in terms of gross generalities, and in particular as related to backpacking fun, Goretex=PTFE=Teflon. GTX is basically thin teflon, a laminate. Not a spray-on, or a coating, etc... I have seen "Teflon" chain lube for bikes in the past, but have no idea how that stuff works. (Teflon is used for tons o' stuff, even non-glare coatings on optics/glasses.) Most DWRs used on backpacking fabrics though are not Teflon. The reason I make this distinction here is that in the case of shelters, any "teflon" would likely be the goretex of a canopy, which provides the primary waterproof/breathable layer. The DWR is independent of the primary waterproof layer/laminate/coating.

Hi Brad

> GTX is basically thin teflon, a laminate.
Well ... not 100%. Actually, the waterproof membrane in Gore-Tex fabric is PolyUrethane (PU).

It's a long story, but in brief Gore found that the Teflon in V1 got dirty and wetted out in the field, so these days in V2 they use the Teflon layer just as a smooth base for a very thin layer of PU coating - thinner than would work on plain fabric.

> The DWR is independent of the primary waterproof layer/laminate/coating.
Absolutely! In fact, I reckon the DWR is as important as the coating - in the field.

Cheers

I wrote > Roger, you want to make it clear that DWR=Teflon.

Roger wrote > Definitely not in this case. The good DWRs are mainly fluorocarbon (not silicone).

Roger, Teflon is Poly Tetra Fluoro Ethylene, or PTFE, and it consists solely of carbon and fluorine. I think you contradicted yourself. This is chemically similar to the stuff that is in DWR fabric treatment.
--B.G.--

Alright guys so I'm brinking it back to the original topic.

After much investigation, reading, and suggestions I've decided that I'm not ready to fully jump into the ultralight world. That being said I still want to carry less that what I currently have. I'm not ready to part with double wall tents yet that offer better protection.

What does everyone think of the Hubba, Hubba HP, Copper Spur, Fly Creek, Scarp? How does the hubba and the hubba hp compare and which one would be better for New England?

Thanks

The Fly Creek comes in a 2-person or a 1-person version. I'm not tall, so I got the 1-person version. However, if I were any taller, the 1-person version wouldn't make it. It certainly has plenty of inner netting.

--B.G.--

I agree with Roger's caution. I've frequently gone to bed in/under a floorless shelter (teepee/tarp) only to find the underside soggy from condensation. This most commonly happens on cold, still nights and has no regard for what material the shelter is made from.

I find a steep-walled shelter typically directs the water away from me, while a flat one can drip on me directly. Of course, knocking into it sends down a shower no matter what shape it is!

Cheers,

Rick

Roger wrote:

"Let's look at the meteorological conditions likely in such a case. An abrupt storm is often preceded by warm humid air, while the rain itself comes from a cold front over the top at a much lower temperature. This means that the wet soil and atmosphere under your tarp was warm and moist, while the cold rain chilled the tarp down fairly significantly. To make things worse, the ground sheltered by your tarp stayed warm since it didn't get hit by the cold rain. It was slightly damp from the little bit of rain before you got your tarp up."

"Under these conditions the amount of evaporation from the ground and condensation on the underside of the tarp can be astonishingly high - enough to function very well as a water collection device. This method has been used to get drinking water in some parts of the world (eg deserts)."

Hi Roger-
Yes, I'm aware of the V1 problems... but the GTX is still the "Teflon" base, topped w/the PU coat. Too bad they couldn't figure out how to make the material oleophobic like eVent did... V2 necessitating moisture to actually condense and pass through as water rather than water vapor thru the PU part of the layer...

I think the DWR is as important as the coating in terms of breathability... a saturated shell won't "take on" extra moisture so well, and breathability suffers. Breathability of the WPB is pretty dependent on a good DWR, but the actual waterproofness of the GTX/WPB layer is not affected by the DWR. You might get more wet because a jacket doesn't breathe as well, but you're not going to have a catastrophic failure of the WPB layer if the DWR's worn off.

Adam, of the tents you mention I really like the Copper Spur. Great tent, huge doors, covered well by fly, lotsa space for little weight. Between the Hubba and HP, you pay an extra $100 for the HP and gain a solid-ish nylon interior, reinforced guy-out points on the fly, and save 3 ounces. The 2-P version adds vents on the ends of the fly. The solid inner (a couple of non-closable mesh vents in the top of the canopy) better for colder weather, blowing snow/sand... but also somewhat less breathable than the mesh of the standard version. If you're doing normal 3-season stuff, I'd just get the standard Hubba (betwixt that and the HP).

Brad,

Josh Wagner is selling a Big Agnes Fly Creek 1 on this forum.

FS/WTT big agnes fly creek UL 1 on 01/16/2010 12:15:56 MST

I have a Big Agnes SL1 and I love it because it is roomy and it really holds up in the rain. The Fly Creek 1 is basically the same tent 4 inches less in length and 1 inch narrower. I am going to get one when my SL1 wears out.

Hi Bob

> Teflon is Poly Tetra Fluoro Ethylene, or PTFE, and it consists solely of carbon
> and fluorine. I think you contradicted yourself. This is chemically similar
> to the stuff that is in DWR fabric treatment.
Ahhh... that's a bit like saying glucose is chemically similar to methyl alcohol or diesel fuel: all three are hydrocarbons.

Cheers

Adam,
> "What does everyone think of the Hubba ...?"

Have some vicarious experience with the Hubba. When they first came out several years ago, bought one for a friend who needed something more reliable for heavy thunderstorms in New England. (We got wiped out on a high, exposed place called "Bulldozer Flats" on the Cohos Trail in NH, and had to waste an extra day just drying out). Have since made her a set a carbon poles that took off about 6 oz., and am working on a silnylon fly that will take off at least another 6 oz. Also, may make a pole set of Easton .344" O.D. poles that will still be several ounces lighter than the DAC featherweights that come with the tent, but stronger than the carbon. She has been very satisfied with the tent, and advises that it has been the one tent to keep her dry in storms, while providing good headroom. The biggest drawback is the floor width, 26", which would be too confining for me, especially with my 2 shelties, who are small, but do take up space. The length is not much over seven feet either, which can be confining for a six+ footer. With the modifications, the tent will be no heavier than the Fly Creek, and provide much more headroom. Unfortunately, the other Hubba, the HP is not much of an improvement in weight, with the window, and the addition of a partly DWR treated fabric interior to make it more weatherproof (The Hubba has an all netting inner). Note that in a gale, the Hubbas need secure side guys, as while freestanding, their design does not have a lot of lateral (side-to-side) stability. There are guy loops for this on the Hubba fly.
The Hubba is a great design, but it begs for a crossing front-to-back pole like the Akto or the new Tarptents, which would make it truly awesome. Only around seven additional feet of pole length would do it.
Hope this is helpful.
Sam

Guys thanks for all the input, I feel my search is much closer to an end now. Hell, I learned things about fabrics I had no idea where even issues. However I am still a bit confused and unsure about some tent fabrics. The Copper Spur and Fly Creek both use a 1200mm coated silnylon fly and floor. I've seen and read reviews raising their concerns for the weatherproofness of this fabric. Also I have seen these tens and have been able to see through the fabric. I am concerned with their ability to keep water out and resist abuse. So are their floors actually waterproof or just water resistant and how durable are they? I feel if I touched the fabric I could tear it. How does BA fabric compare to the 10000mm coated nylon floor of the Hubba? The Hubba has a way more zero's (a little more than 8 times as much coating!!!) how significant are these factors ( nylon vs silnylon, denier value, and pu coating) in determining waterproofness??

Right now I'm thinking heavilt about the Hubba (seems to be more storm worthy) and the Copper Spur (better living quaters). So anyone with experience with either, especially both, any input would be MUCH appreciated! But still the Scarp keeps coming back (love the lightweight but have the most concerns out of the bunch for fabric weatherproofness).

PLEASE! someone make a convincing argument for the best 3-season New England tent for me!

Thanks again
Adam

Edited by aducomb on 01/26/2010 20:33:58 MST.

In general: Silnylon is waterproof enough for rain, but not for keeping you dry while kneeling (or sometimes even sitting) on wet ground since the extra pressure forces the water through the fabric. Site selection, or groundcloth (a piece of 1-2mm thick plastic or polycro (window insulation film), or a sleeping bag cover (light bivy) with silnylon bottom will fix that).

Also, silnylon is suprising tear resistant, but not very abrasion resistant. Eurathane coated is waterproof enough to kneel on, and much more abrasion resistant, but twice as heavy. Sil works great for tarps & tent flys & OK for bottoms if you camp on pine needles or leaves.

Some people say big rain drops falling from great heights, or being driven by high winds can penetrate silnylon a little & cause a "mist" to come through. Most people think it's really condensation on the inside being shaken loose by the rain hitting the fabric though. Site selection helps with this too (under the canopy of big trees, next to a windbreak, etc). It won't be a problem if you use a double wall tent. If water shakes off the fly, it will roll down the outside of the mesh. Downside is 1.5-2 times more weight than a single wall tent...

ps: I like my Sierra Designs Lightning better than the MSR Hubba. Easier set-up, much wider, very stable in side winds, solid at the bottom (no wind-blown rain issues) - but it's slightly shorter (issues for 6ft+ folks), and the door on the fly of the Hubba is easier to get in/out though.

"PLEASE! someone make a convincing argument for the best 3-season New England tent for me!"

I'd actually suggest a hammock. Given the plethora of rocks and roots in New England, a hammock is often the best way to get a decent night's sleep, because finding a spot of level ground is often a challenge.

My current favorite hammock is the Warbonnet Black Bird. Very well made, and unusually comfortable. Under a good tarp (like the MLD Hex Tarp), it's heaven.

Don, unfortunatley I'm a belly sleeper and thats really uncomfotable in a hammock. The girlfriend loves her hammock but I just cant do them.