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Border Wall Threatens Fragile EcoPreserve
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Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
Border Wall Threatens Fragile EcoPreserve on 04/26/2010 14:45:22 MDT Print View

Just ran across this article detailing how construction on a new portion of the Border wall that will bisect the Lennox Foundation's Southmost Preserve in Texas. The Southmost Preserve is one of the last habitats of unadulterated sabal palm that once gave the Rio Grande its name. It's also home to several endangered species, including the oceolot and jaguarundi, both of whom will be affected by the wall, which will have no wildlife crossings.

Even more upsetting is that the walled off lands were purchased for $2.6 million in 1999, but DHS is only compensating the foundation for the walled off portion (a 60 foot wide, 6000-foot long strip) at around $100,000. Given that

Frank Steele
(knarfster) - F

Locale: Arizona
Wall threatens the environment? on 05/19/2010 10:22:59 MDT Print View

How about how much the ILLEGAL Aliens affect the environment?

Illegal Immigration Is Trashing Southern Border

Trash On The Border

Trash Illegals leave behind

Patrick Topel
(patricktt2020) - M

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Illegal aliens trashing the enviroment on 05/19/2010 11:01:18 MDT Print View

"Illegal aliens threaten entire nation!" how about that for a headline? I agree with you Frank,and in my opinion, ILLEGAL immigration is an outrage. For those of you who believe in extremist enviromentalist viewpoints,there are others who believe that Borders,Language and Culture are also extremely important. this arguement can go on and on,and we all have our opinions,thank you Nate for opening up this particular thread.perhaps in the future,for you, the sierra club website might be a more appropriate place to discuss issues of a political nature.

Edited by patricktt2020 on 05/19/2010 11:20:43 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Illegal aliens trashing the enviroment on 05/19/2010 11:04:32 MDT Print View

Patrick, this is CHAFF. Anything goes. If you don't like it, don't read chaff.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Wall threatens the environment? on 05/19/2010 11:10:15 MDT Print View

How about how much the ILLEGAL Aliens affect the environment?

Frank, I'd be careful what you point to. Americans abroad have a dismal track record and the destruction is far worse than what the "undesirables" do to the States:

http://civiliancontractors.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/america-plans-to-withdraw-its-troops-but-leave-behind-a-toxic-mess/

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Sakurai-Kunitoshi/2946

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0119-02.htm

http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Bombs-Chemicals-US-Leftovers.htm

Edited by butuki on 05/19/2010 11:13:15 MDT.

Dont Wantto
(longhiker) - F
of all the problems on 05/19/2010 11:41:49 MDT Print View

yeah.. sure.. illegals are an environmental headache.

How easy would it be to film such trash from the 300 million legal citizens of this country?

Trash - ever been to any town in this country?

Water pollution - been anywhere in this country? Been to suburbia with the disgusting lawns and pesticides?

Air pollution - been anywhere at all?

Oceans -- ever filled up your 4L-engine car with gas? Why did you do that to the Gulf of Mexico? Why don't you go over to Mexico now and help clean up the bay with their name on it??

Mining.. deforestation..

To save the environment, I say we deport all suburbanites.

Let the illegals in. Suburbanites with lawns -- OUT!

(In all seriousness, I don't condone anything illegal, much less illegal immigration. I just don't like ridiculous associations stemming from blind rage. Seriously, if you want to whine about illegals, make it about something that illegals ARE which other people are NOT.

For example, this works: Illegals are here illegally.

this doesn't: Illegals commit crimes (at the same rate as other people). Illegals wear pants. Illegals consume food. Illegals leave trash lying around.

)

cary bertoncini
(cbert) - F

Locale: N. California
Tribes on 05/19/2010 11:55:48 MDT Print View

"My tribe is always right. Other tribes are evil and the source of all my tribe's suffering."

"We've met the enemy, and he is us." Pogo, I think, had it right. And, "There is nothing to fear but fear itself" also seems relevant.

I think until we can each look in the mirror and deal with the enemy we see, we'll keep projecting our shadows onto some "other." Othering is psychological scapegoating. It's what created the Salem witch trials and the madness of McCarthyism. We seem to be approaching similar madness.

Large, ostensibly "American" corporations are draining the life out of this country far faster than any illegal workers. Speeders are our greatest daily threat to life and limb, not terrorists. Both the leaders of these corporations and the speeders I refer to are part of "us," this current tribe, but it's apparently more psychologically appealing (and I suppose less threatening) to view the enemy outside than the enemy among us, within us.

Burn the witches. Round up the Jews. Blacklist the sympathizers. Lock up the Japanese.

Maybe we aren't really evolving. But I still think we can.

I'll leave off with a few quotes from one of my favorite human beings who I never was fortunate enough (or old enough) to meet:

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." - "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." - "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

Patrick Topel
(patricktt2020) - M

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Illegal aliens trashing the enviroment on 05/19/2010 11:59:23 MDT Print View

An ILLEGAL aliens version of" Leave No Trace" camping;one estimate-each illegal alien leaves 8 pounds of trash per day. one estimate-4 to 16 TONS of trash left in the Arizona border region per day.one estimate-1400 to 5800 TONS of trash per year. US BLM estimates 24 MILLION POUNDS dumped along the Arizona border through 2007,and yet the Sierra Club refuses to take a stand against ILLEGAL immigration.How many American citizens need to be murdered along our nations southern border before something is done?

Dont Wantto
(longhiker) - F
is trash murdering people? on 05/19/2010 12:29:02 MDT Print View

Is that what you are saying?

I'm sorry but it is difficult to follow your post.. did the 8 pounds of trash (according to "one" estimate -- is that the department of out-of-my-... ?) murder millions of Americans living at the border?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
8lb. of trash on 05/19/2010 12:41:48 MDT Print View

Maybe we could help the problem by converting them to Ultralight Illegal Aliens. They could increase their miles per day and if they take their garbage base weight from 8 lbs down to .5 lbs a day then over 90% of the problem goes away. I should run for Congress.

Patrick Topel
(patricktt2020) - M

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
does trash murder people? on 05/19/2010 12:43:15 MDT Print View

I apologize for my previously difficult to understand posting. The trash along the southern border is presumably only murdering wildlife and not human beings(except perhaps indirectly).The recent shooting (along our nations southern border) of a law enforcement officer and the murder of an American citizen apparently by illegal aliens is a completely different subject.From Frank Steele's posting please access the "trash on the border "link for various sources of statistics on this subject,or"dont wantto"feel free to keep your head in the sand or wherever else you'd like, if that's what keeps you oblivious.Or wait,here's another idea,just do a couple more BONG hits to obliviate yourself.

Edited by patricktt2020 on 05/19/2010 13:07:52 MDT.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: 8lb. of trash on 05/19/2010 16:22:47 MDT Print View

Maybe we could help the problem by converting them to Ultralight Illegal Aliens.

Phew! This is such a heavy topic that it is (at least for me) difficult to be objective about this. Thanks for lightening it up, Greg!

Maybe one day we can even get those Illegal Untouchables to go SUL! Though I think they're already covering the lightweight shoes category. Just wait until they go Cuben! Maybe then they'll aim for Canada and do a Yo-Yo!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: 8lb. of trash on 05/19/2010 16:43:11 MDT Print View

8 pounds a day? Really?

Who carries 8 POUNDS of trash a day?
I can't generate 8 pounds of trash in 12 days of backpacking.

Come on, this is BPL, all of us have scales...

A wrapper weighs grams.
A soda bottle/can weighs grams.
An empty tin can weighs barely an ounce...

So that's what, 32 cans of soup to generate -at best- 2 pounds of trash? Throw in maybe 45 candy bar wrappers, an 18 pack worth of soda cans or water bottles, and maybe we're talking 4 pounds of trash?


Think about it people.
Either those are some VERY VERY VERY hungry folk pulling wagons of provisions or someone's numbers are full of $hit.




This has got to be the most absurd and pathetic anti-illegal immigrant angle I've heard yet.

And for those whose hearts truly ache over trash and pollution, look no further than your fellow Americans for the biggest culprits.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: 8lb. of trash on 05/19/2010 17:23:38 MDT Print View

"Maybe one day we can even get those Illegal Untouchables to go SUL!"

Hey! My illegal untouchables ain't SUL! And what I do in the privacy of my own bathro....er.....home is none of your business!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Forum name change on 05/19/2010 17:24:35 MDT Print View

I propose we change this forum name from Chaff to Venting. :))

Frank Steele
(knarfster) - F

Locale: Arizona
Re: Re: Re: 8lb. of trash on 05/19/2010 17:45:23 MDT Print View

"This has got to be the most absurd and pathetic anti-illegal immigrant angle I've heard yet."

I have seen the trash and the damage to the desert with my own two eyes. I don't give a rats ass what the weight of the trash is, its the volume and the area it is spread over that can't be disputed.

"And for those whose hearts truly ache over trash and pollution, look no further than your fellow Americans for the biggest culprits."

Good point, but I do my part to pollute less and I at least pay Income Taxes (normally five figures, but once six!) that may or may not be used to someday clean up this mess.

Edited by knarfster on 05/19/2010 23:47:20 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: 8lb. of trash on 05/19/2010 17:45:53 MDT Print View

"And what I do in the privacy of my own bathro....er.....home is none of your business!"

Now Doug. Don't be baiting the hyenas. You know where that got you last time. ;}

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
trash on 05/19/2010 18:08:25 MDT Print View

the us is not a trash country, there are still plenty of nice places. Ever been to the philipines? Yea i thought so. Its the same everywhere, cities are trashy, middle of nowhere places are not.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 05/19/2010 18:09:36 MDT.

Dont Wantto
(longhiker) - F
income taxes and illegals on 05/22/2010 15:50:32 MDT Print View

Frank,

Do learn about the income taxes illegals have been paying for years. The IRS has been issuing taxpayer identification numbers for people without SSNs and this has become a channel for illegals to pay all kinds of taxes including income taxes.

In particular, the contribution of illegals to keeping social security afloat (a little longer than otherwise) is often cited. They pay in but don't get anything back.

Why do they do all this? People say it's some rumors about paying your taxes helping you get citizenship / amnesty someday but frankly, it beats me.

Anyway, if you don't like illegals, just keep your arguments to honest ones. I'm sure it's pretty easy.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: income taxes and illegals on 05/22/2010 16:05:24 MDT Print View

"Why do they do all this? People say it's some rumors about paying your taxes helping you get citizenship / amnesty someday but frankly, it beats me."

SS/Medicare taxes are not optional. They come off the top of every paycheck. And the employer is required to match. The result is about 15%, no ifs, ands, or buts. And then there is Workmans Comp.

Finally there are State and Federal taxes, which you can fiddle with a little bit.