Companion forum thread to:

MYOG: Knotless PCT Bear Bag Hang

Great instructional video!

For those that still use the clove hitch method, there are alternative ways to tie a clove hitch which I use when I am sailing. When boat comes to a dock you often only have seconds to tie a clove hitch to secure the boat before it drifts back.

I am awful at explaining it, but you can make two loops and overlap them and then put a stick, etc. through the two lips and you will get a clove hitch. Thus, if there is 20 feet of extra line there is no need to pass all that line through a loop to tie the knot.

You can find a video of it here

Edited by jeff.k on 04/27/2010 17:43:38 MDT.

There is an alternative method that (I find) works much better. You don't need any clove hitches or sticks or any of that. Besides, with the PCT method, you end up with a rope dangling down toward the ground. Any self-respecting bear can bite on that and pull it to see what happens.

The Two-Rope Counterbalance Method requires two ropes or cords, but there is no rope dangling down to the ground for the bear to grab.

For about twenty years prior to bear canisters, I used the Two-Rope method in Yosemite without any loss of food to the bears. Arguably, the Yosemite black bear is pretty intelligent.

--B.G.--

Great knotless method - easy to do and easy to remember! I'll be using it this season whenever I need to hang food. Thanks!

I just love it when such simple things turn out to be so brilliant!

My problem is not the knot; I can deal with that. I don't know who got the idea you have to thread the whole rope through the clove hitch loop--JeffK has the right idea! My problem is that due to shoulder arthritis I can't throw! (Not that I was ever good at throwing when I was young, either--couldn't hit the side of a barn when inside it!) There's also the issue that I'm short with short arms, which limits the height I can get the bag to what is probably within the bear's reach.

It's the Ursack for me, or, if I have no other choice, a bear canister.

Edited by hikinggranny on 04/27/2010 20:17:42 MDT.

Clove hitch tying while under a load:

1. Take stick (or extra stake, chop stick, spoon handle, etc) in right hand, reach over head, place stick parallel and left of cord, wrap upper end of stick around cord (back to right to front), turn stick perpendicular to cord (stick now has a single loop of cord around it); now you can control load with stick in right hand using right thumb on cord

2. With left hand (thumb down), grab cord below stick, turn hand up (thumb up), place loop on left end of stick

3. Tighten your clove hitch

For easier removal, it's best to use something smooth like extra stake, dowel, chop stick, skewer.

Edited by jshann on 04/27/2010 20:46:31 MDT.

Thanks for all the comments people. JeffK that video you posted certainly looks easier than how I was attempting to tie the clove hitch on the stick but I wasn't joking when I said I was no good with knots! My little PVC trick allows for me to do what I do best....not think too much. Haha! If anyone tries it out in the real life let me know what you think...until this article was posted only myself and three of my friends had seen it in action and only I have really used it.

What about just using two bags -- perhaps one for food and one for trash? Secure the second bag to the line instead of either a stick or the length of PVC the OP suggests. The only requirement is that bag #2 cannot pull through the min-biner.

Advantage over PCT: no stick or PVC, and (if desired) one could tuck the rope end into bag #2 (as with normal counter-bagging).

Advantage over normal counter-bagging: bag #2 does not need to be equal weight -- it can be any weight not greater than bag #1.

-- MV

Edited by blean on 04/27/2010 21:53:14 MDT.

I love this idea! This would seem to add some simplicity to my bear bag set up (no need to search for an appropriate stick/twig and easier than the clove hitch to tie). I could add a hole large enough to clip the pvc sleeve to my caribiner, keeping everything nice and organized.

I plan on trying it out this weekend on an over-nighter in the Cascades.

With multiple use in mind, is there anything else you could use the piece of PVC for or is there anything in your kit already that would serve or could serve the same purpose with two holes drilled into it?

Some initial thoughts:

-A MSR Pocket Rocket Case for those of you who carry those

-A measuring cup with two holes drilled towards the top

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but I am mystified -- what problem is being solved here?

One of the ultralight precepts is substituting knowledge for gear. This gadget looks to me as if it does just the opposite. As far as I can tell, the only "problem" being solved is the alleged difficulty of tying a clove hitch.

Unlike what the video says, one can easily tie a clove hitch without pulling the whole end through when one has access to the end of the stick. (FWIW I just took another look and both of the youTube videos I found show doing it right -- no pulling the end through.)

You do, however, need to pull the whole end through this new gadget. I just do not see how the proposed way is easier than the traditional way. It seems like one more light (but slightly bulky) piece of unnecessary gear.

OK -- feel free to point out what I am missing -- what problem does this piece of gear actually solve?

Your friendly neighborhood curmudgeon,
MV

Edited by blean on 04/28/2010 04:02:15 MDT.

Bob,

I am kind of in your boat. I guess I would consider using this method if there was something I was already carrying that could be used if I drilled holes in it. To me, a clove hitch on a bight is not really all that hard to tie.

To make untying easier in the AM, write "FRONT" on the front of the PVC, so you know where to start.

I'm going to have to try it because I don't see it being that much easier either.

One should spell out an acronym in the first reference. And I haven't been hanging around the correct places, obviously.

What does MYOG mean? My guess: Make Your Own Gear. Ditto FWIW: For What It's Worth?

If both are true, then I should be able to hang a bear bag with no difficulty. But familiarity with words does not translate to familiarity with knots or bear-bag hanging. Thanks for the video and for the intelligent, knowledgeable comments here.

+1 with Bob B. Thanks for the time and effort to make the video. But a clove hitch couldn't be easier to tie. If you need two hands for whatever reason you could stand on the rope until you get it tied.


Alfred look here for a glossary http://wiki.backpackinglight.com/Category:Abbreviations

Edited by kthompson on 04/28/2010 06:55:12 MDT.

For tying a quick clove hitch on my tarp and trekking poles, I just use the mnemonic: clove and clockwise start with "cl", so I make 2 clockwise turns in the line and run my trekking pole through both of them. I'm sure this has been around since the dark ages, but I found it in Jardine's book.

FWIW: The MYOG bear bag hang is a major PITA, and will have you screaming WTF over and over. Make sure you have a good trip and LOL lots, but don't let a bear get your food bag or you will be SOL. (No children or small animals were harmed in the use of these acronyms)

Here in the East we don't have to worry about bears too much but when I have I use a counterbalance method I learned at http://www.johnreedfamily.com/~johnwmreed/Bear_Bags/Pages_2/. This is a counterbalance method but it doesn't entail anything complicated. This MYOG project appears to be a modification to the PCT hang method - correct? My question about the PCT method is, as stated by another poster, what keeps the bear from pulling on the dangling cord and possibly retrieving your food?

Hey Joe Geib no need to write Front on the front, it is pretty easy to tell which end you pull around to the back to release. Which ever line is hanging to the ground that is the one you pull around to the back to release.

For the minimalists and peeps comfortable with knots this system might not be your cup of tea however give it a try - I'd like the (post)opinion of those who are good at the traditional knot on stick. Thanks!

Vernon - If the bear pulls the rope (if they can even get a hold on a small rope) they are simply going to pull the bag up to the branch. They would have to get the stick (or in this case PVC) off the rope in order to drop the bag. I'm not sure if the PCT is ideal for all locations. I camp in the Appalachians of NC and it works well here.

One of the ultralight precepts is substituting knowledge for gear. This gadget looks to me as if it does just the opposite. As far as I can tell, the only "problem" being solved is the alleged difficulty of tying a clove hitch.

Although I agree with you statement about substitution knowledge for gear, Bob I have a suspicion that you've not used the PCT method with a heavy food bag. A clove hitch in and of itself is not hard to tie but it is hard to tie with one hand when you're standing on your "tippy toes" and supporting the weight of a heavy bag all while trying not to let any slippage occur in the rope.

"A clove hitch in and of itself is not hard to tie but it is hard to tie with one hand when you're standing on your "tippy toes" and supporting the weight of a heavy bag all while trying not to let any slippage occur in the rope."

And it is worse when you waited until after dark to do it. And worse yet when the tree is located on a slope, so you have to keep rebalancing your stance as you try to manhandle the food bags. (Been there, done that.)

--B.G.--

like the idea, but two things. Anything that adds weight i have to say no to, beause i already have alot of luxuries (aarn pack, gps, etc). I don't need anymore. Plus clove hitch is cake.

"You do, however, need to pull the whole end through this new gadget. I just do not see how the proposed way is easier than the traditional way."

You are however doing it while the line is not under tension so it's no biggie. I have come up with a new design since writing this though where you do not have to pass the entire line through the PVC...it takes a bit more time to make though.

Bob I have a suspicion that you've not used the PCT method with a heavy food bag.

I guess the question is "how heavy is heavy?" I just went out in my backyard and hung 16 lbs (a good week's worth of food + sundries) with no problem. I had no feeling I was near the limit of what I could handle. (I admit it is not snowing, dark, and on a steep hillside.)

In particular, the clove hitch was no problem. It isn't hard to get the first half-hitch around the stick. Then pinch it and it's even easier to hold while you put the second half hitch around the stick.

(For those who are unfamiliar, this YouTube video on the PCT method does a reasonable job of tying the clove hitch at about minute 1:35.)

--MV

Edited by blean on 04/28/2010 13:21:36 MDT.

I watched a group hanging their food in Yosemite's Lyell Canyon one time (before bear canisters). This was a group of 12-14 people, and they were going to Red's Meadow, so I think they were out for 5-6 days. That's a lot of food weight. Anyway, they had two regular size Army duffel bags filled with food, and they had a line up over a steel cable between two trees. Three or four guys were tugging away strenuously trying to get those heavy bags up. I couldn't bear ( ! ) to watch, so I just hung up my own little stash.

--B.G.--

Bob (Blean) I think regardless of how easily you can perform the stick and hitch you will find my system easier. Will it be so much easier that you want to carry an extra item + gram of weight? That is going to depend from person to person. For you maybe not. Give it a shot though and let me know what you think. I like the constructive criticism!

A clove hitch in and of itself is not hard to tie

There are two kinds of people in the world ...
1) Knot People
2) those who are not
Group 1 people need only see a knot tied once or twice and it's their for life whereas it is near impossible to teach group two how to tie even a simple clove hitch ... and don't even think about showing them a bowline on a bight or the crown of an end splice!

That video clip is good enough, except that the guy should have used something that looked like a food bag. Instead, he used his rock bag. I knew what he was trying to do, but some complete newbie might be confused.

--B.G.--

Actually that was a stuff sack not my rock bag and I use that stuff sack on occasion to hang food.

That video clip is good enough, except ...

I quite agree; I was conscious of that. I chose it because it does an OK job of showing tying the clove hitch around the stick.

Here's a video that does a better job of illustrating the PCT method, at the cost of not doing a good job of showing tying the clove hitch.

Note that neither video points out related facts, such as that it would be best to hang your food away from your camp, and from a tree that other backpackers do not use (so the bear has no reason to think of your tree as a "food tree").

--MV

Edited by blean on 04/28/2010 13:46:43 MDT.

Oops. Thought you were referring to my vid.

Delay's version of tying the clove hitch under a load is still not as easy as mine (published right here in July '09 btw ; D) since he is switching hands, holding a rope against the stick (with heavy bag is harder), etc.

"(For those who are unfamiliar, this YouTube video on the PCT method does a reasonable job of tying the clove hitch at about minute 1:35.)"

Off-topic digression here ...

Group 1 people need only see a knot tied once or twice and it's their for life whereas it is near impossible to teach group two how to tie even a simple clove hitch

You are right. In some cases I think it is just a matter of how good a person is at visualizing things. In other cases, I think that the person could do better by being taught better -- more logically.

Even people for whom knots are hard, though, can learn them. For example, I cannot believe all rock climbers are gifted with knots, but they darned sure learn certain knots if they want to be safe.

You can go surprisingly far by thinking of bights and loops.

* A square not is just two intersecting bights, as are a bread knot and a granny knot. The difference between the square knot and bread knot is just which side the ends are on -- that matters in many knots -- square knot, sheet bend, and bowline are common examples of that.

* Both a sheet bend and a bowline are a loop and bight intersecting. Cut the big loop in a bowline and you cannot tell which knot you started with.

* A double carrick bend is two intersecting loops.

* A half hitch is just a loop around something. Two of them, around the standing part, is two half hitches. Two of them around a stick is a clove hitch.

* A "slipped" or "slippery" knot is just making the last step be pushing a bight through instead of the end. Such knots generally hold as well, and are far easier to untie.

* You tie shoelaces with a double-slipped square knot (or a granny knot, but the square will stay tied better).

As an example of thinking this way, consider a trucker's hitch. The easiest way to think about how to finish it is that you tie the end through the bight, formed by the initial slip knot, as a sheet bend -- or, my preference, a slippery sheet bend (so it will be easy to untie). It is far easier to remember a tucker's hitch as a slip knot, finished with a sheet bend than to try to remember it a one big knot.

Making it easy to remember is not just a gimmick -- I find a trucker's hitch much better for tying things down (including guylines) than any of the slipping knots (such as a tautline hitch). Done in the slippery way, it is easier to get really tight, just about as easy to adjust when needed, and far more secure.

etc

--MV

Edited by blean on 04/28/2010 14:26:15 MDT.

I'm a knot snob. I admit it. It boggles my mind that there are backpackers who can't do an adequate PCT bear hang due to problems with the clove hitch.

But, really, aside me feeling self-superior because of my knot tying prowess, what I care about primarily is this: I want people doing good bear hangs.

Not because I care if their food gets eaten and their trip gets ruined, but because I don't think bears should be made to suffer because of human incompetence. (A fed bear is a dead bear etc. etc.)

So, to the extent that the PVC idea makes it easier for non knot people to keep their food away from bears, I say it's a great idea.

So, to the extent that the PVC idea makes it easier for non knot people ...

Agreed. But does it? I guess so, at least for the OP. I must say that I tried tying it around a rod and I found it (a little) harder than a clove hitch, because it is (a little) more complicated. A clove hitch is just two half hitches around the stick.

Delay's version of tying the clove hitch under a load is still not as easy as mine (published right here in July '09 btw

I agree that he was a little clumsy. How about posting your URL?

--MV

Edited by blean on 04/28/2010 14:12:44 MDT.

Almost forty years ago, I was an assistant instructor in an Army rappelling school overseas. My task was to teach each student about four basic knots, and we had thousands of infantry students to handle, typically a hundred per day.

Once they had seen a specific knot tied about twice, half of them would be ready to go. Some, we would have to show over and over, maybe ten times, and still they couldn't get it. Some would try to fake it, and they would get a granny knot instead of a square knot. But we could not let them get on our rappelling cliff until they had mastered those four basic knots. Some of the students were such klutzes that to this day they use shoes with velcro closures.

--B.G.--

Tying a "clove hitch" in the middle of a rope on a stick is no more than "throwing two half-hitches" around the end of the stick--roll the rope between thumb and fore-finger and it builds the loop, then drop it on the stick, cinch down and repeat=done. Just the way the driver would do with all those reins on the stage coach. Watch more westerns or grab a boy scout handbook. Cowboy

As a diagnosed dyslexic, I can say with absolute certainty that some of us are completely baffled by knots of any kind. My clove hitches simply come apart. I finally learned the imponderable concepts of left and right when I learned to drive. Left is against traffic. Thus, I deeply appreciate this method. I came to work at 5:30 am just so I could make the PVC dingus. I just made it and hoisted my food bag. Easy!

Thanks, Josh, from directionally impaired folks everywhere along the trail.

Stargazer

Edited by nerdboy52 on 04/29/2010 06:20:29 MDT.

B.G.,
Do you know of a video or good text resource for that method?
Thanks,
BL

Never mind, found it online. Thanks anyway,
BL

Thanks Josh, I like it. Being ex U.S. Navy, I don't have much difficulty with the clove hitch, but I think your method is a good idea. Where I go backpacking (Northern California), an approved bear container is required much of the time, so I use a Bareboxer Contender (1.6 lb), odor proof sacks, or a combination of both even in areas that don't require a bear container. It weighs a little more but on the other hand it makes life simpler because you don't have to spend time finding the right tree, which is impossible above timberline, and risk snagging your food 15 feet in the air. Hanging food is definitely the lightest way to go, however.

I have a 288KB JPEG image that shows the Double-Rope Counterbalance Method.

--B.G.--

Brilliant, Josh! And that's a great instructional video. You're really good at explaining and demonstrating. You'd be a great instructor. Thanks for sharing!

Why not just use an URSack???

There are some places where the Ursack is not acceptable. Yosemite National Park is an example.

--B.G.--

Clove hitch ( directions by dyslectic):
Hold line in both hands with the hands about a foot apart in fist with back of the hand up, in punch position. Twist your right hand, moving it to touch the left fist. Fingernails of the right hand are now facing up to your face.
The line is now in a loop. Note that the line coming out of your right hand is now under the line coming out of your left.
Place the loop over one end of the stick.
Pull your right hand back out along the line until you have enough line to make another loop the same as the first.
Place the second loop over the same stick end and over the previous loop. Pull tight with both hands going outwards.
Cove hitch is done.

Thank you, Frank. Your directions make better sense to me than any I've every seen.

Stargazer

For the not-knot people, cool gizmo.

For the knot people, using the PCT method, I am trying to see why a slip knot would not work in place of the clove hitch -- with the stick placed in the loop of the slip knot. One loop around th stick instead of two and technically not as strong for the rope, but I still don't see why it should not be used. What is the reason ???

Cool- a slip knot is harder to get out and I think harder to tie-

Some descriptions of the PCT method do specify a slip knot. Just be careful to get the correct side slipping.

--MV

I think this is quite ingenious, but it is in fact a marlin spike hitch. you've permanently attached the marlin spike, which is the key difference here. You could probably use aluminum arrow shafts like the hammockers do and get the same result for less weight.

I think a MSH (marlin spike hitch) would solve much of the problem for those that struggle with a clove hitch.

With the PCT method, when you (or a bear) pull on the rope, the food goes up -- away from you.

Paul,

You are correct -- it is, in fact, a marlingspike hitch (albeit backwards). And the arrow shaft would certainly be less bulk. But there is a catch.

When tying the hitch, you need to be careful to load the correct side of the knot. The OP is loading the wrong side of the line. He evidently gets away with it because his "permanently attached marlingspike" has enough friction and the load is light enough that it seems to work in practice.

I am not sure you'd have the same success by doing it around something smooth, such as a pen or an arrow shaft -- the knot might collapse, and that might have bad consequences. Which brings up another point -- if the friction with an arrow shaft is enough for it to work in practice, then why not just use a stick instead of carrying any device?

And if there is not enough friction, then go to the real knot -- it is just a slip knot with something solid (a stick) stuck though it. Just be sure the loaded line is the slipping part.

For the knot-challenged, would a slip knot be easier to deal with than a clove hitch is?

--MV

Edited by blean on 05/02/2010 16:18:36 MDT.

Thanks Thomas/Stargazer. Glad you tried it out and like it.

Bob,
"...if the friction with an arrow shaft is enough for it to work in practice, then why not just use a stick instead of carrying any device?"

From personal experience, it is sometimes difficult to extricate a "natural" "spike" from the loop. Many of the UL bear bagging lines get a little fuzzy with use, and when they wrap around a stick, especially one that is rough or still has bark, the two are like velcro.

I took and used a 4" section of aluminum arrow shaft for this purpose. It slides out easily. (I tried carbon fiber, but the cut ends always had tiny splits or splinters that would stab either me or the line.)

Here are some photos to show how to tie the clove hitch around a stick:

1 Hold the stick in your right hand (if right handed) so the line is in front of the stick.

2 With your left hand, grab the line below the stick. Pass the line under then over the stick so the line is to the left of the line coming down from above.

3 Now hold the stick in your left hand, putting your thumb over the line to hold it tight against the stick to hold it in place.

4 Twist the line with your right hand to form a loop.

5 Slip the loop over the right end of the stick and then tighten it against the hanging line and your have tied a clove hitch. See Photos:

http://community.webshots.com/album/577564490qeMyBE

NB. This method is used to make the clove hitch in the middle of the hanging line when it is being pulled by the weight of the hanging food bag, and your hands are reaching as high as possible above your head. Using the end of the line is not necessary.

Edited by rambler on 05/05/2010 12:26:15 MDT.

"Almost forty years ago, I was an assistant instructor in an Army rappelling school overseas. My task was to teach each student about four basic knots ... "

I think it'd be informative to know what the four knots were.

Thanks,
Bill

Shoot, Frank. The photos and explanation help quite a lot. Much appreciated.

I'm going out this weekend, and I'll try it both ways, just for fun.

Tom B.

"I think it'd be informative to know what the four knots were."

You expect me to remember those knots after almost 40 years?

Hmmm. There was a simple square knot and simple half hitches. There was a Swiss seat. There was a Prusik knot. Maybe another one.

We, the training team, had to visually check each trainee's Swiss seat before he went over the edge of the 110-foot rappell cliff. We trained thousands of Infantry troops that summer, and we had only two minor injuries.

--B.G.--

I was guessing bowline, butterfly, prussik, and fisherman's knot. Also Swiss seat, but not counting that as a knot.

--MV

Not a fisherman's knot. We were Army Infantry, and we didn't go near the water.

Yes, probably bowline.

I do remember one frustrating officer, and we wanted to learn the Hangman's Noose to take care of him.

--B.G.--

You are correct that it is hard remembering details that far back. I just recalled that one other knot from then was bowline on a coil. You must have covered that one.

--MV

"You expect me to remember those knots after almost 40 years?"

Heh!

"Hmmm. There was a simple square knot and simple half hitches. There was a Swiss seat. There was a Prusik knot. Maybe another one."

I'd a guessed Figure Eight, Prusik, ring bend, overhand on a bight ...

"We, the training team, had to visually check each trainee's Swiss seat before he went over the edge of the 110-foot rappell cliff. We trained thousands of Infantry troops that summer, and we had only two minor injuries."

Sierra Hotel!

Thanks to Josh for his contribution to the community, but c'mon kids, learn a few knots.

If you can surf the Web or read a topo map, you should be able to conjure a clove hitch. What's that you say? You can do this with no hardware at all? Just a rope and a twig? Yes Virginia, you can! But you have to be a knotty girl!

Parts of our culture are disappearing faster than the tropical rain forests, and it scares me equally.

Here's your homework assignment kids:

Get a 6' hank of line (that is rope) and Google these knots:

Clove hitch

Bowline

Square knot-- learn how a double half hitch is related for extra credit

Taught-line hitch (for your tent lines BooBoo) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taut-line_hitch

Add a Prussic hitch for an A+ (you can use it to get Jimmy out of the well after Lassie comes barking). You will need two ropes.

Anybody living in earthquake zones should learn a little rope work. There aren't enough firefighters or even National Guard to come get you or your family, etc, etc, etc.

Total newbie here, maybe this is an effect of my lack of experience, but my whole issue with the PCT method is getting the bag high enough. I'm 5'4", and reaching over my head adds maybe 2-2.5 ft to that. I can tie a stick in the line, but I can't seem to reach high enough to really do any good---any suggestions on how to fix this?

My biggest problem with the stick wasn't getting the stick in the line--it was untying the stick the next morning. If this is easier to release, then it might be worth while. Am I stupid, or couldn't one leave the PVC permanently strung on the line, and not have to re-thread it every time? just have to make sure that when one clips the line into the carabiner that the PVC is below the carabiner.

I generally tie a slip knot in the middle of the rope instead of messing with a clove hitch. You can tie a quick slip knot by grabbing the rope, twisting 90 degrees and and then grabbing the main rope through the loop you initial grabbed. It sounds hard but it's really really easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NcOewm7qAA shows how.

My main issue is throwing the (&(*& rock though. As some other posters have mentioned I tend to go with an ursack as a result... or make one of my hiking partners throw the stupid thing.

Thanks for the vid and writeup Josh! I love the idea...so much I tried to find a piece of gear I already carry to replace the PVC pipe, and came up with an aluminum tent sleeve that I carry (for broken poles). Weighs almost nothing. Instead of tying around the sleeve like you do with the PVC, I'm just using a cord lock underneath the sleeve. I didn't think the cord lock would hold given the weight of the bear bag, but it seems to hold quite well. I've only tested this in my backyard with about 10lbs in my food bag, but it seems to hold quite securely (I'm using Dynaglide for my cord). It's quite easy to slide the sleeve up and down by just pressing the cord-lock, and can probably get it much higher up than when having to tie something. I'll post back once I try it in the wild though, so this is just theory at this point. :)

Anyway, thanks for the idea Josh!

Edited by klopfer on 06/17/2010 21:40:06 MDT.

I can't help but notice that the main issues with the standard clove hitch method is that 1) it is hard to tie and untie and 2) you have to pull all the rope through it, which is annoying and time-consuming.

For the first point, well, the clove hitch is pretty straightforward. If you can't learn how to tie it, then by all means use the piece of PVC. However it seems akin to going climbing without knowing how to tie a figure 8...

As for the second point, why not just use a slippery hitch? It's just as safe and you don't need to pull the entire slack through. Just tie your clove hitch as usual up until the last section where you have to tuck the rope underneath the final turn. Instead of all the slack, just pull a decent-size bight (loop) through, then tighten. The added bonus is that you can simply pull the bight out to remove the knot in the morning.

Also, the Ashley Book of Knots gives a number of methods to tie the clove hitch in-hand without having to pull any slack or bights. ABOK 1178 is probably the best. A slippery constrictor knot, ABOK 1250, is also another good option.

All this to say that anything else than a stick is a bit of overkill. YMMV

Edited by ahugenerd on 08/19/2010 11:01:07 MDT.

Keith - When I first started attempting to come up with a way to hang without a knot I made a few devices like what you have pictured. Different cord locks, etc. Under heavier hangs the grab seemed to hold sometimes, not others. I was always concerned that somewhere in the night the device would fail and the bag would slip, this seemed to happen easier if I wet the rope and at night the rope is likely to get damp from dew and of course it could rain.

One of the main issues with calling this a "knotless hang" is that it is no less of a knot then the clove hitch. What you have unwittingly created is-as far as I can tell-a marlinspike hitch.

So in essence you are trading one hitch for another-but I do like the idea of using the marlinspike hitch, but why not do it with a stick found on the ground? What is the need for the PVC?

Seems that if you drilled one of the holes large enough for a tent stake to go through, you could use the PVC as a tent stake pusher a la:

http://gossamergear.com/wp/tips/homemade-peg-pusher

If you wanted to be a pretentious jackass you could do it with Carbon fiber, to match your carbon fiber spork and hat brim. Would save you almost as much as a nickle weighs.

If you're feeding excess free end through the clove hitch then you are not tying it correctly. A clove hitch for a PCT (or any open ended tie off point like a small stick) is easier accomplished by forming the two opposing loops and passing the stick through them.

Harder to explain than demonstrate but you twist a loop holding the working end (the end going to the bear bag) and twisting the free end clockwise with your other hand forming a loop. Pinch the loop and make another clockwise twist (for a second loop) next to the first. Pass your stick thru the loops and pull the free end to tighten.

You're gadget is good but is just a marlin spike hitch on a captive pin. The marlin spike hitch is extremely easy to tie with one hand and is easier to untie than a clove hitch.

Hammock hangers will recognize the marlin spike hitch. Here's how to tie one;

http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-tie-marlin-spike-hitch-261834/view/