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Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
Emergency book on 03/09/2010 12:43:58 MST Print View

hey everybody, while i was in the philipnes a friend gave me a tiny little book (6inch by 6inch estimated). This little book was about a 100 pages and UL. Inside was what to do with broken spines, fractured/broken limbs, unconcious people, gushing wounds, etc. I have since lost it and would like to know if anyone knows where to get a backcountry emergency book that is of similar size. thanks!

drowning in spam
(leaftye) - F

Locale: SoCal
Re: Emergency book on 03/09/2010 13:32:14 MST Print View

I'm not sure if this is the miniature version, but this is what I carry:

SAS Survival Guide
8 ounces

It has a little bit of everything, including first aid stuff.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Emergency book on 03/09/2010 13:41:53 MST Print View

You _carry_ the book?

That doesn't seem like the right way to go. I think you'd want to take some training, learn or memorize the book, and then leave it at home.

"Oh, Fred, you've fallen and your femoral artery is hemorrhaging. Wait a minute while I dig my book out. Let's see, was that part in Chapter 4 or Chapter 5? Wait a minute while I find that."

Not.

--B.G.--

drowning in spam
(leaftye) - F

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: Re: Emergency book on 03/09/2010 13:47:57 MST Print View

Me? I do carry it on short training trips. Lots of little things I like to try in camp. I'm certainly not going to postpone a trip until I've memorized everything in a book.

Alex Gilman
(Vertigo) - F

Locale: Washington
Re: Re: Re: Emergency book on 03/09/2010 13:52:00 MST Print View

Hey Bob? When you make posts a lot of times they have valuable information but they're wrapped in a tortilla of condescension...

Let's admit that most of us are not wilderness survival experts and a lot of us are here to learn.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Emergency book on 03/09/2010 14:17:03 MST Print View

Alex, OK, and your point is ...?

That's the reason why you go through advanced wilderness first aid class and emergency management class. You have to learn that stuff. Carrying along a book, much less an 8-ounce book, just doesn't make much sense to me.

--B.G.--

Ike Mouser
(isaac.mouser) - F
why on 03/09/2010 14:20:36 MST Print View

I've been through emergency first aid training before, but in the heat of the situation it's good to have an aid, and besides you cannot remember everything.

ACtually bob the book that i had was easily indexable by body section, could find something in an instant if need be. And yes your posts are extremely condescending.

Edited by isaac.mouser on 03/09/2010 14:22:09 MST.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Why Not? on 03/09/2010 14:25:04 MST Print View

I don't do it, but I can see how carrying some UL version of an emergency guide can be useful.

Most of us can (or maybe should) sign up for a course -- but given that we are careful hikers most of the time -- true emergencies can be very few and very far between. In the heat of the moment, we may not remember exactly what to do. Also, having a reference source to quickly read up on can actually help us focus -- and calm us down.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Why Not? on 03/09/2010 14:35:07 MST Print View

Too many first aid classes simply focus on what to do before you call 911. The more advanced classes go into a lot more depth and practice sessions. Then, the "final exam" is conducted. The mock victim is outdoors in some theoretical injury situation, and somebody is up on the roof of the building with a garden hose, simulating cold rainfall on the victim. Then the testee is sent out to tend to the victim, but there would be an interesting set of priorities to get established in the first few seconds.

There aren't too many books that teach that. You have to just know it.
--B.G.--

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Emergency book on 03/09/2010 14:35:09 MST Print View

.

Edited by annapurna on 05/02/2010 06:04:01 MDT.

Corey Miller
(coreyfmiller) - F

Locale: Eastern Canada
SAS Survival Guide on 03/09/2010 14:35:09 MST Print View

I carry one myself, have the full blown SAS survival guide at the office and the miniature one in my pack for Solo trips. Once in a while I will take it, Gives me something to flip through.. I've got it pretty much memorized but its a good time to brush up on some of it.

And Bob... for those of us who have never paid to take these "advanced" courses.. What does it hurt to take 8 ounces out into the wild and actually get some real world knowledge of things? I think thats called hands on learning?

bj bretzke
(lilorphanbilly) - F

Locale: Montana, MT (Stealth Mode)
emergency book on 03/09/2010 14:37:55 MST Print View

I have been training in first-aid since Boy Scouts in the '80s. After that I decided to become a Cav Scout for a few years so I am probably the most trained at any given time in our group. I stay red cross certified in both CPR and First-Aid, Bob is right. Call 911 is the main message.

The scenario I see is that I am the one incapacitated and nobody knows what to do. I wouldn't be embarrassed to say that little Joey Boy Scout saved a life by looking it up in a book. Just my way of thinkin'.
BJ

Edited by lilorphanbilly on 03/09/2010 14:41:58 MST.

Alex Gilman
(Vertigo) - F

Locale: Washington
Training and Repetition on 03/09/2010 14:43:19 MST Print View

Bob, I'm a Rescue Diver, this puts me in a unique position of saying "Yes some reference material is better than NOTHING" and being right. While I agree with your point that training and drilling is good. There are simply too many things to remember. That's why I carry with me such things as RDP Tables, NITROX conversion etc.

I gave you a chance to play it off and redeem yourself but you just buried yourself deeper in a hole. In my experience guys like you who "know it all" because they did a class get others killed.

In fact in November of 08 I "rescued" your type while on my recreational dive. He knew it all because he drilled it in Advanced SCUBA class. Except he went too deep and got in to trouble held his breath on an emergency ascent and embolized. I found him 20 minutes later in the Puget Sound at 98ft with 10 feet vis. By the time the medics got a pulse on him it was 30 minutes AFTER I had already brought him up. The good news is a week later they decided to pull the plug on him and his body did some good.

The moral of the story Bob I hope you're not a drinker or a smoker so that eventually you will be able to do some good for others.

Edited by Vertigo on 03/09/2010 14:44:13 MST.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
classes on 03/09/2010 14:48:53 MST Print View

Yes, I agree, some of the classes have gotten enormously expensive. Some now cost x12 to x20 what I had to pay the first time I took them. One way around that is that some organizations and institutions will pay for your class fee in return for you being a member or a leader. In some cases, they subsidize your fee without paying all of it.

I went through ordinary first aid classes paid for by an employer, since many companies are required by OSHA standards to have so many first aid trained employees on staff. Then what you do is to get the super-advanced class scheduled in place of the simple class that your employer thought it was paying for. Let's just say that it has been done that way.

For some companies, like a logging company, they really want to hire people with serious first aid training, so it is a big plus if you were trying to get hired.

At the end of an employment interview, the interviewer always asks if there is anything else that I want to add. I've mentioned that I had such and such first aid training, and that was valued by previous employers. That never seems to hurt the interview process. They don't seem to care if I have first aid books on my bookcase at home.

--B.G.--

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Training and Repetition on 03/09/2010 14:51:53 MST Print View

Alex, I can't even figure out how you could use an 8-ounce first aid book on a SCUBA dive.

--B.G.--

Alex Gilman
(Vertigo) - F

Locale: Washington
Re: Re: Training and Repetition on 03/09/2010 14:53:10 MST Print View

I put in my BC pocket next to the 40lbs of lead.

bj bretzke
(lilorphanbilly) - F

Locale: Montana, MT (Stealth Mode)
training and repetition on 03/09/2010 14:54:03 MST Print View

Everybody is assuming that they won't go into shock themselves from the trauma inflicted on the patient. Not all of us are cut out for high stress situations and if a book helps them focus on something besides the trauma that's good. No amount of working with mock victims can prepare a person for the real thing.
BJ

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: emergency book on 03/09/2010 15:01:59 MST Print View

This:

"The scenario I see is that I am the one incapacitated and nobody knows what to do. I wouldn't be embarrassed to say that little Joey Boy Scout saved a life by looking it up in a book. Just my way of thinkin'.

BJ"

When I can have my GPS on my roll-up ebook (pretty please?) I'll be toting a backcountry reference and reading library that will certainly include both simple first aid and a more detailed medical reference. As it is I carry a tiny first aid book because the downward slope on my retention curve between classes is too darn steep. There's a reason the ARC CPR certificate is only one year.

Cheers,

Rick

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: classes on 03/09/2010 15:02:46 MST Print View

Some of the Red Cross classes are OK, and some are surely not, unless you are purely a city-dweller with emergency services available. For most of us who backpack, the "mountain medicine" classes are much better.

I took a basic Red Cross first aid class one time, and it was bad. The instructor did not understand hypothermia or altitude illness or any of those "mountain" subjects and was unprepared to teach those topics. So, it is good to get into the correct level of class that really works for you. As a general rule, the Sierra Club has links to those kinds of "mountain" first aid classes.

About 25 years ago, the Sierra Club had some ugly accidents on sponsored trips, and there were lawsuits. In order for the Sierra Club to be able to continue its operations and its liability insurance, it had to increase its leader training significantly. So, for the last 20 years or so, the accident rate is much lower and the accident management is much better.
--B.G.--

bj bretzke
(lilorphanbilly) - F

Locale: Montana, MT (Stealth Mode)
Mountain Medicine? on 03/09/2010 15:14:46 MST Print View

The threadhttp://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/haiti-survivor-iphone/

I might have posted that before.....

I can't see a book that could be much lighter and this kind of puts us back on track with the OP. There are many fine trail first aid guides you just need to shop around. The military is always a good starting point.

Rick, Good point. Not only is retention difficult, there are so many variables (age, condition, distance to help, weather....) That and real First Responders take more than Billy Bob's Backcountry Survival Course. It takes years of training.
BJ

Edited by lilorphanbilly on 03/09/2010 15:26:03 MST.