Caldera Keg GVP?
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Johnny Gish
(jtgish) - F

Locale: Coppell, Texas
Caldera Keg GVP? on 03/02/2010 23:45:47 MST Print View

can you use a heineken can with the GVP caldera system instead of a Fosters? Do you just adjust the band?

Christopher Graf
(cgraf) - M

Locale: So Cal
Caldera Keg GVP? on 03/03/2010 00:01:20 MST Print View

I believe the Heineken can/keg is larger in diameter than the Fosters can/keg and therefore doubt if it will work. The silicone beer bands place along the crimp may lift the Heineken can/keg higher allowing it to fit but most likely would decrease fuel efficiency.
Having used this system for a while now I like the fact the caldera cone fits flushly inside the fosters can - it's a light, compact, efficient system.

Johnny Gish
(jtgish) - F

Locale: Coppell, Texas
durability on 03/03/2010 00:17:37 MST Print View

thanks chris,
but im worried about durability for a AT thru hike.
thats why im looking to cut my own Heiny can.

Rand Lindsly
(randlindsly) - MLife

Locale: Yosemite
Re: durability on 03/03/2010 01:07:06 MST Print View

The GVP comes with a caddy....and the Fosters can is safe inside. However, if you would prefer not to use the caddy, we do offer a Caldera Keg-H made out of a Hiney can.....and you can get a Gram Cracker for it instead of the alcohol stove if that's the reason you were leaning toward the GVP.

email me through traildesigns.com if I can help out here.

Rand

Christopher Graf
(cgraf) - M

Locale: So Cal
Re: durability on 03/03/2010 01:23:46 MST Print View

GVP durability....I've not used the caddy (it's almost the same weight as the entire stove graham cracker/keg/cone) and have not had an issue. One reason for this I believe is the cone rolled and inserted into the fosters can/keg adds some rigidity/structure. I simply use the small stuff sack which accompanies the system and carried at the very top inside the pack.
I've used this system extensively for the past year with no signs of wear/damage.

Christopher

Johnny Gish
(jtgish) - F

Locale: Coppell, Texas
fosters volume on 03/03/2010 01:36:29 MST Print View

research shows that volume for the fosters can is 25.9oz
im guessing 16-20 oz is usable, 20oz is max for me, is this a usable amount with esbit?
Boil times with 16 oz of water at 50-60 degrees?

Edited by jtgish on 03/03/2010 01:38:48 MST.

Christopher Graf
(cgraf) - M

Locale: So Cal
fosters volume on 03/03/2010 02:04:15 MST Print View

I'd say that 20oz is doable with esbit but two tablets side by side in the graham cracker would be required to get a good boil.
I normally only heat 12oz of water for a MH ProPak Feeze Dried meal for dinner & coffee in the morning so max volume is never an issue.
Boil times: to be honest I couldn't tell you as I normally do other camp chores while water is heating/boiling.

Cheers,
Christopher

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: fosters volume on 03/03/2010 12:24:12 MST Print View

.

Edited by annapurna on 05/02/2010 06:06:21 MDT.

Joe L
(heyyou) - MLife

Locale: Cutting brush off of the Arizona Tr
Anna on 03/06/2010 15:33:11 MST Print View

Anna,
I've bought those in the past. One is now leaking at the crimp. I don't know if that is wear from packing it without the caddy, or if heat weakened the thin metal, or both.

I too would prefer an H can over a Fosters can.

Edited by heyyou on 03/06/2010 15:34:33 MST.

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Calder Fosters versus Heineken on 03/06/2010 15:40:27 MST Print View

Joe,
I work-hardened my Fosters by carrying in caddy-less for about 300 miles. It then developed pinholes at the support rib.

While others have done well with the Fosters, I suspect that I just pack to tight, and each step slightly squeezes the can.

For "loose packers" this might not be an issue.

I recommend contacting Rand at TD. They are very accommodating and supportive.

I just got my Keg-H and I like it a Lot! Shorter, and very solid. For me it will pack better, and I'm sure, last longer.

Edited by greg23 on 03/06/2010 15:42:01 MST.

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Anna on 03/06/2010 15:53:50 MST Print View

I haven't had a problem with my fosters can, but I did with the original cone I recieved and they sent me a new one for free with the reinforced titanium slide and now every thing works great no problems.They are really great to deal with.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
How much water can you boil relatively efficiently with the H keg setup on 03/07/2010 14:23:52 MST Print View

Since only about half of the water in the H can can be lowered into the Caldera Cone, about how much water can be boiled relatively efficiently? Just wondering how long it would take to prepare enough water for meal + hot drink for 2, and whether the F can would be better for two (leaned toward the H can for the durability and lower packing volume).

Mark Hurd
(markhurd) - M

Locale: South Texas
Re: How much water can you boil relatively efficiently with the H keg setup on 03/07/2010 16:17:59 MST Print View

I would be interested in the boil time/efficiency of the H-can system, too I've been using the F version for several years without a caddy and no leaks yet, but I'm considering the sturdier appearing H version for a change.

- Mark

Edited by markhurd on 03/07/2010 19:09:46 MST.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Rand - what do you think? on 03/07/2010 17:17:36 MST Print View

Rand if you are still out there, love to hear your thoughts. You've always been super informative and I have tremendous respect for your products and excellent customer relations.

Rand Lindsly
(randlindsly) - MLife

Locale: Yosemite
Re: How much water can you boil relatively efficiently with the H keg setup on 03/08/2010 01:04:05 MST Print View

All:

Weighing in here since I was called out! :-)

First, going back to first principles, what makes the Caldera Cone concept powerful isn't that it does anything special with alcohol or the stove.....that's a baked in limitation that has been pounded on for decades (if not a century) now. Not saying someone won't figure something out to make a leap forward in alcohol stoves, but it's increasingly hard to imagine. Where the Caldera made a step forward was to take that fairly well understood (and limited) heat source, and to make better use of it by holding the heat close to the pot as it escaped, and at the same time isolate the pot and the stove from the colder environment.....on a more stable platform.

Second, there has been a movement afoot from the marketplace to push all this the gear down inside the pot. Doing this (Fissure aside) has consequently pushed the cone to shorter and shorter heights (ala. ULC/Keg), and pushed more and more of the pot, and consequently the water up out of the heat zone into the colder environment.

So, how does all this apply to the Keg-F and the Keg-H? For all intents and purposes, assume they are the same system with respect to material properties, fuel, stove, wall thicknesses, etc. Where they differ is that the Keg-F holds just about 2 cups of water inside the cone where all the action is.....and the Keg-H holds about 1.5 cups. That extra 1/2 cup of water in the Keg-H is not getting directly heated. It is touching the can that is exposed to the environment up outside the cone, not taking advantage of the inherent strength of the Caldera system....but the cone sure does fit in the can! So, the performance differences between the two systems will be as a result of this 1/2 cup not being inside the cone.

As to other system comparisons, the Keg-H can is heavier plus requires the beer-band to support it on the cone, while the Keg-F can is lighter, doesn't need the band, and heats all the water at once (but is flimsier and has a Caddy for protection if needed). There are other bag and caddy and cozy frills, but that's the big delta.

And to throw one final confusion into the mix, the Keg-GVP cone fits completely down inside the lighter Keg-F can but STILL heats the same ~2 cups of water inside the cone....the difference here is that we were able to make that cone shorter because it is an "esbit only" solution and we don't need the offset distance that an alcohol stove requires....so....shorter cone....fits in the pot....and still heats the typical 2 cup volume. (oh...and Gram Cracker=3gm....12-10 stove=16gm)

As to EJ's other question.....honestly a single Fosters/Heineken can is probably not the optimum choice for 2 people if you want to cook everything in one boil. The cans are only 25oz/750ml in size and what you are asking for is more than that. Also, as I noted, about half of the water would be above the cone and in the environment. Now, one concept to consider is, that since the pot/cone/stove system is so light (actually those 3 are lighter than my Suunto watch!) the concept of carrying two is not out of the question!! (blatant capitalistic plug :-)


Hope that helps further the conversation.....let me know!

Rand :-)

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: H vs F Boil Times on 03/08/2010 13:30:49 MST Print View

I don't have a Keg GVP, but I do have a Keg-H and a Keg-F. Testing these to, side by side, yielded interesting results.

Air Temp in the garage was 50°F.
No breezes in the garage.
Water temperature was close to 33°F.
Water in my garage boils at 197°F
Fuel was Sunnyside Denatured Alcohol (~90% ethanol)

Once a boil was reached, the pot and cone were lifted, the stove was snuffed, and then immediately weighed.

I believe fuel weights are accurate to 0.2 grams, even with delays after fueling, weighing, lighting, snuffing etc.

The actual boil times are with 5 seconds - Light #1, Light #2, set #2 Cone, set #1 Cone, start the timer.

I used Reflectix cozys as lids. Lids make a Huge difference. If you are not using one, you should be.

Keg Times

The first round was for 2 cups of water:

The Heine took 11:35 for a rolling boil
The Fosters took 11:10 for a rolling boil

The Heine used 11.6 grams of alcohol.
The Fosters used 12.2 grams of alcohol

The second round was for 3 cups of water:

The Heine took 15:00 to boil
The Fosters took 13:20 to boil

The Heine used 16.8 grams of alcohol
The Fosters used 17.3 grams of alcohol.

In the photo below, note the level of the water -

Keg Water Levels

It was a dicey deal lifting the pots, and the only thing between your fingers and boiling water is some very thin very conductive aluminum.

The photo below shows another use of a cozy -

CozyTop

This improves efficiency, but has a tendency to degrade the edge of the cozy. I don't mind, as cozys are easy and cheap to make.

My conclusion is that any differences in efficiency are small, and easily overwhelmed by wind and subtle variations in stove height/pot height.

Note that in this particular combination of components the Fosters boiled faster, but used more fuel. Perhaps my Fosters band has slipped, lowering the pot, superheating the alcohol, etc., etc.

In this test, the additional cup of water (50% more) was above/outside of the cone, yet the boil required less than a 50% increase in fuel.

Last, the risk of burns when dealing with 3 cups of hot water, in a "24 oz." can, is very real.

Edited by greg23 on 03/08/2010 16:54:47 MST.

Mark Hurd
(markhurd) - M

Locale: South Texas
Keg Comparison results and Info on 03/08/2010 19:07:38 MST Print View

Rand and Greg,

Thank you! A great synopsis of the design and trade offs, followed by some real world data. I realize the sample was small, but this was just the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks. I continue to be a big fan of TrailDesigns and the Caldera Cone system.

-Mark

Rand Lindsly
(randlindsly) - MLife

Locale: Yosemite
Re: Re: H vs F Boil Times on 03/08/2010 23:01:06 MST Print View

Greg:

Wicked good buddy! Great writeup!

WRT the band location.....looks like the ridge on the formed cans is about 3 1/8" up from the bottom and we call for 3 1/4 with the beer band documentation....so anywhere in there would likely be good. One other note that might make some minor difference is that with the Fosters can as shipped, we do reform the bottom mostly to provide more room for the cone. Not sure if that would have any performance effect, just making a note.

Rand :-)

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: H vs F Boil Times on 03/09/2010 07:07:53 MST Print View

Aha Moment... "...we do reform the bottom..."

So on "cut my own cans" I may need to move the band down just a bit...

Thanks. I never noticed.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: H vs F Boil Times on 03/14/2010 22:18:09 MDT Print View

Rand, is there an optional caddy that holds the entire Keg-H system? What is the name of that caddy to order it at AGG?

Thanks!