Goose Down, Humane?
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 George Matthews (gmatthews) - MLife Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/30/2010 20:40:08 MST Value of down vs oilI saw where someone calculated oil vs goldI added both vs waterLet's get down to it...The dimensions of a standard 55 gallon drum are 33.5 inches high and 22.5 inches in diameter. Calculation: 3.14 * 11.25^2 * 33.5. = 13,313 cubic inches / 1,728 = 7.7 cubic feet. The Specific Gravity of Gold is 19.3. So 19.3 grams occupy 1 cubic centimeter. 1 Troy ounce is 31.1 grams. To get the volume of 1 Troy oz., 31.1 / 19.3 = 1.61 cubic centimeters. 1 cubic foot = 28,316 cubic centimeters The drum or 7.7 cubic feet = 218,039.7 cubic centimeters 218,039.7 / 1.61 = 135,428.39 troy ounces x \$1,100.00 = \$148,971,229 Price of barrel of oil approximately \$75\$148,971,229 / \$75 = 1,986,283 barrels of oil. IMO, seems like gold is really high compared to what you could do with the energy of almost 2 million barrels of oil.Water...My local water cost is \$1.24 per 100 cubic feet or .0124 per cubic foot 7.7 x .0124 = .09548 (about 10 cents per barrel of water) Good deal! A barrel of gold for water = how many barrels? \$ value of barrel of gold / .09548 = 1,560,235,566 barrels of waterWhat's wrong with this picture?Gold is only very valuable because we perceive it to be so.A barrel of gold can get you about 2 million barrels of oil.A barrel of gold can get you about 1 1/2 billion barrels of water.Interesting how life depends on water, but the other two.Now someone else can figure out how many barrels of DOWN we can get for a barrel of gold. Thanks in advance.
 George Matthews (gmatthews) - MLife Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/30/2010 20:41:27 MST @JosephGood poem.
 John Whynot (jdw01776) Locale: Southeast Texas Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/30/2010 20:53:10 MST @GeorgeA barrel of oil is 42 US gallons...
 Joseph Morrison (sjdm4211) - F Locale: Smokies "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/30/2010 20:54:29 MST Yes it is. My favorite actually.
 Tom Caldwell (Coldspring) - F Locale: Ozarks Petroleum Goose on 01/30/2010 21:11:27 MST Not only is a barrel of crude 42 gallons but Brent Crude was named after a variety of GOOSE.
 Lynn Tramper (retropump) - F Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 12:49:01 MST Geesh, I go away for a weekend and look what happens! We've covered religion, carbon flames, population explosion, euthanasia, guns. We've disagreed over what is "alive" and what can be "killed", factory farming, and just about everything else that is controversial except sex...Some people have commented that, by definition, life means killing. Just this weekend I was contemplating the amazing growth of our little Oyster mushroom farm, and was amazed that such exponential growth was possible just using dead wood, cardboard, straw, autumn leaves etc...no killing involved. Then I was reminded of a question I asked a Hari Krishna devotee many moons ago as to whether eating fungus and yeast was considered killing in their religion. They didn't think so (but weren't 100% sure)...so to this day I figure it must be OK to eat those tasty little morsels. Now I'm not so sure.I also note most plants manage to live and grow without killing anything. So I basically disagree that to live is to kill.As others have said, morality and ethics is about drawing a line. Vegetarians draw the line differently to non-vegos, and vegans draw a different line again, fruitatarians draw and even stricter line more in agreement with Miguel's arguments. It does no good to pick a fight with a vegetarian just because they have drawn their line as they see fit, any more than it is to pick a fight with someone who wants ethically harvested down. Personally, I suspect there isn't such a thing as truly ethically harvested down. Live plucking is no doubt uncomfortable and frightening for the bird. The vast majority of birds grown for food are not ethically treated at most stages of their lives, and that leaves eider down harvest as the only other possible source of down, and there's no way this will ever be able to supply the down desires of a bulging planet.I am also interested to see that the places where Buddhism was born and thrived as a vegan culture just happen to be warm climates. As soon as Buddhism tried to migrate to colder climates, it had to be adapted to allow access to realsitic food supplies and warm bedding and clothing. If the greatest religions in the world can't come up with a single ethical answer, I don't like the chances of this forum solving the issues. However, I DO hope that in future more down suppliers will allow us the information to make our choices based on our own internal moral compass. Edited by retropump on 01/31/2010 14:58:33 MST.
 Jim Sweeney (swimjay) - MLife Locale: Northern California The virtues of discussion on 01/31/2010 14:46:50 MST We'll all have wildly divergent opinions/life views about the large issues, and honest comparison can give us the opportunity to look at each others' opinions in a non-suppressive way (which amazingly has almost entirely been the case in this thread), but if ever it seems anyone is a bit too rigid, it's good to recall a great quote from Christopher Hitchens, "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."
 Doug I. (idester) - MLife Locale: MidAtlantic Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 16:05:53 MST "The difference between animals and humans living in squalor is humans have the ability to think "maybe I should not bring another mouth to feed into this world when I and even my community cannot afford to.""+1, perhaps more...
 Lynn Tramper (retropump) - F Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 16:09:55 MST "The difference between animals and humans living in squalor is humans have the ability to think "maybe I should not bring another mouth to feed into this world when I and even my community cannot afford to."Sadly this is not often the case, otherwise the greatest increases in population would be occurring in developed countries instead of the poorest countries. People living in abject poverty do not have access to the birth control or education needed to make this kind of "informed" decision.
 Doug I. (idester) - MLife Locale: MidAtlantic Re: Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 16:16:30 MST "Sadly this is not often the case, otherwise the greatest increases in population would be occurring in developed countries instead of the poorest countries. People living in abject poverty do not have access to the birth control or education needed to make this kind of "informed" decision."Well, you are, of course, right. I have to agree with this. Still frustrates me though. And I'm talking the world over, not just in impoverished countries.
 Tom Kirchner (ouzel) - MLife Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 16:17:44 MST " also note most plants manage to live and grow without killing anything. So I basically disagree that to live is to kill."Unfortunately not the case. They kill each other all the time by out-competing the less vigorous of their own kind or less vigorous species for sunlight, water, and nutrients, and also by emitting toxins that do other species in. Luck of the draw as to which seed gets deposited where, or first, etc. :(
 Lynn Tramper (retropump) - F Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna Re: Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 16:22:24 MST "Still frustrates me though. And I'm talking the world over, not just in impoverished countries."Amen.And Tom, you can be very depressing sometimes.
 Luke Schmidt (Cameron) - MLife Locale: The WOODS Re Re Re Goose Down Humane on 01/31/2010 16:23:00 MST Thats true Lynn (poor countries having a higher birth rate because of poverty). Another factor is social values that encourage it. Also traditionally your kids have provided for you when you get older. Actually I like the system of families looking out for their own more than letting the government or some corperation do it.
 Tom Kirchner (ouzel) - MLife Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra Re: Re: Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 16:54:50 MST "And Tom, you can be very depressing sometimes."Guilty as charged, Lynn. I even depress myself sometimes. I tell myself that it is because I see the world as it is, rather than as I want it to be, but I'm not so sure about that a lot of the time either. We all live in a world best described by Socrate's Allegory of the Cave, methinks. But then, I go out for a good hike, or a long backpacking trip and none of that matters. There is only the moment, and that is as it should be. Or as I want it to be??
 Lynn Tramper (retropump) - F Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 19:02:50 MST "But then, I go out for a good hike, or a long backpacking trip and none of that matters. There is only the moment, "I wonder if geese and mushrooms can go to this special place in their heads. If so, then maybe they don't really mind being in-prisoned in battery conditions, or live plucked-they merely meditate away the days in pure bliss, living only in the moment. That's a very soothing thought. I notice my hens seem to go into a meditative trance when they are laying eggs...but they also sometimes live in the future. For instance, every time you walk out towards their area they make the "oh look, maybe she'll give us something yummy" noise that all chickens make.
 Tom Kirchner (ouzel) - MLife Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: On the pure joy of being on 01/31/2010 20:18:22 MST "I wonder if geese and mushrooms can go to this special place in their heads."I think they were born there and never leave unless we place them in the kind of inhumane, perhaps better described as eminently "humane", conditions discussed in this thread. Then they are doomed to exist in the moment, a totally different proposition. Or perhaps in their final moments in the clutches of a predator. They were born to do what they do so well and, if one observes them closely, obviously derive great joy from living to their fullest in their natural state. It's in their body language, their calls, their interactions with their own kind. That applies to every animal I have ever observed in the wild, and to a lot of domestic ones as well, if given half a chance, i.e. treated with compassion, a word I much prefer to "humane". As for living in the future, most animals are keenly aware of changing conditions and what they bring if there is a pattern established. Whether or not that translates to living in the future, I just don't know. This I am sure of, however; There's a whole lot more going on in non-primate animals' brains than we think, as some of us are just beginning to realize. Hopefully this will give you a little better idea of where I am coming from and leave you a little less depressed to boot. In closing, and in support of my point, may I recommend to you the movie "Winged Migration". It is a moving testament to the sheer joy of living the life an animal was born to.
 Dondo . (Dondo) Locale: Colorado Rockies Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Goose Down, Humane?" on 01/31/2010 20:30:33 MST I wonder if geese and mushrooms can go to this special place in their heads. If so, then maybe they don't really mind being in-prisoned in battery conditions, or live plucked-they merely meditate away the days in pure bliss, living only in the moment.That is a soothing thought, Lynn, but maybe not too realistic. Those geese in the video I posted on page three of this thread don't seem to have found their happy place. If it looks, walks, and honks like a goose in distress, it probably is. Anyway, I came across this column by Nick Kristof and thought that you might be able to relate to some of his experiences. Hope you like it. Edited by Dondo on 01/31/2010 20:33:34 MST.
 Jim Sweeney (swimjay) - MLife Locale: Northern California Great column on 01/31/2010 22:08:19 MST Thanks, Dondo, for the Kristof column. The image of the goose pleading for its mate's life is very powerful. Others have observed that among the arcs one can trace in human history is the increasing displacement of humans from the center of the universe (by now it's thought that we're not even made up of universe's dominant form of matter), and the ever wider definition of what it means to be human, and to be entitled to human rights. Without being too precise about what it means, I definitely feel that animals are people too.