I'm looking at attempting something this June or July that will be pretty insane for me. I want to hike a 116 mile section of trail in three days, unassisted. I've never completed one thirty mile day, let alone a forty miler, so this will be a challenge.

I know there are a lot of people on this forum with high mileage experience, and I'd love it if you'd share some tips with me.

My gear list is both light and good, but could probably be better tailored to this. I'd especially like suggestions on footwear.

I'm in good shape right now, but could certainly improve. I hike and trail run at least forty miles per month, but am looking to take that up to sixty or more. The average hike I take is probably about three miles, but I'll take a few between six and eight every month and throw in a 10-12 miler for good measure.. What type of training/stretching/etc would you recommend? What can I do to improve my stamina?

One thing I'm thinking I should focus on is eating better. Despite all of the hiking I do, I maintain ten or so pounds I don't need due to a fondness for pizza and beer. What do you eat to encourage muscle building and stamina?

Any other tips for the hike itself would be appreciated as well. The trail is the Metacomet-Monadnock Trail in Massachusetts. It's relatively flat, although it's got two big rivers that create a bit of an issue. I'll probably have to barter passage across one of them via a boat.

Thanks

-Nate

Edited by Knaight on 01/27/2010 18:56:07 MST.

What is your mix of trail time versus eat/sleep time?

Sounds like your doing well. I'm interested in this myself.

I would guess your at the point where you should go out and do a 15 miler. Next time try 20. Then 25, 30, 35... see how it goes and that right there will show you.

I really wanna be able to do Isle Royal down and back doing 20-30 mpd.

Anyways good luck and keep training

Andy

you're talking about 38 miles a day for 3 days ?
I'd say your training routine is very inadequate.
There's a bit of a difference between 1 - 38 mile day and 3 of them back to back.

If the trail is mostly flat with little elevation gain and loss, and at fairly low altitude, you at least have that on your side.

If your planned pack is more than 12 lbs or so, I would switch to doing most of your workout with a pack on to train all those other muscles too.

10 miles a week is pretty minimal for what you are planning.
Just my opinion but 3 mile hikes are too short for what you're planning.
You should be doing at least one 20 miler a month (with pack) as soon as possible.
Do at least one 38 mile day (with pack) 4-6 weeks before you're trip just to see if you have a shot at this plan.
If you have trouble with that, then 3 days of 38 miles won't happen.

Stress longer mileage hikes with good rest days to recover.

Heed Arts' advice, he's pretty spot on. You definitely need an increase in your daily mileage and cumulative mileage weekly. 40+ miles per WEEK, not per month (as stated as your current avg. mileage), is probably more ideal and realistic for your goal, and a bit on the conservative side to say the least. Are you looking to accomplish this comfortably and enjoyably or just get through it sans health and sanity? Also, post your gear list up for some feedback from others here.

I personally would focus on the trail running for conditioning, in terms of achieving overall fitness and stamina that is your best bet for preparing your body for the long days of hiking. If your body is accustomed to running up and down variable terrain for extended periods of time it will likely be much more prepared for speed walking with a pack on. Diet is going to also be vital to figure out now, your food intake should be viewed as fuel for your runs/fast hikes; eating what is essential for maintaining your increased metabolism, muscle recovery and growth, and meeting your body's inevitable higher caloric demand on the trail and off.

I agree that your current training program is inadequate. However, depending on the depth of your hiking base, and on your will to suffer, you should be able to complete the project.

First thing, you will suffer. Your feet will hurt like crazy at moments. You can mitigate this a great deal, but you'd also do well to get used to the idea ASAP, and get practicing on doing so by excluding quitting as an option.

Second thing, you'll need lots of time on the feet. Train with your trip weight in your trip pack, in the clothes and shoes and socks you'll use. Toughen up your feet, and get any gear issues well and sorted early.

Third, get fast. Train fast feet, and train hills. Train both to a substantially higher ability than you will need during the big trip, so that both will feel easy during.

For reference, this past summer I trained for a 50 mile race/hike, and some backpacks that covered 70+ miles in two days over mountainous terrain. I got to that point that a 20 mile hike with 4-5k of gain and a day pack could be done in around 6 hours with little stress or suffering.

Nate
Now that we may have freaked you out a bit let me say this:
While speed is preferrable it is not absolutely necessary to achieve your goal.
38 miles can be done in 17 hrs at a 2.25 mph pace.
This may sound slow, but keep in mind it includes ALL water, food, toilet, and misl. breaks during the day. So your moving pace could be 2.5 to 3.5 mph depending on your down time.

Efficiency and organization are key. No wasted down time, just keep moving.

The biggest problem i have ever had with consecutive big miles isn't conditioning, but joint health. Doing 30+ are always a huge pain on my feet and knees. I don't know how to strengthen those other than lots and lots of practice. good luck

Wow, can't believe I just woke up to this many replies. Thanks, everyone!

Okay...

@ Greg -- Since I've never done something like this before, it's hard to say, but I'm guessing that it'll be about 16 to 17 hours hiking and the rest will be sleeping/eating in camp. If this turns out to be inadequate, I may decide to hike a bit longer on days two and three and get a couple hours less sleep that second night. I'm sure it'll make for a more than uncomfortable day three, but if it gets me to my goal it might be the way to go.

@ Andy -- This probably won't be the only post I make on this topic, so feel free to get involved and learn along with me. Maybe you'll think to ask important questions that I wouldn't have.

@ Art -- The trail's highest point of elevation is just over 1200 feet, and except for one 12 mile stretch, it's about as level as you could hope for. This is Massachusetts after all.

That said, I'm well aware that my training's inadequate. I do hike with my day pack weight, which is roughly 5 to 7 lbs depending on whether I take one or two liters of water. This includes my pack, emergency gear, a 100 wt fleece, and a windbreaker.

Throwing in a few more pounds and training with those sounds like a great idea, though. I imagine I'll have to carry a ton of food on this trip, so I might be close to 20 lbs when I start out.

I should be able to start doing a 20 miler per month right away. I might even be able to get two in. I'll start doing that.

@ Eugene -- 40 miles a week...wow. That'll be tough to make happen with my full time job, but I bet I can get up to thirty if I'm creative and efficient with my time. Thanks for throwing out the big numbers, though. I guess it's time to start thinking in those terms.

As far as health and sanity on this trip go...I'm not planning to finish up in great mental or physical shape. I'd like to be free of permanent injuries and broken limbs, though. Since this is a big physical challenge for me, I'm aware that it'll take a lot. That's fine.

Also, as soon as the snow and ice are gone, I'll be doing a lot more running. Right now it's a bit tough. When the snow is deeper, it tends to pack down and I can run on it with my icespikes, but when it's the way it is right now...it's pretty sketchy no matter what I do.

I'd love any tips on diet. I'm not sure what my protein/fat/sugars/carbs intake should be here.

@ David C. -- Yep, definitely planning on suffering here, but in some sick way, that's part of the fun. I like the idea of challenging myself this much.

Any tips on footwear? My current trailrunners are getting worn out, so as I'll be buying a new pair in the next month, I might as well buy what I'm planning on wearing for the big hike, even if it doesn't end up being the same pair. Should I consider special insoles?

@ Art again -- That's pretty much what I was planning for. With six months time, I don't see how I could train enough to average 4 MPH for ten consecutive hours each day, but I think 2.5 for 15 or 16 is possible.

@ David W. -- For the smaller mileage I've done, I've definitely found this is true, so I was banking on the fact that it would work for higher mileage as well. When I first started trail running, even two miles would be painful. After a few weeks, though, my muscles seemed to build up enough to do the trick.

Thanks again, everyone

-Nate

"Any tips on footwear? My current trailrunners are getting worn out, so as I'll be buying a new pair in the next month, I might as well buy what I'm planning on wearing for the big hike, even if it doesn't end up being the same pair. Should I consider special insoles?"


Man, shoes are tough. So personal, and thus I hesitate to give advice.

Get ones that fit (duh), have plenty of toe room (for swelling feet), and are as light as is prudent. This year I've become a huge fan of light, low, flexible shoes like the LaSportiva Fireblade. It took a little while to adapt to such little "hard" cushion, but once I did I was more comfortable, including more comfort w/r/t the pounding of long days on hard trails.

I use blue Superfeet insoles in all my hiking shoes and my ski boots. I like the support, and the additional hard cushion the plastic bases provide, but more than anything I like that they help keep my super-skinny heel from moving around in my shoes. I find it hard to buy shoes big enough (see toe room, above) and still keep my heel locked in. The superfeet really help with this.

So, start buying now! You'll need time to test, sort out your preferences, and possibly try something new before the big trip.

And enjoy the process! Planning, training, and executing something like that is just great fun.

I'll look into the Fireblade. I've got the La Sportiva Rajas right now. They're great as far as comfort and traction go, but the durability seems a little low. After about 80 miles, part of my left sole came part-way off.

I've superglued it down four or five times now to keep it going, but I'm not sure how much longer it'll last. Right now it has an Ice Spike in it, so that'll probably help it along a little longer. I want to say these shoes have 200-250 miles on them now. I'd have liked to see them make it to 500 but it's probably not going to happen.

As far as comfort goes, I've never had a problem with the soles of my feet hurting, but after 12 miles or so my toes tend to get a bit sore from jamming into the front of the shoe. Maybe I bought them just barely too small...

Still, having never done a 30 or 40 mile day, Superfeet are more than worth looking into.

Random thoughts:
My opinion is there is no substitute for practicing on real trail but get rid of your extra ten pounds soon at the gym using an indoor treadmill for hours, split between before and after work to help your body recover. Working off that weight will also help you build up your joints which needs to start soon. After training for a while, you might start to notice which foods tend to give you more energy.

Find a headlamp that you like to use.

At age 60, an MSM chondroitin pill with each meal helped my joints stop crackling and popping, but now I smell like seafood (the pills are made from shellfish). "They say" that noise is also a sign of light dehydration that affects joints first. For training and the event, drink and eat lightly throughout the day, not just heavy at morning and evening. Look for better nutrition in your food and drinks--less junk food and caffeinated pop (a diuretic). You will burn all the calories, but you may need extra nutrition to rebuild what the exercise is using up.

"The best way to get good at carrying a heavy pack in high mountains is to carry a heavy pack in high mountains." That is a magazine quote from an American working as a porter in Nepal in the 1970s.

Fitness and familiarity: Train for your speed hike by speed hiking on all of the trail you will use. A final training goal could be hiking the first 2/3 of the trail in a weekend, then the overlapping 2/3 on the next weekend so each training day covers the same trail as the event. That builds familiarity if you are starting and finishing each daily section in the dark.

There are lots of great models out there, you need to test them out very thoroughly and find what's best for you.

Get your shoes "Larger" than you think you should for those high mileage days. Big toe box and plenty of toe room at the end. On high mileage days my toes usually start hurting first.

If your toes hurt after only 12 miles your shoes are tooo small. Even tender feet should last longer than that.

Also ... I swear by Injinji Toe Socks. They are weird putting on, but feel totally natural very quickly. They definitely help prevent toe blisters.

I have done 30+ miles several times, and it takes it out of you. I never did it back-to-back days. I think the advice here is excellent, especially about getting larger shoes. Your feet will most certainly swell.

About the best advice I can give is to get up early and start walking. If you can average 3.0 miles per hour - a pretty good hiking pace - that's still nearly 13 hours a day of hiking, excluding breaks. Waking up late isn't an option in such circumstances.

Getting plenty of rest certainly helps, and if you are on trail for 14 hours a day (considering a break for lunch, getting water, short gbreaks) that leaves only 10 hours to sleep, eat, setup/breakdown sleeping area. Your body will want and need the rest.

Train yourself! Trying to do this with minimum training would be very difficult. Good luck! Let us know how it works out.

Okay, so right now it seems to be all about getting more training, better nutrition, and bigger footwear.

I'm thinking right off the bat that I can probably get my weekly mileage up to 25 miles. That's only two six or seven mile days and four three mile days, leaving room for an off day. When the ice melts and I can go faster, I should be able to get that number higher and start aiming for 120 to 150 miles per month.

Nutrition shouldn't be too hard to come by, I'll just need to do a bit of research and be disciplined. I'm thinking more protein, vegetables, and fatty acids is a good place to start.

Other than getting bigger shoes, I'm still at a loss in this department. The Fireblade's look like they may not work for me. I'm 6'2", 195 lbs, and it seems like bigger guys experience sore feet on high mileage days. I'm thinking I'll need a balance between lightweight, cushioning, and a large toe box, but that may be tough to find. I'll definitely try out a pair of those toe socks, though.

Thanks for your insights, everyone. Feel free to share more if you have them. I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way.

-Nate

Quote from Scott Williamson (Michelle is his wife):

I have found out that hiking someone else’s pace, which is significantly different from my normal pace, actually tires me out more than if I were doing my normal pace. Recently, when Michelle sat out for a few days to rest her feet, I opened up to 40-mile days and was shocked to find myself feeling much better than I did hiking 25 miles in the same 12-14 hour period. This makes me think that the amount of time spent on the feet plays almost as much of a role in fatigue as does the number of miles done.

Im looking to do the TRT (165mi) in 5 days in July and then the PCT in 2011 at a pretty good clip. I started doing 30mi day hikes with full pack once or twice a month starting in November. I am increasing them by 2-3 miles a month until attempting a 45mi hike in late June. Also since I do most of my real hiking is in the sierras at high elevation I target my day hike through some pretty rough terrain on the AT, typically 8-11k elevation gain over the 30-32mi.

I have been targeting 3mi/hr total speed and have maintained that through 32. As the days increase in length so will my mileage but I will continue to target the 3mi/hr not an increase in speed.

As far as footware, I love my Solomon XA Pro 3d Ultras. I use these with liners and midweight hiker w/powder and have had no issues with blisters. (I am 6'2", 190lb.)

I also play around with caloric intake and have been much better at avoiding the 18-20mi bonk that often occurs due to caloric deficiency during these hikes.

Overall, I am doing less frequent, longer hikes with healthy workouts on an elliptical in between. I also do weekend snowshoe trips up in the sierra about once a month to add a different form of workout.

Good luck

Edited by gg-man on 01/29/2010 08:20:04 MST.

Lots of good advice here Nate, that I won't repeat. I did what you are planning on my Katy hike. Instead of 3 days, I went for 7. To give you some idea of what to expect: I came off of marathon training, which had me running close to 175 miles per month. In the weeks before the hike, my long runs were 17-22 mi. with 5 other runs in the 4-8 mi. range. If you want to make this happen, up your mileage now! Don't go more than 20% per week on the increases, or you're going to injure yourself. Think of your training as a roller coaster w/ high weeks followed by lower weeks that give you recovery time. Under recovery is Overtraining! Overtraining is an injury waiting to happen. If you're honest on the training regimen, the 10lbs will go away. Instead of 3-4 beers w/ pizza cut back to 1 or 2, ease up on the junk calories(ie. sugar, fat) Get your calories from whole grains, lean meats, fresh fruit and veggies. Calories in, Calories out is the name of the game. High fiber foods will satisfy your hunger before the junk calories do. Try to avoid eating 2 to 3 hours before bed. Eat a balanced breakfast. It is the most important meal of the day, seriously. Eat your calories over 5 or 6 feedings per day, instead of 2 giant meals. Train 6 days, rest on the 7th. Physical fitness is only part of the equation. The time on your feet is going to be harder on you than the actual physical load. When you stop, get off your feet and take your shoes off to let your feet cool and reduce swelling. Watch the clock, an extra 5 min. per break adds up to an hour of hiking in the dark! You want to see your hike, try to get all your hiking in during the daylight. Feel free to PM me, if you have other questions.

I do 2-3, 20-25 mile hikes.

I work full time, so my training is 0220-0400 Hrs. each morning. I do Mon-Wed-Fri, lower leg weight efforts (i.e. squats, leg lifts, step ups, forward thrusts) with 30 lb. weights.

On Tue-Thur-Sat, I run 3-5 miles, mixing in intervals (3-mi) and sustained stride (4-5 mi). runs. Sometimes on trail, or on a paved river path.

On my hikes, it's light pack, Soloman XT Pro trailrunning shoes (very good for light-weight hiking), French Foreign Leg. stile North Face sun hat.

For fuel, it's Hammer Nutrition HEED & Sustained Energy. I start with the HEED on first two bottles, then after 8-10 miles, switch to Sustained Energy. I
time 5-mi per bottle.

I start with a simple meal, not to be bloated or having to stop too soon for a potty break, and fuel as I go.

And my pace is "scorching", like a race. Keep moving, keep breaks VERY SHORT!, "make time on the climb", never stop while climbing, eat/refuel at the top/before hitting base of climb.

Pick small targets on the climb rather than focusing on the top "that tree, that boulder, that notch", so that you don't become dismayed. Fun to look back on the climb and reward yourself!

at your current self described level of fitness, I would only train 3-4 days a week but make the training hikes/runs longer. As you get in better shape you can fill in with 1 or 2 shorter days.
REST and RECOVERY are IMPORTANT.

On your planned hike, you won't be doing a sprint, you will be spending time on your feet. So spending time on your feet is what your training needs now. This will also help you understand the shoe issue better. 3 mile hikes do not help you understand shoes, skip them.

Don't rush to buy a pair of shoes until you understand time on your feet a little better.

Think of your training mileage in 1 week blocks not in 1 month blocks, easier to modify and monitor. Plan a 4 week cycle with 1 heavy mileage week and 1 light mileage week.

Base your training around your weekend LONG hike, whatever distance that is. Start ASAP and make this hike as long as you feel you can handle without injury.

Sample Plan Only
week 1 plan: 27-31 miles
6-8 miles
rest-cross train
6-8 miles
rest-cross train
15 miles
rest-cross train (2-3 mile hike optional, helps recovery)
rest cross train

week 2 plan : repeat, but up long hike to 20 if possible
week 3 plan : repeat, drop back to 15 for long hike
week 4 plan : repeat, 20 mile long hike

Reevaluate after every 4 week cycle to see if you can/should increase mileage.
Do not over train (others have said this).
Staying injury free is important.

Edited by asandh on 01/29/2010 10:49:28 MST.

Thanks for all of your input; I'm feeling pretty inspired right now. There are some limitations in my life that will prevent me from doing the exact training routines some of you mentioned, but I can definitely mix in higher mileage days and increase my overall mileage as well.

Off days will be hard to come by because we adopted a bull terrier / border collie mix a couple of weeks ago and he needs good exercise every day. I try to take him for at least a one mile hike up the mountain behind our house before work in the mornings. Sometimes I'll do two or three miles then but that's been about it on work days.

I've actually been inspired to increase that before-work mileage a few times a week, though, starting with today. I have to head out for work in twenty minutes, but I was able to get in four miles with a fifteen pound back and averaged just over 3 MPH despite some pretty sketchy snow and ice. It was a cold one, though. Negative 14 with the windchill!

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I can do 4 miles before work three days a week, and consider the 1 mile days "rest days". On my days off, I'll aim for one 6-8 mile hike and one 15-20 mile hike for now. When the snow melts, I'll increase all of that. That should easily put me above 30 miles a week.

For those big miles, any tips on how I can manage my calorie intake to prevent a bonking? Haven't had a whole lot of success in that department so far.

Thanks!

"For those big miles, any tips on how I can manage my calorie intake to prevent a bonking? Haven't had a whole lot of success in that department so far."


As you build up a training base, your body will get better at slow-burning, efficient use of fuel. Longer efforts and sustained amounts of stress will actually increase the mitocondrial density in your cells (and thus your metabolism).

Before a big day I always eat a solid breakfast with plenty of dense carbs (beans, grape nuts, etc) and a good chunk of protein. For on the go snacks I rely on a mix between salty fats (chips, nuts, jerky) and simple sugary junk (twizzlers, gels).

If anything, food is more personal than shoes. What I eat certainly doesn't work for everyone, but the chips and twizzlers diet has been bulletproof for me in all sorts of situations.

In the old days when I used to do 20-35 miles per day on lightweight backpack trips, I found that I could not sit down for a lunch break. I would have to eat a snack as I walked. For that reason, upon leaving camp in the early morning, I would have energy bars stuffed into my pants pockets ready to go.

I would break up each day into three periods. I would walk for the first period, typically 6-10 a.m., and attempt to cover 10 miles. Then snack. The second period was 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., and I would try to knock off another 10 miles. Then snack. After 3 p.m. was the difficult one. I would try to knock off another ten miles before camping. Typically I would be too tired to eat in camp. That, of course, will get bad results.
--B.G.--

Twizzlers and chips...hmmm, I'll have to try it. I haven't looked into gels too much, but it seems like it might be worth my time. I could see how not having bulky food in my stomach could make a difference for big days. Any recommendations? How about those Clif Shots?

The people who really understand this subject are the crazies called ultramarathoners. I used to crew for a runner on these 100-mile killers. For one particular course in California, it was 15,000 feet of elevation gain and loss over 100 miles, all done in a time period of 15-30 hours. When a runner would arrive at a checkpoint, the crew would supply whatever the runner wanted to consume. 50-50 flat Coke and water, with a pinch of salt added. 50-50 Gatorade and water. Chocolate chip cookies. Bananas. Aspirin.
Basically, everything had to be easily digestible, because the whole secret was in being able to digest the calories while actively on the move.
--B.G.--

You will hear people talk about the ultimito diet with certain percentage of carbs, fats etc. I would suggest trying to max out on the calories, however you can stomach them. Everyone is different and I have really struggled with getting enough calories in me especially above 10k' on my high milegae days. Last Saturday's 32mi found me consuming a bag of hostess donuts (1800 calories) before and during the first 20mi. I ate a decent lunch of about 800 calories (turkey and cheese on wheat with chips) and finished off the last 12 munching on barbacue fritos bringing my total to about 3k. Was that ideal, no way but I could get it in me and I had the energy to run 6 of the last twelve. Bottom line, get the calories, then adjust to better, more ideal foods.

Hey Nate,
Try going out on a hike. Don't think milage or time, just go out until something starts to hurt. Push the pace hard enough in order to make it happen as well.
Also make sure you have your pack on with the weight you will be carrying.

Once you find out what hurts figure out what you need to both make it better and prevent it from happening in the first place. You can also try different combinations of shoes/ socks so you don't have to worry about it on the trail.

Once you do this a few times, you will at least know what to expect.

Also figure out what weight you have estimated now and use that weight for the first hike. Then figure out just how light you can go and take that on the 2nd hike.
This is what made me love going lite long ago. It is sssoooo much more fun going as light as you can.

Good luck, and have fun!

I should have a chance tomorrow to go out for a long time and do some big miles. I'm guessing I'll be able to get in at least 15, if not 20, so it'll be a good opportunity to start figuring out when it starts to hurt, how much I need to eat, etc.

In the meantime, I've increased my daily mileage a fair bit. Did 4 miles Saturday, 6 miles yesterday, and am about to go out and do 4 more today before I have to leave for work. I've been doing all of this with a 15 lbs pack and have been hitting the 3 MPH mark or better despite lots of snow and ice and a fair amount of elevation gain/loss.

I need to start staying on top of my diet, though. How come every time I try and eat healthy there happens to be lots of free pizza or donuts around?

Anyway, thanks again for everyone's input.

As long as you're converting that food into energy and building muscles at the same time, that is whey you are hiking, right?

Increasing milage means less work on the diet and just more about the quality of the food your feeding those muscles..

Well, I did 14 miles today over maybe 4000-4500 ft elevation gain/loss. Wanted to do 20 but I hit the trail late and ran out of time. I completed all of that in five hours, 2 minutes, which figures out to around 2.8 MPH. I was hoping for at least 3 MPH, but I purposely didn't run much because I wanted to see how I'd do with simple fast hiking.

I ran a good chunk of the last two miles and was happy to see how much energy I had left over. Based on that, next time I go out for a 15 miler, I'll do a lot more running on the downhills and some flats. That should put me somewhere between 3.25 and 3.5 MPH, which would be pretty solid.

I'm positive that what kept my energy levels up was a consistent intake of food, something that I haven't been so careful about in the past. I made sure to consume a couple hundred calories every hour, and split that between Clif Bars and the Twizzler/Chips method. Liked the Twizzlers and chips, but I couldn't really eat them while moving because I had a dog on one hand. A bar has the advantage of being easy to hold one-handed, allowing me to keep going.

I definitely learned the advantage of minimal break taking today. I was fairly happy with my time, considering I didn't run much, and it was due to the fact that I wouldn't allow myself to stop when I wanted to. I only stopped when it was time to eat something, and then only for two minutes. I had one five minute break about ten miles in, and I honestly didn't really need it. In fact, it just made me cold and I was happy to keep moving.

I did find that some of my foot placement wasn't as sturdy starting around mile ten, so I guess that's an indicator that I was a bit fatigued at that point, even if I wasn't feeling it. My knees began to bother me a bit around then too, but not terribly.

What do I need to do to keep my joints from hurting? Is it as simple as slowly building up my mileage (and therefore the necessary muscles)?

Thanks again for everyone's advice. I've obviously got a long way to go, but at least I have an idea where I stand now and can work from there.

Nate,

I have been using the following for my marathon training and it has worked very well. I know others on this site have used it with great success.

http://www.hammernutrition.com/

I think the following book is one of the best for explaining how your body reacts to endurance sports. Excellent read whether you use the products or not.

http://www.hammernutrition.com/downloads/fuelinghandbook.pdf?utm_source=Endurance%2BAthletes%2BGuide%2Bto%2BSuccess&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=fuelingbook

I like Heed for training 2 hrs or less. Perpetuem has worked well for training over 2 hours. I also use endurolytes throughout my training.

You have received plenty of great advice from others. I wish you the best of luck on your hike.

Yeah, the advice in this thread has been incredible. Much more than I expected, and there's no question that it's helped point me in the right direction. I'll take a look at this book; thanks for pointing me to it.

1) Don't worry about the joints, it will get better, or at least that was my experience.
2) On your non-hiking days try bumping up your speed. I would expect that you could exceed 3mph easily based on the lack of breaks. You are the same height as me so you should have a very long stride. Yesterday i took a break and walked to the end of the road and back, 1.3mi We averaged 5.1mph. It was MUCH harder than running but I believe it teaches your body how to go faster.
3) Don't be too hard on yourself if a particular hike is tougher or you have to cut it a bit short. There will be other days when everything is hitting and you'll exceed your goal.
4) +1 on the hammer site but remember, you have to be able to eat it!
5) Finally, watch the running downhills. You may not be able to walk for a few days and you may be called gramps.

Gramps

Nate Great job.
You seem to be doing everything right.
Be careful not to over train in your new found enthusiasm. Try not to add more than 10% to your mileage each week, and make sure to take 1 or 2 rest days a week given your current level. Rest days are what build you back up. you could do some upper body cross training on a rest day. As you get in better shape a full rest day could be replaced by a light, easy trail day.

I also love Hammer products. When I run ultras, I consume Hammer Gel and Hammer Perpetuum exclusively. I consume the gel using the 5 serving Hammer flasks. I carry the perpetuum in a zip lock baggy and dump a scoop in my water bottle every time I refill it.
If you do decide to use gels, make sure to buy it in the 26 serving Hammer bottles and get 3 or 4 of Hammer's 5 serving flasks for the trail. These are very easy to use while hiking or running.

Frequent food consumption in small amounts is key.

Your joints should improve with training and REST.

Keep it up.

p.s.
If you're willing to spend the money, Hammer Recoverite is great after a workout to speed muscle recovery.
You could also just buy an 8oz or 16oz jar of Glutamine from a vitamin store and take 1/2 to 1 teaspoon after workouts. Glutamine is an amino acid that speeds muscle rebuilding.

Go to the Hammer web site they have lots of good nutrition info.

Edited by asandh on 02/03/2010 00:41:51 MST.

Greg -- I'm sure hitting over 3 MPH won't be a problem, at least on distances of 15-20 miles. Part of the issue was that I would continually catch myself drifting into a relaxed pace after 7 miles or so. I had to keep reminding myself that I was trying to go fast.

Art -- I will definitely try out the Hammer products. With this many people recommending them, I'd be stupid not to.

Something just occurred to me:

The trail I'll be hiking crosses the Connecticut River, which is maybe a 1/4 mile wide, quite deep, and heavily trafficked by all sorts of boats. Basically, it'd be unsafe to swim across it, especially after hiking 27 miles that day. Hiking to the nearest bridge and back adds 10.1 miles, according to Google Maps.

Most through hikers of this trail arrange for a boat ride or barter for one at the boat ramp where the ramp meets the water. Since this is something all hikers are forced to do, if I pay someone $20 to ferry me across, is my hike still considered unsupported?

It is nice to see that someone else is taking on what might be just a little too much. I find that the things in life that really test my mind and body are the ones that bring a real sense of accomplishment and joy. Keep your eyes on the prize and you will accomplish more then you think possible. It is amazing what the body will do when the mind has the will to make it!

"What do I need to do to keep my joints from hurting? Is it as simple as slowly building up my mileage (and therefore the necessary muscles)?"

I'd say that is exactly what you need to do to avoid pain. As Art noted, don't overdo it. It might take a few years to build up to the point where 20 mile days aren't a big deal, but it's worth doing it right the first time. I battled knee issues and IT band syndrome back in my running days, and the time and frustration necessary to kick a chronic overuse injury was immeasurably frustrating.

Gels certainly work. I've used Hammer products, and hated them. The gels were tolerable, Heed was gross, and Perpetuum makes me what to barf just thinking about it. I like Gu the best, but find that junk food works just as well, and is a lot cheaper. For multiday stuff I do indulge in Clif and especially Probars. Super tasty, great nutritional balance, and tons of calories in small package. Good stuff.

Basically, you want to by psyched to eat it even when you feel bad. That might be space food, junk food, PB and J, cheeseburgers, etc. Once you hit the wall, all bets are off.

As for the boat crossing, I have no idea what the "official" rules are in the hiking community. I'd say go for it. Hiking 10 miles there and back just for the rules police seems, forgive me, stupid.

I'll say good job when you get this done, but in the end, you're probably the only person who will really understand what you went through or give a darn. Make yourself happy. Don't take shortcuts if you can't live with them, but that ought to be the only concern.

Imo.

Regarding the $20 boat, this is a really good question that could go either way ...
depending on the "Connecticutt rules police" :-)
I just don't know.

Regarding Dave's condemnation of Perpetuum, I guess you love it or hate it. I like it so much I drink it as a snack even when I'm not running.
I put 1 scoop (about 125 cal.) into a 20oz water bottle and shake really well.

"I'll say good job when you get this done, but in the end, you're probably the only person who will really understand what you went through or give a darn. Make yourself happy. Don't take shortcuts if you can't live with them, but that ought to be the only concern."

+1 Couldn't have said it better.

Not to get too colorful, but chafing becomes a bit of a problem after 15 miles or so. I'm sure people must have strategies for this other than just dealing with it. Any suggestions?

Bodyglide... mmmm

better than sex

An indelicate subject perhaps but a fact of life. Several steps to take:

-Slim down. I almost always chafe around my (urrhmm) booty after 30 or so miles. When I'm especially lean this is less of a problem.

-Patagonia lightweight capilene boxer briefs. One of the best inventions ever. These wick sweat and prevent chaffing (for me!) much better than the mesh liner found in many running type shorts. I cut the liner out of all mine years ago.

-Short shorts! Ventilation and cool (ie less sweaty) legs and what not are a very good thing. On big hikes I wear shorts until it gets pretty darn cold.

-Bodyglide is your friend. REI sells it in little, personal sized sticks just like a deodorant stick. Easy to carry, easy to apply, effective. Use it early and often. For ultra races and big days, I apply a generous coat to the relevant areas before I even get on the trail. Petroleum Jelly and Desitin also work, but not as well and are rather messy to use.

Edited by DaveC on 02/09/2010 20:23:07 MST.

"Bodyglide... mmmm

better than sex"

Huh? ;}

Something ye old geezers don't get.

Nate, I wanted to mention this a few days ago when I first read this thread, but I got sidetracked.

You mentioned that your toes hurt a little after 10 miles or so, from jamming in the front of your shoes? I would say for sure you need to go up a half size in your shoes. When I trained for my first marathon, I thought that my shoes fit perfectly until I started hitting the teens for mileage, at which point I discovered the joy of the black toenail. fit definitely needs to be your first priority, and you need to break the shoes in somewhat before the big event. There are ways to lace your shoes that help keep your heel locked back as well

chafing? definitely Bodyglide, I put in anywhere that I chafe. Be sure to wear the same shirt and shorts/underwear for training that plan on wearing when you do your hike, you often find spots that chafe after long miles that you didn't know about previously.

Food, just a word of advice, if you use gels, you might want to stay away from caffeinated ones, they always send me looking for a bathroom.

River crossing: well, anyone who pooh-poohs your effort because you didn't risk getting decapitated by a boat's prop needs to grow up. That being said, how about bringing a seylor trail boat (much cheaper than an alpacka) and paddling across the river? you could ditch it on the other side (have a friend pick it up later)and as a bonus, you get to look ridiculous, running through the woods with a couple of paddle blades sticking out of your pack.

best of luck!

My 18th wedding anniversary is coming up, What have I been missing!?

I've used Under Armour boxer-briefs in the past with some success, but apparently they're not cutting it anymore. I'll check out the Patagonias. Any other suggestions? Seems like a lot of people use merino.

I'll be picking up one of those bodyglide sticks today.

And Josh, I'll definitely be going up a half size with my next pair of shoes. This other pair is just about to wear out, so I'm trying to get it through the last of the winter season and then I'll pick up the new ones.

I've been looking around but still haven't decided on a model yet. I figure that being a bigger guy, I need some cushioning for the longer miles I'll be doing, but light weight is pretty important as well. I'm thinking maybe the La Sportiva Wildcats. I'll probably start a thread on this in the next week or two; there's no beating the information that people on this forum have.

Edited by Knaight on 02/10/2010 06:11:41 MST.

I switched last year to EMS TechWick boxer-briefs, after a very extensive search to replace my tattered underarmor! I think they turned out to be the cheapest tech fabric undies I could find and I have to say, the quality and durability is excellent, and I have not had any issues with chaffing or lost elasticity. I think they're a better fit (for me, anyway) than the underarmors. Unfortunately, they were only available in black or silver, so my normal neon green or orange color choices were a little restricted. Ah, well, we have to make compromises in the spirit of ultralight, I suppose. ;-)

On recommendation from this site, I bought the Under Armour briefs and have been testing them just doing some walking, they seem to completely protect my thighs in the area where I used to get chaffing and are very comfortable. My wife thinks their sexy too, so that's a bonus!

I used UA drawers cause they dri quickly and figured that'd be most important in that area. But MAN they can get to smellin. Around town and on the avg day I wear smartwools and over the years I have worn holes ion the crotch of a few pair. Baseball size holes... So I'm gonna wear them hiking- I think its the best of both (or all three) Comfort, no smell, AND ventilation.

My wife calls me 'the eccentric hiker' cause I have pants rolled up, fly unzipped, visor on with a bandanna covering the top of my head. (yellow bandanna at that)

Am I the only person in the world that feels like underarmor slaps their decal on any generic chinese product and triples the price? Price is not always the best indicator of quality either.

Do you live near the AT, Mt. Greylock, perhaps? Fill up your pack with fifty pounds of water (or less!) run up hill on trail. Dump out the weight at the top. Do that for several consecutive days. That's what Dave at Mt. Rogers Outfitters in Damascus, VA did to prepare for high altitude hikes in the Andes. It worked.

For gear and other tips visit:

http://www.andrewskurka.com/

I think Andrew hiked 190 miles of the HSR in 7 days or so, and that is mostly no trails.

Edited by rambler on 02/10/2010 12:11:55 MST.

I actually am fortunate enough to live at the base of a small mountain, a few hundred feet from a hiking trail that links with the long distance trail I plan to hike. The mountain has a state park on it with 20 miles of interlocking trails, so between that and the Metacomet-Monadnock trails, the hiking possibilities feel nearly endless.

I've been doing nearly daily runs and hikes up there; have accumulated somewhere between 35 and 40 miles so far this month. Pretty happy with that total since it's what I usually do on a monthly basis and I've managed to do it all in ten days. I was doing this with a pack until my dog chewed off the alligator clip on my hipbelt. I have a new one on the way from Golite, but am just hiking with a Camelbak in the meantime.

Although I've been doing these hikes and runs with 15-20 lbs instead of 50, it definitely makes a difference. Running those hills with a 20 lbs pack is pretty intense.

"Something ye old geezers don't get."

Huh??

"Fill up your pack with fifty pounds of water (or less!) run up hill on trail. Dump out the weight at the top. Do that for several consecutive days."

Run uphill with 50#??? Several consecutive days???

I am skeptical, to put it mildly.

That IS NOT good for your body.

Anyone who can run up a real mountain carrying 50 lbs is a freaking animal. I couldn't begin to do that even before I gave up running.

Hiking up a mountain carrying a bunch of water, then dumping it and descending, that is good stuff. My favorite form of training, actually. Just did it this evening (with an esbit powered green tea break at the summit), in fact. I also carried 20 lbs of climbing gear round trip, you need weight to train the "down" muscles too, but that demands a more conservative buildup.

"Hiking up a mountain carrying a bunch of water, then dumping it and descending, that is good stuff. My favorite form of training, actually."

+1

I would recommend determining as close as possible the weight you will carry on your "project hike" and train carrying that weight in your pack but no more. Hike up AND down hill with this weight.

I trained with a heavier than normal pack a few years ago for a project. Yes it made me very strong but it also made me slower on the trail. My stride was shorter and my cadence was slower due to the heavier weight.

If you're planning a "speed" hike train for speed.

p.s.
Nate, don't let your enthusiasm prevent you from taking rest days. At your level you need them to prevent injury.

Edited by asandh on 02/12/2010 14:20:10 MST.

While my main focus right now is simply to build up to longer, faster miles, I've also been trying to work out the other details of the trip, including food. I definitely plan on experimenting with the Hammer products over the next few months, but in the mean time I've been trying out different options.

Yesterday I decided to go for a ten mile hike, but didn't have any good energy food options around the house. I noticed a block of cheese and thought it might do the trick. It did. I ate a third of it at roughly hours one and two, and finished the hike just before the third hour (3.38 MPH on tough terrain! Not bad for me).

I never came close to having a crash and felt great pretty much the entire time. Granted, ten miles and three hours might not be quite enough to judge a food by, but for shorter hikes like that one it seems solid.

Now, when people are taking trips that involve less than 15 miles a day, I see things like blocks of cheese in their menus pretty often. Is there a reason that they don't show up when people are doing bigger miles? At 110 calories per ounce, they're not too heavy. They're easy to eat while walking and even running, to an extent. The taste is amazing when you've been going non-stop.

It'd be nice if I could take a few of these along on my trip to vary the menu a bit. They'd also be nice to have on training hikes. Is there any reason I should avoid this?

Well, it's pretty high fat and it will clog up your bowels in excess. Otherwise the only issue I can think of is spoilage on longer trips or turning to mush on hot trips.

Edited by simplespirit on 02/16/2010 06:18:46 MST.

"Is there any reason I should avoid this?"

Except for what Chris noted (the poo thing, the heat thing), I can't think of why not. You can even defeat the heat thing to a large extent by bringing a hard cheese like romano. Instant mashers with olive oil and chunks of romano, there's nothing better!

On big days, especially in the cold, my body craves fat. During Le Parcour last October Kevin S. and I ate straight chunks of butter at times, and boy was it good. 9 calories per gram, baby.

As Kevin taught me, and I learned as a shortcoming in my food on that trip, you need enough carbs to prime the glow plugs that are your fat reserves and the fat you consume. If you don't, it's easy to get into a hole.

Keep experimenting, focusing not only on how you feel during and after the hike, but also on how your nutrition tactics influence your recovery for the next two days.

Keep it up man, you're doing all the right things!

I'm not an exercise nutrition expert ... but
Cheese is definitley not what athletes use for an event as "short" as 3 hours. Some cheese may be helpful for its slow burning calories in an all day-multiday event.

3 hours or less is generally almost entirely complex carbs.

Above 3 hours, "some" protein and fats are added to the mix. Protein to prevent muscle cannibalization, and fat for its long slow burn.

The faster, more intense your effort the more complex carbs you will tend to want. Fat is ideal for keeping the hunger down, and for long slow energy. But ALL cheese ... that would sit like lead in my stomach

Cheese has a lot going for it for longer-distance hikes:

1. It keeps for several days without going bad, and even when it does, you cut off the mold and eat it still.

2. It's satisfying. It provides that "full" feeling without a lot of weight.

3. The protein protects against muscle cannibalization -- a key problem with long-distant hiking, where we tend to eat too many carbs and not enough protein, let's face it.

4. The fat in cheese provides slow-metabolizing energy, which is what we really need, not the quick fix of some sugar-laden, carbed-up energy bar.

Just my opinion, and I could be wrong, given the fact that I'm not a biologist.

However, cheese has worked well for me in the past.

Stargazer

Edited by nerdboy52 on 02/16/2010 10:34:25 MST.

> Well, it's pretty high fat and it will clog up your bowels in excess.
On a hard trip, 'too much cheese' can be hard to achieve.
More Cheese!
Er - real cheese, not 'processed muck'.

Cheers

Please define "real cheese."

Do you mean anything except for genuine processed cheese product? Like good Swiss stuff.

Don't laugh, but my favorite is Kraft No Fat Cheese.

--B.G.--

Thought I'd post a few updates without starting a new thread:

I've lightened my load

I'm down to a baseweight of roughly 7.5 lbs now, which I imagine will put me just under 15 when I'm fully loaded on day one. I'd like to take this down even further and will post a gear list within the next week or so once I've retooled everything and weighed it.

Notable gear additions are a JRB Sierra Sniveller quilt that I just picked up from Gear Swap, and an ID Siltarp 1, also from Gear Swap. Gotta love this forum!

Training is going well

I've been doing a little over 100 miles per month. Nearly every training hike or run has been with a ~15 lbs pack and I've had a couple of big mileage days in there. My best so far is 35 miles in 11 hours and 55 minutes. Many of my training hikes and runs have doubled as reconnaissance, and I've done just under half of the 116 mile trail in sections.

I'm also eating way better and have lost about 12 lbs since my initial post here. That's made a pretty big difference in my performance.

I've got my clothing / footwear system down

Based on many peoples' recommendations, I picked up a Patagonia Capilene 2 t-shirt and love it. This will be my baselayer for the hike. I also picked up some Mountain Hardwear Canyon Pants. I know some people would do this hike in shorts, but I prefer a light pair of pants to keep prickers, bugs, and sun off my legs.

I've put about 200 miles on my Inov-8 Roclite 315's and those are here to stay. Paired with Injinji merino socks, they're perfect. I may switch to Injinji Coolmax for the summer, though.

Still haven't picked up a new pair of boxer-briefs, but a combination of losing weight and using Body Glide has done away with the chafing problem.


Honestly, things are going better than I guessed they would. What seemed like an insane goal when I started this thread now seems realistic. 20 miles doesn't seem like much at all anymore. I can knock out 12 miles before noon, go home, and carry on with the rest of my day as normal. I definitely have everyone who's responded with their insight to thank.

Some simple bits of advice, like sizing up a half size on my shoes and training myself to never stop moving while climbing have been invaluable. So seriously, thanks.

I've decided to up the ante a bit. As far as I know, no one has set an FKT for this trail. Since there's a shot my three day hike will be the fastest anyone's ever done it, I'm thinking I might as well just go for an FKT and do it as fast as I can.

So here's me publicly announcing my intent to attempt an FKT for the Metacomet-Monadnock Trail. I realize that by setting a public record, someone is likely to come along and beat it within a year or so, but it'll be fun to try and set a fast record nonetheless.

The tentative dates for the hike are June 26-28, so that gives me about two more months to get some massive training in.

My new goal is going to be to do this in under 58 hours, or over an average of 2 MPH for the entire hike. This will involve some night hiking, which I'll admit freaks me out a bit. I've done plenty of night hikes with my wife and with friends, but hiking solo in the dark for hours on end seems a bit unnerving. I'll have to start doing some of this straight away to get used to it.

Now that I'm thinking in FKT terms, I'm even more concerned about crossing the Connecticut river. I'd like to do this "unsupported", but hitching a boat ride across will definitely throw that into question for some people. Is there anyone who actually "makes the rules" on these types of thing? In my opinion, swimming a 1/4 mile in strong currents on a heavily-used river after hiking 27 miles is just stupid. It'd be different if I had someone in a boat as a spotter, but since it's an unsupported hike, I can't.

In favor of weight and efficiency, I've decided to leave the stove at home for this one. I'm thinking my diet will consist of entirely Clif Bars and Perpetuum, save a couple of candy bars at night. I haven't actually tried Perpetuum yet, but I've used Hammer Gel on sub 3 hour runs with success and expect Perpetuum will work just as well for me. I'll be picking some up in the next week or two and trying it out on my big mileage days.

Can anyone see anything wrong with the above diet? I'm not in danger of hurting myself or hitting a wall, am I?

Also, does anyone here take painkillers when doing ultra-type trips? So far, I've neglected to take any, but I also haven't done huge miles multiple days in a row yet. It seems like popping a few ibuprofin on this trip might help get the job done. Thoughts?

Anyway, thanks again everyone. Any and all tips, concerns, etc are welcome.

Edited by Knaight on 04/30/2010 22:15:46 MDT.

"Also, does anyone here take painkillers when doing ultra-type trips? So far, I've neglected to take any, but I also haven't done huge miles multiple days in a row yet. It seems like popping a few ibuprofin on this trip might help get the job done. Thoughts?"

Carrying along some OTC ibuprofen is wise, but I would not plan on consuming very many unless you keep totally hydrated. I've seen people who were running low on hydration and consuming a maximum dose of ibuprofen (or more), and they got into renal failure, trip to the hospital, etc. In other words, don't overdo it.

--B.G.--

Thanks for the update on your progress and gear selection. I really enjoy these type of reports - gets me enthusiastic to get out there and start training for some summer trips!

Dirk

Also, does anyone here take painkillers when doing ultra-type trips? ... It seems like popping a few ibuprofin on this trip might help get the job done.

I seriously question counting on drugs in any form, including OTC, to help get the job done.

The point is what you, with your own mind and body, can do -- not what you can be enhanced to do.

--MV

I agree with you to some extent, but it'd be easy to argue that Hammer Nutrition products or even energy bars are performance enhancers.

I've read of a couple of ultrarunners using painkillers on their big runs and was curious to see if it was standard practice. My 35 mile hike was pretty uncomfortable, but I made it without pain killers no problem. I was mostly just interested in seeing what other people do.

Nate, I've seen some ultrarunners doing some pretty crazy things in terms of medication, hydration, and nutrition. It's only a matter of time before some of that spreads into the UL backpacking community. Before long, we will have mandatory urine tests before we are allowed out on the trail.

Not.

--B.G.--

I'd bring some ibuprofen and use it for sleeping, not for keeping yourself going. When I was hiking the PCT it seemed to me that ibuprofen didn't even work unless I was laying down.

38 miles a day is a huge challenge. Good luck to you. And as far as not swimming a river, I think that's wise. I don't know what an FKP or whatever the acronym is, though.

When I hiked the PCT I did a few back-to-back 30 milers. It was not easy. My feet hurt mostly. There's just some point where training no longer matters. Your feet hurt and there's nothing you can do about it.

Anyway, 10 by 10:00, 20 by 2:00, 30 by 6:00 was how I did it.

Bringing some for sleeping makes sense. My legs and joints haven't hurt much while moving, but after the big mileage days I've done, they can be pretty sore. After the 35 mile day, I couldn't get them to stop cramping all night. That might have been due to poor nutrition and hydration, though.

FKT = Fastest Known Time, sorry for being unclear.

I think what I'd like to do is hike from 4 AM to 8 PM the first two days with a goal of 45 miles each day. The last day I'd start at 4 AM and aim for 26 miles by 2 PM, which would put me at the 58 hour mark. It'll be tough, but I think I can do that.

Just wanted to mention that ibuprofen "working" doesnt have to mean your pain is killed necessarily. Its anti-inflammatory effects can benefit your joints even if your muscles are still screaming. I doubt anyone would discredit a record because ibuprofen was used in a JMT speed record for example.

Now wether or not you want to take some No Doze to bump up the intensity is a different issue altogether.

How I managed my weekly miles was to determine how many per day to do, then shoot to always do more so that I chipped away at the last day. So aiming for two 45s and a 26 might work well, but you might suffer psychologically if you don't hit the 45 mile mark. Depends on how your mind works.

"I've put about 200 miles on my Inov-8 Roclite 315's and those are here to stay"

Pay close attention to your shoes. You want to be sure you've 116 miles left in them when it's time to start. That might mean getting into new pair about 50 miles before launch date, just to be sure they fit the same.

Take a close look at the lugs and the amount of covering they have left. Look at the heel counter to be sure they are still square.

Make sure the stitching is still solid on the uppers,and that the mesh isn't wearing through at the flex points. Pull a few laces out of the bottom web "eyelets" to look for hidden frays.

Maybe have a source lined up...just in case.

After the 35 mile day, I couldn't get them to stop cramping all night.

I do not know about you, and different people are different. For myself, cramping at night after a big exercise day is a sign I did not get enough electrolytes. So far, I find I can prevent it by addressing that -- whether that means more electrolyte drinks, or more salt in your food is up to you.

--MV

Nate, Wow you've come an amazingly long way. Pretty impressive what motivation can accomplish.

FKT
If you're serious, try and work out some kind of third party verification. pass a little card out with your email address, ask them to send off a quick note stating date, time, location, whatever else strikes them. IF you bring a camera, have others shoot you with someone else. If others take your picture, ask them to email you a copy, etc.
Crossing the Connecticutt River is a quandry, regarding unsupported and overall time. I don't have an answer. Would be nice if there was a rules committee but there isn't. Generally so far, the first FKT guy sort of sets the rules by the style he does it in. Others who follow are free to use his self imposed rules or go him one better.

Painkillers
Some ultra runners use them, many don't. Some use "no doze" to keep awake at night, many do not. Drug testing has not yet worked its way into the ultra trail scene as far as I know, so its up to you. If you want to be totally kosher, research what's allowed at the Tour de France and go from there.
Regarding use of painkillers simply to mask pain so you can inflict more pain ... remember pain is the bodies way of telling you to knock it off. You don't want to mask all pain or you could get yourself in trouble.

Injinji Socks
I wear the Coolmax version most of the time because I like the mini crew length best and I think the wool version only comes in Quarter length. But Coolmax is more delicate. I've worn holes in them in one day of long mileage (3 times) because I didn't want to stop and remove the sand that had accumulated in my shoes.
Just something to consider.

Nutrition
Perpetuum is great stuff, but practice with it before your big trip. It can be messy and slow if you don't have a good system worked out. Also, you don't have to mix it in the recommended consistancy listed on the container. You can make it thicker or thinner to fit your palate.
Do you take electrolytes during your long days?
Hammer Endurolytes work great.
The more you need to drink, the more elctrolyte replacements you should be taking also.

Tapering
make sure you Taper your training for At least a full week before your big trip. how much you taper depends on your conditioning and the intensity of your workouts. If you did your peak workout week 3 or 4 weeks before D-day, then dropped down some 2 weeks before, then dropped to half level (at least) the week before, you'd probably be primed to go.
Tapering involves decreasing both mileage AND intensity.

Best of luck
Art

Edited by asandh on 05/01/2010 20:22:15 MDT.

@ Greg -- Actually, I'm going to have to buy a new pair within the next week or two, I think. I love these shoes, but the tread seems to wear somewhat quickly. They'll be up to about 250 miles in two weeks time, and although they won't be completely destroyed by then, they won't be where I need them to be for the types of long hikes I'm doing right now. I think I'll probably save them and continue to use them on shorter runs and day hikes after I've attempted the speed hike.

Most likely, I'll probably have to buy yet another pair a week or two before the speed hike. It depends on how many miles I've put on this next pair, but if I'm near the 200 mark by the time the speed hike comes, it'll be worth getting a new pair and using those. Ugh. Lots of money.

Again, I won't be throwing those pairs out, I just don't want to use them for 30+ mile training hikes and for the big hike.

@ Bob -- I was assuming that my cramping was due to lack of electrolytes as well. I was honestly pretty stupid on that 35 mile hike, nutrition-wise. I woke up early in the morning and realized I had way less food than I thought I did. Since I wanted to be home before sunset, I just left and hit the trail with what I had -- 1500 calories in Clif Bars. I was rationing myself to about one Clif Bar every two hours and started to bonk pretty hard at around the 22-23 mile mark, but managed to keep going somehow. What really killed me was a 500 foot climb over a 1/2 mile at mile 32. That was tough.

I'm definitely being much more nutrition/electrolyte conscious now. I'm probably lucky I didn't get hurt on that one.

@ Art -

FKT - I've read about the business card method and plan to use that. I'm also going to do what Brett did on his JMT record hike and take video logs as I'm hiking. I really like that idea; it gives me a record of the trip and doesn't really waste any time.

My plan for the CT River is to try and barter passage across and just hope I can do it quickly since it'll be eating into my time. The trail crosses at a popular boat ramp (another reason why swimming would be dangerous), and on a Saturday in June, I should be able to get a ride pretty quickly if I'm flashing a $10 bill. It's only a 1/4 mile - maybe a bit less - to get across.

In my mind, since nothing is pre-arranged, it should allow the unsupported status to stand. Swimming here just seems stupid.

Painkillers - Again, I don't necessarily plan on using many. I take them very rarely as is, maybe once every couple of months. I was just curious if this is something lots of ultrarunners do. That said, it might not be a bad idea to pop a couple of ibuprofin before bed for the benefit to my joints, as others have mentioned.

Injinji - I used to be all about the quarter length, because I had this bad habit of knicking my ankles with the opposite foot. Having a sock over the ankle helped with that. I must have improved my form because this isn't a problem anymore, so I don't think the mini size will be an issue either. I already have a pair of Coolmax socks, so I'll start using them and watch how they wear. They're light enough that if I have to throw an extra pair in my pack for the trip, it'll probably be worth it.

Perpetuum - I'm planning to pick up one of those huge tubs of it in the next week or two. I'm planning to do at least 3 more 30+ mile days and hopefully a big overnight before the trip. There should be plenty of 20+ mile days in there as well. This should give me ample opportunity to get used to using it. I think what I'll do is use gatorade bottles for this trip. One for Perpetuum and one for water. I'll probably carry one Platypus bottle in my pack as well, as there are a couple of stretches where I'll need to carry more than one liter of water.

Tapering -- I was definitely planning on doing this at some level. The week before the big hike, I was thinking I'd limit any and all hikes to 3 or 4 miles. Enough to keep my joints and muscles in shape, but not enough to push them in any way. I'll give this some more thought and try to work out an actual plan.


Thanks everyone for your input. I'm now off to run a 12 mile trail race with 3800 feet of elevation gain in 85 degree heat and 72% humidity. Basically, I'm about to hate myself.

Edited by Knaight on 05/02/2010 04:53:58 MDT.

I used a Gatorade bottle for my Perpetuum first time I brought it to the Sierras.
The mouth is Not wide enough for easy use, and it was messy.
I'd strongly recommend a standard 21oz wide mouth screw top trail running bottle. Even though its a few grams heavier, the ease of use is worth it.

You could win back a few of those grams by picking a lighter weight water bottle than a Gatorade bottle. Maybe one with a smaller mouth so your not enouraged to guzzle as much water when you drink. Better to drink frequently in small amounts than a lot all at once.

Edited by asandh on 05/02/2010 08:52:01 MDT.

Pre-measure into a ZipLock. Scotchtape the ZipLock flaps shut.
Fill the water bottle about 1/3 full.
Tear off a big chunk of the corner of the ZipLock.
Add/shake, add/shake, , add water, add/shake
Top off with water, leaving a little headroom, shake.

It will take a little practice to minimize clumping.
If you have access to ice (like at a convenience store soda dispenser ), it will vastly improve the experience.

Try all three "flavors", although I find 'Unflavored' most tolerable.

Rock on Nate. It sounds like you are all set, just don't get hurt, keep it up, and execute and you'll be fine. When is the magic date?

Electrolyte tabs seem like a good idea in the hot and humid NE. Endurolytes don't have much good stuff per unit. S-caps are much better.

The two big ones are Sodium and Potassium.

A typical fit individual looses about 1 gram of sodium per liter of sweat. Two "00" (double ought) gelatin capsules, bought at the local health food store, filled by you at your dining room table with good old regular salt will provide a gram of usable sodium.

Buy ~50 caps, fill a bowl with salt, scoop with both halves, squeeze together, and put a days worth in snack size ziplocks that you will have easy and immediate access to.

For every liter of water that you consume, down two gelatin caps, +/-. I usually don't start until the 3rd or 4th liter. YMMV, and needs to be stress tested.

Bananas would provide plenty of potassium. I do not know loss rates. I just eat 2 or 3 a day. Somewhere there are numbers on "potassium per banana" that could be used for estimating stuff in capsules. Plus, the "Phood" you take might have plenty.

Don't let the electrolyte thing get out of hand. If you have had good pre-event nutrition, you'll do fine with just these two.

Edit: I see Perpetuum has 220 mg of sodium per serving, not a lot, but something to factor in.

Edit 2: Same goes for potato chips, etc.

Edited by greg23 on 05/02/2010 10:21:19 MDT.

You guys aren't kidding on electrolytes. I just had my first bad electrolyte crash today.

As I said, I had a race today. The Seven Sisters Trail Race in South Hadley, MA. It's 12 extremely tough miles with 3700-3800 feet of elevation gain. It's famous because there is a similar length race up Mt. Washington in NH with a fair bit more elevation gain where runners tend to make much better time. The footing here sucks.

Anyway, I've run the course before with some success. Not fast enough to be a contender, but fast enough to make me fairly happy. My best time was 3:02:06, which is actually a solid time on that course.

Today it reached 85 degrees and over 75% humidity. It was AWFUL. I actually ran it quite well for the first ten miles, staying just above the 4 MPH mark which was pretty much my goal. Since I have trouble eating gels while running and don't own a Hammer Gel flask or something similar, I just threw a couple of Clif Bars in my pack. I've done this before on long runs and it's never been an issue.

At 10 miles, I hit a WALL. I tripped on a rock, caught myself on a tree, but my leg cramped up like mad. I took a two minute break, then kept running. Every step was dangerous. I kept catching my toes on roots and rocks.

There was an aid station at 10.25 miles, so I sat down and drank some water. They unfortunately didn't have any salt tabs or electrolyte offerings. Apparently I was in such bad shape that the EMT there told me he was making an executive decision and was going to take me down the mountain on his ATV.

I bargained with him -- told him that I knew the course well and knew I could make it, and to just let me sit a few more minutes. I told him I'd be happy to rest until he felt okay with me going on. Apparently my confidence won him over and he was cool with that.

I ended up taking a 20 minute break. During that time a runner came by that was carrying some salt tabs. He gave me one and within five minutes I felt a million times better. I couldn't believe the difference it made. I told the EMT I was going to get going. He didn't love the idea but was okay with it.

I got up and walked the next .75 miles, then caught a second wind and ran the last mile pretty hard. I finished at approximately 3 hrs and 37 minutes, which would normally be disappointing. Honestly, considering what happened, I felt pretty good about it. It was also a great lesson for this upcoming thru-hike, where I'll likely experience some similar heat and humidity. I'll definitely be bringing along salt tabs or something similar.

Pretty crazy experience. I've done that run a few times and it has never taken so much out of me. I'm glad I learned my lesson the hard way before the big hike.

Nate,
Way to regroup, think, and hang in there. Another day of learning.

Regarding salt tablets - Thermotabs are the most common, but be aware that of tablet's 450 mg of Sodium Chloride, only 180 mg is sodium (40%). So you need about 5+ tablets to replace the 1 gram you lost in one liter of sweat.

I encourage you to read labels and do the math on your food as well as any "supplements" up for consideration. There is a lot of hype and folklore that won't hold up to even moderate scrutiny.

Good job on sticking with it Nate.
I'm running a trail race with a very similar profile to yours next Saturday: 13.1 miles; 3,300' gain but the weather should be a bit cooler.

Over the last ~year of running, I've started to train myself to get by with less water and food. I don't know what people's thoughts are on this, but it's working for me. I basically got tired of feeling I "needed" to carry tons of water and started drinking a lot prior to a run and carrying less (if any, depending on distance) during- gradually. I'm now able to run up to about 12 miles of trail in 75 degree weather without carrying food or water. This has certainly added to my freedom in the mountains- nothing better than only needing shorts and shoes.

I fully realize that at longer distances if one runs a deficit early you likely won't be able to make it up, so this is not a universal strategy. I've been there and learned the hard way. I remember coming home from a 15 mile trail run that was ~100 degrees...I intentionally didn't carry enough water (yes, crazy/stupid, I know) to see how far I could push it. I made it, but fried my brain a bit...I was literally slurring my speech when I got home and acting a bit loopy. I just felt super thirsty and fatigued- It was my wife that told me I was really a mess. I was oblivious.
But I learned what that felt like, so I guess it's beneficial...

But I have found that I've been able to physically and mentally adjust- comfortably- to going longer without food and water. I think that you can habituate your body to a certain level of food and water- great or small, and, with time, you'll adjust. Back in the day I'd feel panicked running 13 miles of trail without carrying at least 32 ounces, electrolytes, and some gel. I think I was training myself to rely too much on food and drink. Now I don't need anything at that distance.

I question whether this is a matter of increased pace and fitness: less time/exertion on the trail = needing less food and drink or if you can train to simply need less. Perhaps it's both.

I've got several more big hikes coming up, so I'll try a few different things. I'd like to stay away from refined sugars, so Gatorade isn't something I'm interested in. I also don't want to carry the weight of bananas. There are plenty of options out there, though, so I'll start picking some up and giving them a shot. Overall, I've heard good things about Endurolytes, but it seems a few people here have the opposite opinion.

Craig, I think your strategy is the right one. The race today was out and back, so at around the 5 mile mark, I started seeing the first few elite runners coming back the other way. The first 5 - 8 of them were shirtless and carried nothing.

I think a huge part of it is increased pace and fitness. These guys ran the trail in less than two hours, and I myself have done runs of a little over an hour with no water, and over two hours with no food.

I'm assuming by your screenname that you're straight edge, which I imagine also helps. I do enjoy my beer, but when I've had even one the night before a long run or hike, it seems to impact my performance. I've been cutting down a fair bit over the last couple of months.

I'd like to get to the point of being able to run that far without water; I'm just not there yet. I think my longest run without water was something like 4.5 miles, but my first trail run ever was last September, so I feel that I'm doing okay.

I will probably run this race next year since it's only a few miles from my house and is generally cooler on May 2nd. It'll be interesting to see how I do then.

For the upcoming thru-hike, though, I am definitely going to be conscious of my food, water, and electrolyte intake. I'm planning on doing 15-16 hours of hiking for the first two days, which will be tough if it's hot out.

Edited by Knaight on 05/02/2010 14:06:26 MDT.

Hardly straightedge! I am VERY well acquainted with beer and wine and the occasional bad whiskey binge...Just not the night before a long run or race! Aaaah...but cold beers after...

I think running w/o water certainly requires a little bit of planning ahead though- hydrate well the night before and prior to the run.

Obviously, not carrying food/water/electrolytes for real long distances (subjective!) and/or backpacking makes no sense.

But I know it's another common mistake of beginning runners (I did it): carrying too much water/food. I understand that hyponatremia is often as common as dehydration in many major marathons with a lot of beginners: too many overly worry about drinking and eating enough and overcompensate to the point of illness.

Ha, just made the straight edge assumption based on the x's around "noman".

I was a bit concerned about hyponatremia today, actually. When I sat down at the ten mile mark, I drank maybe a liter of water and then stopped, despite the fact that I was still thirsty. I figured if my heart rate went down enough I could finish the race and just get some salt and water afterward.

Once that guy came by with the salt tabs, I took one and then took some more water, confident that I was safe to hydrate myself a bit more.

I carried about two liters of water today and also drank some water at aid stations. I could have topped off my bladder at those stations, but I knew that'd take time, so that's why I carried so much. Honestly, I don't feel it was a mistake given my current level of fitness. I just wish I'd been okay in the electrolyte department, because I think I would have had a pretty awesome time, especially considering the weather!

But like I said before, I'm not upset. I learned a valuable lesson and did the right thing by taking a breather.

Buy ~50 caps, fill a bowl with salt,

Note that Morton's Lite salt has potassium in it. You could make a judicious mix of it with regular salt to get the Na / K proportion you want.

If you are drinking, consider adding a tolerable amount to your liquid -- that way you are taking it in more as needed than just a big burst (salt tab) at one time.

--MV

Edited by blean on 05/02/2010 15:23:09 MDT.

"Note that Morton's Lite salt has potassium in it. You could make a judicious mix of it with regular salt to get the Na / K proportion you want."

+1 1/4 tsp (1.4 grams) of Morton Lite Salt contains 290 mg of sodium and 350 mg of potassium. I add this to a 24 oz bottle of water and use it to dilute a bottle of Perpetuem mixed double strength by alternating swigs on the move. It has worked very well for me in eliminating cramps, especially on long hot ascents of trails on the east side of the Sierra. The Perpetuem contains quite a bit of calcium, and I get my magnesium from CalMag mineral supplement pills at either end of the day. You need all 4 electrolytes to avoid cramping and other problems.

"a lot of beginners: too many overly worry about drinking and eating enough and overcompensate to the point of illness."

Not to mention death. Another good reason for adding electrolytes to your water, IMO.

"Pre-measure into a ZipLock. Scotchtape the ZipLock flaps shut.
Fill the water bottle about 1/3 full.
Tear off a big chunk of the corner of the ZipLock.
Add/shake, add/shake, , add water, add/shake
Top off with water, leaving a little headroom, shake."

+1 works like a charm. With a bit of practice, you can do it with even narrower mouthed bottles. Just nip off a smaller piece of the Zip Loc baggie.

Edited by ouzel on 05/02/2010 17:58:20 MDT.

I've gotten by on a poor-woman's hydration drink made of diet lemonade mix and morton's lite salt.

"I've gotten by on a poor-woman's hydration drink made of diet lemonade mix and morton's lite salt."

What a great idea.

I was crewing at 100-mile race, and one elite runner paused at the 62-mile checkpoint while I watched him bark instructions to his crew.

"I want 50-50 flat Coke and water, with a pinch of salt."

That gave him the essentials of water, sugar, salt, and caffeine.

By the time they had changed his shoes, he had consumed 16 ounces of the stuff, and he ran off toward the sunset.

--B.G.--

Sometimes I'll take Trader Joe's Plantain Chips while hiking for the potassium and sodium. Nothing to mix and they actually taste good. You could crunch them up to make it faster to eat.

Here's a link to the nutrition facts (I'm just assuming it is correct, I don't have any here at my house to verify):

http://www.thedailyplate.com/nutrition-calories/food/trader-joes/roasted-plantain-chips

So I took my biggest training hike to date on Tuesday. I did 41 miles in just under 13 hours, which I felt pretty good about. Amazingly, I wasn't really tired at the end of it and my legs weren't sore at all. I credit this to more food, better hydration, and a regular intake of S-Caps for electrolytes. It was a completely different experience than the 35 mile hike I did a few weeks ago. Had it not been for my feet, I think I could have done 50 miles without a problem.

Unfortunately, around the 30 mile mark, I developed some pain on the outside of my right foot. It persisted throughout the rest of the hike, but I kept going because it seemed manageable. By the end of the hike, my left foot had similar pain and my left ankle was hurting a bit as well.

I woke up yesterday morning barely able to walk. I went to work, but it didn't get much better, so I took some Alleve. That made a pretty big difference, but I'm not big on pain killers so I stopped after the first dose. The pain came back - although less so - toward the end of the day.

This morning, I could still feel the pain, but it wasn't terrible so I thought I'd try and take a 3-5 mile hike. Within a quarter mile, the pain came back fairly strong, so I turned around and went home.

After some research, it seems I've developed Peroneal Tendonitis. Since there doesn't seem to be any swelling, I'm guessing I've got a mild case of it. Still, all treatment options say to rest for at least two to three weeks. This is going to kill my training program. The big hike is scheduled for June 26-28 and resting for two to three weeks means no more hiking for the rest of the month!

I've worked really hard to bring my fitness level to where it is, and I'm super frustrated right now. Has anyone else had any experience with this injury? Is it possible that my case is minor enough that I can get hiking again within a week or so? I feel like two to three weeks off will kill a lot of the progress I've made and I might not be able to get myself in good enough shape for the thru-hike. Then again, I've never dealt with time off in a training regimen, so maybe I'm over reacting.

Any advice?

For now, I'm going to immobilize it with an ace bandage and start taking ibuprofin a few times a day.

No advice, but I hiked from Northern California to Canada with Peroneal Tendonitis in one foot and sesamoiditis in the other. It's still with me.

Yeah, this is going to be a tough call. I'm purposely avoiding going to a doctor about it, which is probably stupid. I don't want a permanent injury, but I also don't want to give up on my goal right when it's starting to look like I can make it!

Nate,
Not good, mate. I had a similar "episode" and did go to my doc about it. I ignored it for a week or so, it got progressively worse, so I went to see him. He gave me the same advice you found - rest for 2-3 weeks - and absolutely warned me of the risk of permanent damage if I continued to push it. I decided to cancel my solo winter trip to the AZ trail because of it.

Having said that, I did rest it (at least didn't do any serious hiking!), and after about a month, was able to start walking with gear and gradually building up my foot strength again. I am very cautious about this now... if I even feel a twinge in feet or ankles, I slow down. If it starts to get painful, I'll stop and rest and perhaps do some light ankle stretches to make sure it isn't anything serious - you can feel it coming on, right? Anyway, the rest seems to have done the trick and I was perfectly OK doing 5 days on the AT (in the rain!) a couple of weeks ago.

FWIW, you really do need to be careful to avoid permanent damage. I'm not aware of any other solution besides rest and careful management of your hiking speed and intensity. Can you postpone your speed hiking trip by a month or so? If you can, you probably should. You're frustrated now, but just imagine if you were really unable to fast hike again... man, that would suck.

Just my 2cs. Good luck.

Peace, James.

I diagnosed myself with peroneal tendonitis when I had pain in the outside of my foot a few years ago. It turns out I had a stress fracture in a metatarsal. Hopefully you don't have that, but it's something to consider if you don't improve substantially soon.

(On the other hand, my current feeling is that it's actually better to have a bone injury than a tendon injury. Give a bone 6 weeks to heal, and you'll never have a recurrence. Tendon injuries can linger for years.)

Good luck with it.

Nate
is this pain on the outside of your foot/ankle right behind the ankle bone, a couple tendons there?
or is it lower down on the outside of your foot.

I developed the former last year but kept working out.
It took me 3-4 months AND a change of shoe models to recover completely but now I'm fine.

If you ice your ankle down very well immediatley after each workout it helps.

For me, I believe the injury was caused by excessive Supination due to wearing a shoe that was a bit too narrow for my wide feet. This created a tendency to stay on the outside edge of my feet too much as I ran, stressing the tendons.
I tend to be a supinator anyway.
So now I wear only shoes with a pronounced exterior post and Neutral Heel.

Anyway, if your issue is the first one described above, make sure your shoes are not pronation shoes (the kind that encourage your foot off the arch onto the outside edge of the foot).

Nate,
I also recall that your shoes are nearing the end of their lifespan. Have someone look at you from behind to check for a collapsed heel.



Inov-8 315's

Edited by greg23 on 05/13/2010 09:12:49 MDT.

@ Greg - I was actually just about to upload a picture of my Inov-8 315's with their badly collapsed heels. They look much like that shoe on the left. I just noticed how bad this was this morning. They've only got 260 miles on them, but they're definitely done. I'm sure the collapsed heel contributed to the injury. What I'm wondering is, is this a sign of overpronation? How do I correct that?

@ James - I made an appointment with my doctor for tomorrow morning. As much as I want to do this speed hike, if I'm unable to backpack due to pushing it with this injury, that's going to kill me.

I can't really change the date for the hike, unfortunately. My wife is due with our son at the beginning of August, which means there's a chance he could come in mid July. I obviously can't afford to be gone for three days at that point. We'll be gone the first week of July, and once our son is here, I just plain won't want to be gone for three days.

I suppose I might be up for trying again in late September, but I think I'll still just aim for late June. I'll just go into it a little less prepared than I wanted to be. Maybe through cross training I'll be able to keep my fitness up to some degree.

@ Scott - I'll ask the doctor about a possible bone injury tomorrow.

@ Art - The pain in my right foot is right along the base of the foot, on the outside. On the left foot, the pain isn't as bad, but it's noticeable both on the foot itself, as well as behind that spot on the ankle.

The shoes I use are Inov-8 Roclite 315's, and they seem to be a good width. As I mentioned above, though, they're beyond worn out at this point. I think I'll stick with that model, though, as I had a lot of success with them until now.

I wish I knew more about overpronation and supination and how to control and treat them. I'll see if the doctor has anything to say.

Has anyone ever used Arnicare gel for this type of injury? A client of mine went and bought some for me today after I mentioned what happened. He said it's excellent for sports injuries, but the container only mentions muscle injuries, not tendons.

thanks everyone!

-Nate

Nate,
Yes I pronate, but what you see there is a foot "standing on a slope". When I am barefoot I'm pretty square.



I like arnica at lot. I completely separated a clavicle, took arnica orally, 6 "pellets" 3x a day, and had no bruising or swelling. (Pain on the other hand....) I find it to be very helpful for any major issue. Naproxen is my second drug of choice.

All that said, seek professional help, from someone ultra-sports oriented, looking to get you back out there as soon as reasonably possible. (A run-of-the-mill doc, just can't empathize.)

Last, the words you may not want to hear: You have thousands of miles left, IF you take care of this issue, even at the expense of this one effort this one year. You will kick yourself forever if you screw up your feet.

Edit: Take your shoes with you when you to the doc. Knock the mud off, but don't clean them up. They can be fairly informative about what is or isn't happening.

Edited by greg23 on 05/13/2010 15:15:51 MDT.

Nate, I have no experience with your specific symptoms, so I can't offer advice on that.

I can offer advice on overuse injuries, and my advice is to look at the long term. It seems like this desire to do big days and big trips will be with you for a long time. You've made a huge leap in a short time. Take some rest, try to be reasonable, and think about the long view. Right now you're training muscles, tendons, ligaments, and bones to take long walks. If you do it right, 2-3 years from now you'll have a fundamentally different physiology that will be much more amenable to ambitious trips. Overuse injuries can set that back years if you're stubborn. I was with IT band troubles years ago, and it was an 18 month struggle because I wouldn't rest for long enough.

But being in your shoes right now still sucks. You have my sympathies!

You may be able to still do your trip, or an abriveated version. Or heal fully and do it in winter!

Thanks for the sympathy and advice, guys. My current strategy is to not get my hopes up. However, since it seems like my injury might be on the milder side, I'm going to get whatever advice I can and do what it takes to keep my fitness up, just in case the chance to do my trip develops.

I found out that squats cause me zero pain in the affected areas, so I can use those to keep my legs and knees strong. I can do lots of stretching without an issue. I wouldn't be surprised if I can start doing some cycling in a week or so, since it's fairly static on the ankles and feet as compared to trail running and hiking. If I can't do that, I might consider joining a gym for a month so I can get in my cardio through swimming.

If I can get out on the trail within three or four weeks, I think I'll be able to work back up to 100% and reach my goal. I was hoping to be further along than where I am right now fitness-wise, but I think I'm fit enough to make it in my current state. This just means it'll take a bit more effort.

I'd really hate to have to put this trip off, but there really isn't any sense in doing severe and possibly permanent damage to myself for the sake of a speed hike.

Well, I'm pretty much healed up at this point. Not so bad, I guess. I've taken three short runs (2 miles or less) over the last three days, all on roads and sidewalks. No pain, so I think I'm ready to start hitting the trail and getting some real miles in. I'm just going to make sure to do a lot more stretching and watch the wear and tear on my shoes.

I've got exactly four weeks before the trip, which is much less than I'd like, but I think I can make it work. 40 miles this coming week, thirty miles the next, twenty the next, and ten on the last week should keep me fit enough to make the trek. My most recent goal of doing the whole thing in under 58 hours might be a bit of a long shot with this set back, but I'm fairly sure I can do it in less than three days as long as the tendonitis doesn't come back. And of course, I'll go for the 58 hours anyway.

Just in case anyone's interested, here's how I got better:

-Went to the doctor's and picked up a prescription anti-inflammatory drug.
-Stayed off my feet as much as possible for two weeks and tried to remember to stretch and ice regularly.
-Got myself a therapeutic massage. This was my first ever and I was blown away by how painful it was.
-Used Arnicare gel on all of my leg muscles.

The massage was probably the most beneficial thing I did. I went for it about a week after the injury and the difference afterward was night and day. I was super tempted to go for a run right then and there, but I'm glad I didn't. I was really skeptical as to whether it could help, but I'm glad I went. I couldn't believe how knotted up all of my muscles were. Hurt like crazy!

I'm taking the hike June 26-28. I'm thinking I might do a blog or set up a twitter account to keep some family and friends updated when I'm on the trail. If anyone here is interested, I can post the address in this thread.

Glad you're feeling better. Now you have a better idea of what trouble looks/feels like, and keep out of it.

I'm highly recommend investing in a foam roller. Essential self-massage tool for recovery and injury prevention. It lets you bring the pain all on your own!

I'd love to see your updates if you put them online. I'm going to do a M-M thru-hike in October if work allows (I'll do it in 6-7 days, not 3!). I've done from the CT border to Mt. Grace in sections so far.

Do you know about the missing blazes in sections 13-14? I backpacked that area a couple of months ago, and it was a bit of a pain. PM me if you want details.

Hey Scott,

Funny you should mention sections 13 and 14. Those were two of the sections I did on the 41 miler where I injured myself, and they were a chore! My time would have been much better if it hadn't been for losing my way on section 13 and being forced to bushwhack to a road to continue. I did the hike as an out and back, so I managed to find the trail on the way back and figure it out. I'm glad I did this, as it'd be a huge waste of time on my thru-hike.

I was speaking with Pat Fletcher about this today, actually. He's the chair of the M&M Trail committee I believe and unfortunately doesn't have much in the way of updates right now. They're trying to relocate that part of the trail to the Quabbin, but they're meeting a lot of resistance from locals. He said that for my thru-hike I should definitely stick to the old trail. Unfortunately, it is pretty hard to follow in those sections and there is even some posting on section 13.

For the record, I did sections 8 - 12 in March and found a couple of slightly difficult to follow bits in sections 10 and 11 as well. Not nearly as bad as 13 or 14, though.

6 - 7 days sounds like a great amount of time for the M&M. I'm thinking about doing a 7 - 10 day thru-hike of this trail next summer. It's a beautiful trail and I'd like to do it at a speed where I can appreciate it. I tend to miss a lot when I'm moving at a constant pace of 3.5 - 4 mph.

Let me know if you need a ferry across the CT River when you do your hike. I live a half mile from the trail on Mt. Tom and about two miles from the river. I'd be happy to help you out. Might even hike a few miles with you if I can afford the time and you won't mind the company. That section of trail never gets old to me.

I don't understand why they don't just reroute the M&M trail onto the Robert Frost Trail from Pratt's Corner Road to Ruggles Pond. That would replace a pretty dull M-M section with the Bull Hill-Mount Toby section of the RF, which has nice forests and the best view in the Valley imho.

BTW, in April, it looked to me like the posting on section 13 was just off the trail, not actually on it.

Thanks for the offer on the shuttle. I can make the same offer for you--I live in Noho, and I could swing you across the river on your hike. It would suck to lose time waiting for a ride on a speed hike (though if it's a nice weekend day, you probably won't have much trouble).

A better view than the one from Mt. Tom? Blasphemy! Either way, hopefully they'll manage to reroute the trail somewhere soon in a place that'll stick. It's pretty cool that it's got National Scenic Trail designation now; it's a great opportunity for hiking in the Valley. I believe they weren't allowed to reroute it onto the Robert Frost trail because landowners didn't want a government sponsored trail on their land.

You may be right about the posting, but I was happy to get out of that section either way.

Thanks for the offer with the river. I'm actually going to try and do an unsupported "record attempt", though, so I feel like having a pre-arranged shuttle would mess with that. I don't think I'll have much trouble bartering my way across because that boat ramp has been packed for the last month or so. I live in Easthampton (we're practically neighbors!) and drive by it every day on the way to work.

Thanks again, though, much appreciated.

"I'm highly recommend investing in a foam roller. Essential self-massage tool for recovery and injury prevention. It lets you bring the pain all on your own!"

+1 It builds character, too.

Well, I wouldn't say I'm back up to 100%, but I'm still going to go for it. I did set up a twitter account so that I can send updates from the trail, if anyone would like to follow my progress. http://twitter.com/MM_Challenge

Quick recap: The hike is 116 miles from the CT/MA state border to Mt. Monadnock in New Hampshire. I'm leaving at 4 AM on Saturday the 26th and am aiming to finish before 2 PM on Monday, the 28th. That'll put me at 58 hours, which is exactly 2 MPH including sleep breaks. To my knowledge, this will be the fastest known time for the trail. My schedule actually has me finishing at 9 AM on Monday, but that's pretty much a best case scenario that assumes I'll hit zero snags, avoid getting lost, and maintain 3 MPH the entire time that I'm walking.

My tendinitis has been gone for a while now, but I am concerned it'll flare back up. I have my Dr.'s okay to take some prescription NSAIDs with me and pop a couple of those if I need to.

My training this month has been pretty low. I've felt the need to take it easy, but the flip side of that is that my fitness level has dropped a bit. Not a ton, but it is noticeable. I've only hiked/run 34 miles since June 1st, and it shows a bit in the times I get on my runs.

Weather looks like it'll be pretty warm, but bearable. Saturday's high is 79, Sunday's is 80, and Monday's is 83. Night time lows are in the mid 60's, so sleeping might actually be a bit uncomfortable. I'm taking my Sierra Sniveler which is a 20 degree quilt, but kind of need to stay under it to keep out of the mosquitos' reach. I'm thinking if it gets too hot to get any rest, I'll just wrap myself up in my tarp instead.

Base weight should be right around 7 lbs. Food will be similar, as I'm packing a lot of calories. I've written out a schedule that includes where I can stop for water so that I only have to carry more than a liter in a couple of short sections.

I honestly have no idea if I'll make it. My fitness level seems good enough, but my ankles have me a bit freaked out. We'll see how it goes!

Nate
Best of Luck !
Better to be slightly under trained and healthy, so I wouldn't worry about your last 3 weeks of light training.
Just don't start out like a ball of fire ... give your ankle a few miles to warm up.
I'm sure you'll do Great.
and ... what ever time you get, you'll set a record, haha.

Have a great hike! I'm going to PM you my phone number in case you get stuck on our side of the Connecticut River. I know you said you wanted to do it unsupported, but long waits to get a ride can really suck, especially on a speed hike.

I'm still planning on an October M-M thru-hike...can't wait.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

Thought I'd post my gear list and schedule as well, if anyone's interested in those:

GEAR LIST


PACK
Golite Jam2 - 22.6
Trash compactor bag liner - 2.6
Quart Ziplocs (3) 0.51
Gallon Ziplocs (2) 0.84
Opsak 1.48

SHELTER
ID Siltarp 6.7
Spectra cord 0.3
Stakes 1.8
Polycryo Groundcloth 1.8

SLEEPING
Sleeping Pad 2
JRB Sierra Sniveller 24

CLOTHING
Injinji Socks 1.6
Arc'teryx 100 wt Fleece 9.3

RAINGEAR
Golite Ether 4.6

HYDRATION

Gatorade bottles (1) 1.5
Platypus 0.9
Micropur tabs 0.97
Salt pills
NSAIDs

OTHER

Headlamp 1.99
First aid / repair kit 3.53
M&M book 3.27
Camera 8.83
Cell phone 4.4
ID, credit card, cash 0.5
Watch 1.5
Leatherman Micra 1.85
Compass / Whistle 1.4
Bandana 0.58
Bodyglide 1.16
Bug spray 1.51
Sunblock 2.83
Headnet 1.09

Total base weight 117.94oz 7.37lbs

Food 7.3 lbs

Water (average 1 liter) 2.2 lbs

Total - 16.87 lbs

I'm starting out heavier than I'd like, but it's not terrible and will be a fair bit lighter by day two.

Schedule:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ApuRH8H0SvDXdDd1UVBPWllGUnNKZ3pKVHJrWTdfcVE&hl=en&authkey=CMPMz9AM

Edited by Knaight on 06/24/2010 21:26:47 MDT.

Well, I didn't make it. I think I might have had I not been injured a month and a half ago and forced to halt my training routine, but as it was, my body couldn't handle it. Despite steady hydration and electrolyte intake, my legs started cramping pretty bad at around 17 miles.

Between the heat and exertion, I became exhausted at around 30 miles and even slightly delirious. I started to get pretty bad cold sweats and feel flu-like. I sat down at the end of the next section, at 32.5 miles. After an hour, I still felt extremely sick and my legs hadn't improved. The balls of my feet were also in pretty serious pain since I hadn't been doing enough training recently to keep them "tough". Finally, the tendinitis was just starting to come back, and I didn't want to turn it into a permanent injury.

I was way behind schedule at that point and the last six miles were tough, with 1900 feet of elevation gain, and they had taken me about 3.5 hours. It was apparent that the attempt was blown, so I called it.

I'm frustrated I didn't make it, but my spirits are actually pretty high overall. I knew that this was a possibility, so it is what it is. I still had a great adventure, in both my training and the actual attempt, and I'm in what's by far the best shape of my life as a result of it.

Not sure I'll attempt this or anything like it again as I have a son that'll be here in a month, but I'll definitely keep up the trail running and hiking. It's become a big part of me. Thanks for everyone's help and insight over the last few months!

Edited by Knaight on 06/27/2010 12:42:34 MDT.

Nate,
Too bad you fell a bit short but the good news is there is always a next time. Sounds like you hit the wall. How many calories did you consume and when? My last couple of long hikes (40+) I have targeting 250-300/hr and I have been able to avoid "hitting the wall." The other thing that I normally do is take a couple of advils every few hours and I think that helps considerable in keeping inflammation at bay. I know there was a debate on whether to advil or not. Where did you end up coming out on the advil?

Edited by gg-man on 06/27/2010 13:33:03 MDT.

I did take some prescription NSAID's with me, but didn't end up taking any because the issue with my legs was less inflammation and more cramping.

My intake of food and electrolytes should have been plenty. I was consuming about 200-250 calories per hour and taking electrolytes about every half hour during the hottest part of the day.

I honestly think the issue was that I just wasn't fit enough. A month and a half ago I did 41 miles with practically zero fatigue. The only issue that day was that I developed tendinitis in my ankles, which I'm pretty sure was due to worn out shoes. I think my level of fitness deteriorated enough in that time that I simply couldn't handle the miles.

Also, the last 12 miles gained about 3500 feet in elevation and consisted of pretty tough terrain. I did most of those during the major heat of the day, so I'm sure that added to the issue.

Like I said, it is what it is. I knew going in that this was a possibility. I'm less upset about it than I expected I would be. I guess I still feel like I got a lot out of the experience, so I'm not bumming out about it too much.

"My intake of food and electrolytes should have been plenty. I was consuming about 200-250 calories per hour and taking electrolytes about every half hour during the hottest part of the day."

Which electrolytes specically? Were you taking just sodium and potassium, or were you including calcium and magnesium as well? Most electrolyte mixes are light on calcium and magnesium, and a shortage of either can cause cramping.

After four days on the CT, (33 miles first day, 27 the second, 31 on the third), over Kenosha Pass and Georgia Pass. I felt great: fit, had my systems dialed, positive attitude... unfortunately my feet were not on the same page as the rest of my body. I trained pretty hard for this trip - the goal being a sub 20 day thru-hike of the CT. I logged lots of miles trail-running on steep rocky trails and using the same shoes/socks as I would on the CT. I also logged several "big" days alpine climbing in RMNP - carrying a heavy pack over rough terrain on long approaches, spending 12+ hours moving steadily...

My pack for the CT was pretty light with a six pound base-weight and 23 pounds total-weight (most of that weight being food that I would consume at a steady rate, thus lightening my load noticably day to day. I've used the same trail-runners - older model Montrail Hardrocks - for a couple of years now and have enjoyed blisterless feet. I have in the past struggled with heel blisters, but these shoes totally solved that problem and I haven't had any issue with my toes prior to this trip. I even opened a brand new pair for the CT, breaking them in pain free the weeks prior.

I'm pretty bummed! I felt full of juice coming over the divide, my legs strong... But I guess we are only as strong as our weekest link. Now I re-plan and re-group, maybe try again?

Edited by distantfellow on 07/01/2010 08:43:32 MDT.

Kevin,
You are in serious need of some Lueko Tape.
Just pre-tape and you won't have these problems anymore.

Kevin
do you use Injini Toe socks ?
I swear by them to help prevent what I see in your photos.

I'm guessing that the weather was hot. I switched a year ago from normal lightweight wool hiking socks to very lightweight Wrightsocks. My goal is to keep my feet as cool as possible which cuts down on blisters. The Wrightsocks are double layer also which is supposed to reduce friction to your feet by having the two layers slide relative to each other. This combined with powder every few hours and my Solomon XA Pros and blisters are virtually eliminated for daily mileage approaching 50. For the infrequent hotspot you might also try some of the liquid bandage products.

Big thing is to make sure the toe box is large enough, especially on downhills. I recently did a hike and wore some wool socks that are a tiny bit thicker than normal, trying to compensate for an injury to the ball of one of my feet. I just wanted a little more cushion. On a long downhill hike I got the same blisters on both of my longest toes. Also it was hot weather. Never had that problem with my shoes (XA Pros).

I often get hotspots (pre-blisters) on longer hikes but the only treatment I know about is moleskin.

Can you be specific about what powder you use? (I do have warm feet that perspire and it makes blisters more likely)

Can you also explain what this liquid bandage thing is about? How exactly does it help compared to usual bandage?

(I wear North Face Cushioned Running Quarter Socks (80% Coolmax polyester, 19% nylon) in a non-Gore Tex version of the North Face Hedgehog trail shoes.. really breathable and very thin top mesh layer.)

The product I take is call new skin. It smells just like clear fingernail polish and very likely is similiar. Ideally you would paint it on a hot spot prior to getting a blister. My experience has been that it will last several hours even when it gets wet. The biggest advantage I see is that it won't fall off like a normal bandage and it you can put it places that would be difficult to bandage or tape.

As far as powder, I use two different kinds depending on trip. The best for me is any medicated powder that will also keep away athlete's foot.

Just like half of the other hikers here, I have had hot spots on my feet. About once every five years, I get a full blister. I'm not sure that I understand exactly what causes a hot spot. Is it from friction, or is it more from heat exposure?

Back in my high school track days, they made us fix up our feet before we did any long runs. First of all, we applied rubbing alcohol to the foot skin in any places where blisters might form. We were told that it caused the skin to toughen if it was applied every day for a couple of weeks. Then, right before the long run, we painted the same skin places with Tincture of Benzoin, which stains the skin somewhat tan or brown. We were told that it also toughened the skin, but it also prepared the skin so that tape would stick better. Maybe all of that is old school wisdom now, but it worked for us back then during the Taft Administration.

--B.G.--

Thanks for the tips everyone. I'm determined to heal up and hop back on the trail. I'm looking into a new pair of shoes with a roomier toe-box and will check out some of the other blister prevention products mentioned. My feet are destroyed! You should have seen me limping those last 12 miles of segment 6 into Breck, b-lining it up mainstreet for the Brewery - that put a little pep in my step, or limp. I think I was attempting to compensate for the pain in my toes by weighting my heels more and now they're swollen and tender. Like I mentioned before, the 30 miles a day felt really reasonable to me in terms of fitness, but when I get back on the trail - hopefully in a couple of weeks - I plan on starting off with several 20 mile days in hopes of toughening up my feet a bit, before pushing the 30s - and maybe a couple of 40s? Hiking far fast in beautiful country is exhilerating! I'm also going to change up my gear list a little to include a stove - possilby a BushBuddy or little soda-can alcohol stove... maybe even bring some water-colors or a book along. At least take it slow and easy the first few days, relax a little, then ditch the weight and cruise when my feet seem ready.

Edited by distantfellow on 07/01/2010 14:22:57 MDT.