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Border Wall Threatens Fragile EcoPreserve
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Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"Border Wall Threatens Fragile EcoPreserve" on 05/26/2010 19:37:49 MDT Print View

How about that fragile eco-preserve huh? I will say one thing, as a resident of the border, there are far more LEGAL citizens trashing the desert on ATV's, illegal dumping and widespread public ignorance in viewing the desert environment of the borderland as one giant wasteland where anything goes. I run trails and access roads on BLM governed desert land weekly and find new illegal dump sights often. Transient border crossings from illegals on foot surely have less impact on the environment than the impact of our own border residents everyday. Sure, this doesn't justify or dismiss the environmental impact of the illegals or our own governments response to illegals, but it does put things into perspective, for me at least.

Carl Dickson
(CJDickson) - F
Re: Re: Hmmm is right... on 05/26/2010 20:42:18 MDT Print View

"As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined."

Still not true. Let's take a look at the numbers for 2005.

US 1,122,373

Europe 722,200

Australia 131,600$File/34120_2005-06.pdf

Canada 252,192

The totals right there are 1,105,992, leaving just 16,381 to be distributed among the rest of the countries in the world. I don't think so.

Michael Jay Friedman didn't do his homework nor provide any actual data. His Enron math doesn't add up.

Edited by CJDickson on 05/26/2010 20:43:06 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Hmmm is right... on 05/26/2010 20:49:31 MDT Print View

Ummmmmm Carl.....(in a whisper) the year is 2010 and we are almost mid way through that......

Please give more credible stats than 5 year old crap

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
Police States!!! on 05/26/2010 20:51:20 MDT Print View


Coming for you, I certainly didn't take that as an attack. And we've met in real life besides.

Perhaps I'm obsessed a bit with the issue, but I think it's dismissed too out of hand.

Consider what the police did in this video ( where they killed a family dog in front of a 7 year old to confiscate marijuana. Then charged the family with "endangering the child". That's rich.

What's even more rich is that there are 100-150 of these raids EVERY DAY (source: Cato Institute:, some of which do more harm than killing a family pet.

Please visit this site: to see a list of just a small sampling of the victims of the drug war. You might be surprised.

Then, there is taser-related harassment. The case where the police used a taser on an 82-year-old woman (, or the time the police tasered a teenager 19 times after he had fallen from a bridge and, paralyzed, was unable to comply with their demands. (Video: For an overview of the taser problem (and the 500 or so unarmed citizens who have been killed or paralyzed by them, visit here:

I don't use the term "police state" lightly. For *some* people, the US is a police state. For others, (you and me, most likely), it is not. The NYPD is currently embroiled in a controversy after covert recordings uncovered a quota for stop-and-frisk and arrests. What free and just society has a *quota* for arrests? (Source:

Even though we're not likely the target of these raids or police abuses, it is up to all of us to remain vigilant against the state's power, and I don't see how my need for the police to tell my neighbor to keep it down mitigates that need.

I have personally been harrassed by police officers several times, and it is not fun to be demeaned and dehumanized for doing nothing wrong, by people who are supposedly civil servants. Though what I've suffered is nothing in comparison to what others have, and the unequal treatment under the law in this country is appalling. I do feel the need to point that out, especially when some of the more idealistic, sheltered among us forget that these discussions aren't necessarily just platitudes for everyone. For some people, these issues are literally life and death.

**Caveat: the videos in my link are graphic and disturbing. Do not watch them if easily disturbed. I didn't watch them as I am. A wuss, that is, but yeah, been warned.***

Edited by Rezniem on 05/26/2010 21:05:27 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Police States!!! on 05/27/2010 08:22:02 MDT Print View

Thanks Nate, well written as I expected from you and I agree on most of your point. I am in a hurry and will check in later.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
drug war on 05/27/2010 11:59:18 MDT Print View

I agree the drug was is a terrible thing that has destroyed the lives of MILLIONS. It has turned this country into a police state as you say above. There is alot of money to be made in buliding prisons, hiring guards, prinson psychologists, body armor for swat teams, machine guns, political elections(candidates who are anti-drug war are seen as pro-drug and cannot be elected beause or the "moral majority"), news media coverage, and so on. So i don't see it ending anytime soon. Any1 who thought Obama would do so is just not living in reality, you don't get to that level by being against the profiteers. The only way it will end is by revolution, or agonizingly long years of legal measures-which i have little faith in. America is absolutely not a free country.

The prime issue in the drug war and what keeps it going other than the profiting, is the belief that someone has a right to assert their morality on others. Unfortunately this world is full of such dictatorial egotistical maniacs. If someone wants to ingest drugs thats their choice. If it harms their family thats an unfortunate result of it but is a reality. People who are going to beat their families are most likely going to engage in violent behavior anyway, they are already bad. It is your right to do whatever you want to yourself, including killing yourself, as long as you don't infringe on someone else's ability to do whatever they want without hurting someone else physically. Lots of people use drugs responsibly without harming anyone but themselves-and with some drugs such as cannabis, we are now learning the harm is nowhere near as bad as we thought it was. Don't blame the substance, accept responsibility for yoru actions. Accept some responsibility. Did prohibition of alcohol work? No, it created al capone and the alochol mob. What we have now is the mexian mob, but with billions instead of millions, rocket launchers and tanks instead of tommy guns and gangster cars. What the moral authoritativists have created is truly criminal. What keeps them going is lack of information. Many do not have access to the recent AP article on the drug war, or other FACTUAL information. People like Bill O'reilly continue to tell them its right to assert your moral compass on others, that more troops at the border will end the violence when use will never end. Fortunately for Bill, emotional appeal sways more minds than logical argument.

To demonstrate the absurdity of the drug war look at the facts. Alcohol kills thousands, prescription drugs kill thousands, ciggarettes kill thousands, all illegal drugs combined kill barely a fraction of these totals. Marijuana kills noone, its impossible to overdose on, and is being found to be more and more a treatment to many debilitating diseases everyday. Does big alcohol and big tobbacco have an interest in keeping drugs illegal? Bet the house on it. Is the DARE program ineffective? Bet the house on it. Does big pharma, the police state, politicians, alcohol and tobbacco have an interest in keeping marijuana iillegal? bet the house on it.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 05/27/2010 12:32:40 MDT.

K ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
amen to that on 05/27/2010 12:22:31 MDT Print View


Edited by Kat_P on 03/17/2015 23:41:30 MDT.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: amen to that on 05/30/2010 14:39:52 MDT Print View

Issac for president ;)

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Legalisation on 05/30/2010 15:06:12 MDT Print View

The major issue that troubles me about legalisation (which I support most days) is that instead of criminal involvement you will now get corporate involvement and some times it is tough to tell the difference :).

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Legalisation on 05/30/2010 20:56:48 MDT Print View

"instead of criminal involvement you will now get corporate involvement and some times it is tough to tell the difference :)."

That's because, increasingly, there is no difference.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Legalisation on 05/30/2010 21:10:35 MDT Print View

"That's because, increasingly, there is no difference."

I don't know, I think there's a big difference. Corporations/corporate heads ruin far more lives than criminals......

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Legalisation on 05/31/2010 14:13:36 MDT Print View

This is what I love about Chaff.

I wonder, if America had the determination to decriminalise all drugs, would those poor Afghani poppy farmers get their lively hood back? Would those coca farmers in Brazil have better lives, thus allowing them to stay put instead of emigrating to America?

Naaah, the sad fact is that the demand side of recreational drug use is pretty inflexible, and this is why the war on drugs is failing and will continue to fail. If you let Big Pharma into the game, it would just mean we'd get 'better' and more expensive patented pharmaceuticals to play with. Like, why endanger your lungs inhaling marijuana when we can give you pure THC to put in your cookies?

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: "Border Wall Threatens Fragile EcoPreserve" on 05/31/2010 14:24:30 MDT Print View

Just reading up a bit on the European Union, and thought these comments might be worth America thinking about (you know, the home of the free...):

RE Expanding the borders "European countries were well aware of the potential security problems, but "it is a deliberate choice of the European Union to focus more on the free movement of persons than on security aspects."

"We are going to lose a very effective instrument to fight illegal immigration," he said.

However, he indicated clearly that he felt they were up to the challenge. The loss of one instrument has been compensated in large part by increased cooperation between countries and the addition of numerous new tools for increased security.

Throughout the world there is now widespread use of highly reliable biometric identity instruments. Most passports and visas and individual country identification cards carry RFID chips. Even if people manage to get into the European Union illegally now, they will find it increasingly difficult to obtain work, either legal or illegal.

Not only are countries cracking down on illegal immigrants, they also are increasing pressure on businesses that hire illegal workers."

And that is your best solution in dealing with illegals IMHO.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Legalisation on 05/31/2010 19:51:33 MDT Print View

"Corporations/corporate heads ruin far more lives than criminals......"

Good point.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: drug war on 06/01/2010 08:15:20 MDT Print View


You should look up what externalities are before you decide that the war on drugs is all about forcing "morality on others." There is so much more to it than that.

We control the availability of all kinds of drugs. Are you claiming that we should just legalize everything? How about the prescription drugs you mentioned?

By the way, the US is not a police state.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Michael on 06/01/2010 14:46:49 MDT Print View

You can control the availability of drugs through regulation, right now there is no control, anyone can buy them including children. At least you have to show your id go buy alcohol, there is no id check on illegal drugs. Prescription drugs are already on the street, you can get any prescription drug you want without a presciption.

The US is heading towards a police state, it is definately not heading away from becoming one.


Edited by isaac.mouser on 06/01/2010 14:56:04 MDT.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: drug war on 06/01/2010 14:51:33 MDT Print View

"We control the availability of all kinds of drugs. Are you claiming that we should just legalize everything? How about the prescription drugs you mentioned?"

I would say yes to decriminalising personal drug use. Across the board. Even in sports for performance purposes. Folks are gonna use no matter what, so the law is an a$$. As long as some drugs are illegal there will always be a criminal element involved in the supply of those drugs. The law is not stopping users, it's merely enabling suppliers.

Hey it's not just illegitimate use of prescription drugs that kills folks. the medical community does a fantastic job of 'legitimately' giving the wrong drug, wrong dose, or wrong combo. This doesn't mean we should outlaw legitimate prescribing any more than we should outlaw non-medical drug use just because *some* people will go overboard with them.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Michael on 06/01/2010 14:58:53 MDT Print View

I would argue that there is control through making them illegal. Outside of legalizing pot, there are a lot more negatives than positives as far as I can tell when discussing legalizing hardcore drugs.

You may easily dimiss the repurcussions on other family members from somebody's drug use, but they are real and must be dealt with.

You must live around with a lot more drug dealers if you think children can buy them so easily. Thankfully, where I live, while they are around, kids aren't buying/selling drugs.

RE: police state:
I'll agree we aren't headed in the opposite direction.

I guess this has drifted a bit from the border wall.

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Michael on 06/01/2010 15:05:24 MDT Print View

"You may easily dimiss the repurcussions on other family members from somebody's drug use, but they are real and must be dealt with."

So should we ban tv's because people neglect their children and watch tv instead? How about Fast Food, that can makes people fat and lazy because they don't play with their kids.

This kind of logic is no logic that should ever be used to create law.

Alcohol is one of the most devastating drugs in regards to family abuse, and it is completely legal. How do you explain that? Do you want to go back to prohibition?

I don't live around alot of drug dealers, but you are naive to think it doesn't exist where you are, its everywhere. Just like all humans have greed, lust, etc, substance abuse is part of the human condition and is not geographic in nature.

How is there control through making them illegal? The control in that case is in the hands of the drug dealers. The guys at the border only catch a small fraction of the total drugs being moved around. Right now alcohol/tobbacco is actually controlled for the most part. One thing you may have not considered is death because of using illegal drugs. If regulated the substance will be pure, however, one can buy street pot nowadays and have it laced with something terrible possibly causing death.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 06/01/2010 15:09:40 MDT.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: drug war on 06/01/2010 15:07:06 MDT Print View


There is a very good reason to keep PED out of sports. If you want to play and compete without screwing up your body, you should be afforded the right to do so, imo. It also has a trickle down effect in schools.

Folks are going to do all kinds of things that are bad. By your arguement you should throw out all laws. [ Bad example: Pedophiles are going to molest kids, should we let them? Of course not]. Legalizing and allowing people to shoot up on heroine screws up them, but also likely their spouses and possibly their kids. A lot of these drugs are illegal or controlled for very legit reasons. As long as you expect the goverment to take care of kids in bad situations (drug abusing parents that neglect their kids), people driving under the influence of drugs, people's lack of productivity while high, etc, we will have externalities that are a problem for the rest of us.

Wide scale legalization is not the answer.