@Dondo

Beautiful pic. Appreciate it.

In December '06 while visiting my son when he lived in CO, I saw a whole lot of wild geese flying over.

Interesting how those that really migrate seem different than those that stay year round.

Wild Geese
By Mary Oliver

You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert, repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting--
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

The most ridiculous thread I have ever read.

Then why read it and then take the time to comment on it? For some of us it is a serious and worthy topic and that's why we are participating. Not an easy topic to write about, granted.

@George,

Ah, Mary Oliver, one of my all-time favorite poets!

Just clarifying that everyone does understand there are different breeds and species of geese? Some domesticated, like a White Embden of Europe, some wild, like the Canadian Goose. To me, this would be like comparing the killing of a wild junglefowl of SE Asia to the killing of domesticated commercial Cornish meat bird raised in a Tyson chicken house. If you really believe that animals have souls, you might also think that a domesticated animal knows it's lot in life after generations of breeding for a specific purpose. So animal treatment ethics could be different depending on the breed or species.

... where to start with that nonsense.

Edited by DaveT on 01/29/2010 20:00:38 MST.

Ethical goose down ??

Thats a joke !

How do you know and what does it mean.

I used to buy organic fruit and vegis form Everman's
way back in the day and then we found out it was just like
everything else from the grocery store, chemical preservatives, dyes etc.

If money is involved be wary of claims.

The only way I would believe goose down was ethical down was if I shot the goose on the wing then plucked after it was dead.

Of course afterwards I would have a tasty meal.

THE ANSWER


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewzGYW_Hrw

"If you really believe that animals have souls, you might also think that a domesticated animal knows it's lot in life after generations of breeding for a specific purpose."

I suggest that you stick the smart@&& comments that you shared earlier in this thread. At least they made sense...

I came across this when I was digging for more info on humanely harvested down. It's good to see that even the big manufacturers are thinking about this issue...

What is Marmot's policy on live plucking of geese?

Marmot’s Animal Rights Policy:

We believe in the humane treatment of animals. We do not use down provided by “live pluck” operations. We only use down provided after geese have been harvested for food. Our vendors are required to certify that they are complying with our animal rights policy.

Live Pluck Issue:

1. There are three methods for collecting down and feathers from geese:

* Machine pluck of dead animal: After harvesting the goose for food, the down and feathers are removed by a machine and processed. This is the method chosen by Marmot.

* Hand pluck of dead animal: After harvesting the goose for food, the down and feathers are removed by hand and processed. This method is primarily used on small farms.

* Hand pluck of live animal (Live Pluck): Down and feathers are removed by hand from a live goose. This method is still sometimes used on small family farms.

2. Marmot DOES NOT use down from live pluck. We have strict requirements in place with our vendors to ensure that our animal rights policy is adhered to. Humane treatment of animals is an integral part of our company philosophy and we will continue to enforce our requirements throughout our supply chain.

3. Additionally, we DO NOT use down from geese that have been raised for Foie Gras.

"I suggest that you stick the smart@&& comments that you shared earlier in this thread. At least they made sense..."

I would suppose it's also sort of like the ethical differences between killing a wild melon plant from Africa, vs. a domesticated water melon. The wild melon should have more of a right to live, while the domestic melon knows just what is was brought into this world to do. What is really terrible is when I buy some nice melons and use them for target practice with a firearm. And shame on Gallagher, can you imagine the eternal damnation he is going to face for splatting all those melons with the Sledgomatic!

++++++++

Edited by Kutenay on 01/29/2010 22:30:53 MST.

"We have ...improved... quite a number of "things", as "David", "Panis Angelicus", "Ave Maria", "La Pieta", "The Taj Mahal", the poetry of Li Po, Dante, Cervantes and so many others indicates."

The problem with that Romantic theory of human advancement is that when the Allies entered Auschwitz and the other death camps they found the camp commanders reading Goethe and listening to Mozart ... thinking that those particular cultural artefacts represent something pure or wonderful about the human spirit is just the product of a particular society at a particular time. Human tastes change, and what a society values aesthetically changes constantly also.

> Marmot’s Animal Rights Policy:
> We believe in the humane treatment of animals. We do not use down provided
> by “live pluck” operations.

Chuckle. Live pluck from geese at the start of the moult is less ethical than killing them, right?

Or is it that since live-pluck down is usually of a better quality from older birds you would not want to eat, it is consequently MORE EXPENSIVE?

Yes, it is much cheaper to keep the bird for one year and then to kill it for food and sell the body and the down, than to keep and feed the bird for 20+ years and only harvest the down at moult time when it is coming off anyhow.

Great marketing spin, pity about the facts.

Cheers

Good point, Roger. It is rather convenient that their preferred method of harvesting down is both more "humane" (I don't agree, hence the quotation marks) AND more affordable. Here's Tundra's thoughts on the issue of "dead-plucked" down:

"An alternative method is for down to be collected as a by-product of the food industry in which ducks and geese live for just four to six weeks, having been force fed to increase size.

Check out the size of birds on sale in the supermarket and then compare with the traditional images of spring chicks – a four week old chick is tiny compared to their contemporaries on sale at the meat counter!

This also does not seem to us very kind and we do wonder if the short lives of these birds are any more comfortable than those kept for the jet wash process pictured below. Think about the condition our own human hair and skin would be in should we be kept in dark cramped cages and either jet washed or killed off at four to six weeks – not too brilliant we suspect!"

I really like these folks. As Troy suggests, though, a little investigation is warranted.

"Interesting how those that really migrate seem different than those that stay year round."

Yeah, they work for a living instead of porking out on handouts from well meaning urbanites.

Very similar, IMO, to the difference between wild salmon and the farm raised variety.

"The most ridiculous thread I have ever read."

You obviously haven't followed the Great Carbon Flame War or the various gun threads. Check 'em out and see if you still feel this way. ;}

"> Marmot’s Animal Rights Policy:
> We believe in the humane treatment of animals. We do not use down provided
> by “live pluck” operations. "

I'm a bit of skeptic towards Tundra, but even more so of Marmot. When you take into the consideration that the same parent company (Jarden) makes Coleman sleeping bags, as well as Mr. Coffee or Sunbeam kitchen appliances available in every big box dollar store. They can write anything they want, but I don't necessarily buy it.

Edited by Coldspring on 01/30/2010 16:25:10 MST.

>> You obviously haven't followed the Great Carbon Flame War or the various gun threads. Check 'em out and see if you still feel this way.

Have not followed any Carbon threads. Total BS anyway and a waste of time since few of us here are scientists with accurate data. We really only know what we have been told and what we have read for the most part and look where that almost got us.

I will say if you really want to dump a lot of carbon into the atmosphere just do away with electricity and let everybody cook and heat with wood fires. Poor people in Haiti dont even have any trees left.

Have seen a few of the gun threads and I can actually understand the gun threads more than a humane down thread. I personally love squeezing off a few rounds, but guns are just not for everybody.

This down thread is more akin to discussing something rediculous like more humane leather seats for my Jag or super models that wont allow photographers to use film because of the geletain, much less eat jello or a myriad of other animal byproducts that are in everything from soup to nuts.

No offense to the OP because it seems like this weighs heavy on his conscious, but everybody seems to miss the big picture, IE the forrest for the trees. Its not this sort of animal rights crap that is the real problem. The real problem is the overall planet resources vs rapid population growth --

so what really taps the overall planet resources more, natural down or synthetic insulation.

The population is roughly doubling every 50 years and if you figure half the dry land on the planet is suitable for cultivation, that means in roughly 300 years or so each person will have to be supported by roughly 1000 sf of land. That is around 32' x 32'. That is food, water, medical, sanitary, shelter etc etc

I doubt there will be any down around by then because all of the geese will have been eaten, so I am going to stock up some goose down for my GGGGGGGGGG grandkids. There certainly wont be any oil for synthetic insulation by then.

Of course my bro in law thinks we will have a plague in the not to distant future and that will take care of that problem.

So in retrospect I just dont find a humane down discussion to be a worthy topic in the grand scheme of things.
Down is natural and that is good. This ethical discussion may be relevant today for some people, but in 50-60 years it will probably mean absolutely nothing to those very same people.

Some might say well then use synthetics, but synthetics are made from a limited oil supply and takes a lot of energy to make so just more wasted resources since they break down from stuffing. Takes a hell of a lot more energy than natural down thats for sure.

Sorry for the OT rant, but these nagging small animal rights topics just drive me nuts, and yes I was a veg at one time.

Edited by tammons on 01/30/2010 17:18:40 MST.

Troy you have a point in the "big picture" idea. The humaness of my down comes down to more of a personal moral issue than the overall envirnmental question which is more about resources than morals.
As a side note, humans are having less children, one UN report predicts after 2050 or 2075 (can't remember which) the worldwide population will begin to decrease. I'm not saying we don't have to manage things carefully but I'm not convinced the sky is falling yet. At some point we may be offering incentives to people to come to America and work rather than trying to keep them out.

Edited by Cameron on 01/30/2010 17:32:55 MST.

> But these nagging small animal rights topics...

Right on. Since the world is headed for overpopulation and environmental catastrophe anyway, I can once again start killing kittens for entertainment! I mean, if i follow your logic. I mean, if that's logic. I mean... oh whatever.

I know it's just "animal rights crap" but I don't think trying to be more compassionate now EVEN if the world is headed for collapse is nonsensical.

Edited by DaveT on 01/30/2010 18:31:04 MST.