that your first days food doesn't need to fit into the canister. Only what will be packed away at night (food + smells) needs to be in the canister. So, live large the first day my friend: french bread, fresh veggies, you name it.

Death to bear canisters,

HJ

I hate bear canisters, but I hate the alternative more. In the old days they probably would have gone with cyanide bait for bears like they did for wolves.

Ursack is not fool proof. If 95% of the users do it right that leaves plenty of fools feeding bears. Canisters aren't quite fool proof either but I think the foolure rate is lower.

Canister requirement is just one of the rules of the game. Accept that and move on with your life.

Is there a rental program in/near RMNP? For a short trip where you want to eat well I suggest more than 100 ci per night, so I'd go with 4 Garcia or similar sized cans.

Edited by jimqpublic on 05/05/2010 11:27:44 MDT.

Kevin - I had the discussion when I was booking my Backcountry permit. It is new - implemented last summer but I never bothered to find out if Ursacks were allowed.

Keith - great chart - I may try and update the chart to include the larger Bear Boxer - but that should be very similar to a Garcia. I would love to get a Bearikade but I'm not ready to tell the kid he can't go to college.

Thanks,

Mike

Edited by mlebwill on 05/05/2010 13:22:12 MDT.