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Groupthink at camp MYOG..
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En Deizeler
(gimpslayer) - F
Groupthink at camp MYOG.. on 01/13/2010 11:16:28 MST Print View

You know what I see when i browse these forums?

Lots of good help, yes, but also, lots of GROUPTHINK.

I challenge you to first try your own solution before beseeching the masses for theirs.

Leave the comfort of the known remedy and perhaps you'll create the next big thing.

Just because there is a plan for the G4, this doesn't mean you should copy it. Make your own bag. See what happens. Work your own problems. Return and spread what you've discovered. In this way you'll advance yourself and others.

Oh but the G4 is good for newbs, you say, or that the shire tarptent is a good place to start. Wrong, Mr. Jones. Failing is an integral process of discovery and creation. It is through failing that we base new ideas upon.

So before your next MYOG session. Don't come here. JUST DO IT YOURSELF. Then please come share! Our community will grow in this way. And trust me, you'll have more fun.

Now, Get out there and MAKE YOUR OWN GEAR for the upcoming season, then come back and share it! Good luck!

I hope that you've read the above with the sincerity with which it was written.



Sometimes, late at night, I sit and cry thinking of all the great ideas which has been missed, because we are lazy and we follow in the footsteps of those before us.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Groupthink at camp MYOG.. on 01/13/2010 11:26:07 MST Print View

When to we get to see your gear? Since we are all missing it :)

-Tim

En Deizeler
(gimpslayer) - F
Indeed! on 01/13/2010 11:37:10 MST Print View

You are INDEED missing out!

My friends kindly refer to my pack as The Garbage Can.

In particular, You'll love the way the bottom got sewn on. it's ridik. Stay tuned, I'll get pics up eventually.


I stick by my challenge though. I encourage you all to think for yourself and tackle issues and not weakly run for help at the first whiff of trouble.


Which is what I did at first. Then i got smart.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Indeed! on 01/13/2010 11:44:38 MST Print View

I agree, yet disagree. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel. However, that doesn't mean you must always do what has been done (cuben quilts as an example) but there is no reason that you shouldn't let others inpsire you and give you ideas. Bill F. has done a lot with cuben and when he made his cuben/XP topbag that was the inspiration for Steven and I to make the Cuben down quilt. I just think it is total BS for you to tell others what they should do. You admit that your pack is "ridik" so why not let others be part of the process and help you make gear you can be proud of.

Also this should be in the MYOG section of the forum

-Tim

Edited by MarshLaw303 on 01/13/2010 11:45:45 MST.

John Donewar
(Newton) - MLife

Locale: Southeastern Louisiana
Re: "Groupthink at camp MYOG.." on 01/13/2010 11:44:39 MST Print View

En,

Bring on the pictures. Show us what you've got.

Party On ! 2010

Newton

Edited by Newton on 01/13/2010 11:52:06 MST.

En Deizeler
(gimpslayer) - F
Better mousetraps on 01/13/2010 11:53:19 MST Print View

Not an MYOG thread. Nobody goes there. this is about Groupthink in regards to all universification of "approved" UL gear, g4, jam, cardera, etc etc.


Reinventing the wheel, I was waiting for somebody to say that.

There are always improvements and breakthroughs. None of which would ever happen if people continually copied each other. One day the mousetrap will be built better.. but not by you.

Those who are creating aren't copying. You gimp your own creative juices by copying. I advocate that you try it yourself first. And I stand by it that you should do projects in this fashion. It is not "BS". It is learning through experience. Certainly there are exceptions, but a curious mind will strive to create independently, and in that way lies new ideas.

Tim Marshall
(MarshLaw303) - MLife

Locale: Minnesota
Re: Better mousetraps on 01/13/2010 12:13:19 MST Print View

i am curious about what totally new ideas are really left when it comes to packs and quilts/bags. Everything is always an adaptation of another idea. I am not saying that people shouldn't have their own ideas and make their own gear. I do think that for many people it is overwhelming and easier for them to start by following a pattern or making something similar to what others have done. I think it is better for a person to follow the group than to just go buy something because the task of MYOG seems to big. Also there is a cost associated to going it alone. If you use expensive materials you don't want to end up with an unusable piece of kit. If you spend the money to make the item 3 times because you aren't getting it right your money would be better spent just buying the gear. I think that inovation must come after you are confident that you have the skills and understand the basics of design. It is hard to inovate with your first creatation i think.

And yes i do think that your assault of all the people here who want help with their gear and want to just make something themselves that they know will work is indeed BS.

-Tim

Jim W.
(jimqpublic) - MLife

Locale: So-Cal
Re: Groupthink at camp MYOG.. on 01/13/2010 12:26:57 MST Print View

There is no evolution- only revolution!

I agree. The only way to come up with truly cutting-edge gear is to throw out convention and start with a clean slate. Use your imagination- push the limits of shapes, materials, technology. Buy a hundred yards of Cuben and try every possible sort of shelter, pack, garment. Fabricate and re-fabricate carbon fiber everything to the point of failure then make it fail somewhere else. Push the envelope! Get wet! See just how much you and the gear can take!

Some people on the other hand just want something that works, that fits them, and is maybe less expensive than store-bought. They don't want to have it fail. They don't want to make several versions, just one.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
both ways on 01/13/2010 12:35:44 MST Print View

You can call something groupthink, then easily turn around and call it synergy. Bouncing ideas off of others is very productive, too. People who operate in a vacuum aren't using some excellent resources that are available to them and will often try things that are KNOWN failures, thus wasting time, effort, and money.

Sure, pioneering your own ideas is useful and productive. But blanket dismissing anything anyone else has to say on a subject is just plain idiotic.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Groupthink at camp MYOG.. on 01/13/2010 12:36:16 MST Print View

En Deizeler post, 7/09
My cousin and I have recently decried our heavy bags as "never again." We're both investigating the ultra light, or rather, lighter, backpacker and I beseech ye reader for some advice regarding tarp shelters. I've seen plans for these tarp shelters - triangular pyramid style, bivyesque style, and A frame style. I'm looking to shortcut experimenting with every iteration by seeing what thoughts people have about the different styles. Additionally, is there consensus on silnylon vs hardware store tarp? Recently "borrowed" mother's old sewing machine and looking for linked tutorial content on that as well.

En Deizeler post 1/2010
You know what I see when i browse these forums? Lots of good help, yes, but also, lots of GROUPTHINK. I challenge you to first try your own solution before beseeching the masses for theirs. Leave the comfort of the known remedy and perhaps you'll create the next big thing.

Seems a slight disconnect.....

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Re: Re: Better mousetraps on 01/13/2010 12:43:22 MST Print View

En: I really think this belongs in the MYOG section. I think if you read that section (as many of us do) then you would realize that lots and lots of people come up with rather innovative ideas. Some come up with minor modifications, while others come up with some great, almost crazy ideas (for example, I am often amused just by the many ideas that Huzefa has come up with, even though many of his ideas didn't work out -- I would buy that guy a beer if we lived in the same town). Most of them, though, pay attention to what others are doing. They, as Isaac Newton put it, stand on the shoulders of giants.* Many of the do it yourself projects are copies of other projects because many of us are just learning the ropes. Do I want to make a brand new TarpTent out of Cuben? No Way. Not only would I probably ruin my investment (a rather pricey one at that) but I would ruin my weekends because of the frustration. That is why so many people take small steps when it comes to do it yourself projects. We know we can't become Bill Fornshell overnight.

*I love that quote, by the way. The guy who basically gave us the first good model for physics; a model that is so elegant, so correct (in most cases) that it is in use today for most engineering; gives props to the folks that preceded him. I would buy him a beer, too (or several).

Edited by rossbleakney on 01/13/2010 12:46:00 MST.

En Deizeler
(gimpslayer) - F
in kind reply on 01/13/2010 13:35:54 MST Print View

@Douglas
Yes! Indeed, this was EXACTLY to what I referring to when I said "Which is what I did at first. Then i got smart." (a few posts above)

The beauty is, I too tried to get consensus and a gameplan and feel good about my odds BEFORE i went all-in. You know what happened from that? I Learned to do it myself first. Since then I've returned, field xp + all, and I appreciate everything far more than if i had simply copied. And I understand how I could not have created a unique piece by coagulating the mass opinions.




@ Tim "And yes i do think that your assault of all the people here who want help with their gear and want to just make something themselves that they know will work is indeed BS."

"what totally new ideas are really left".

Your statements are a reflection of your attitude. I'm sorry to see a fellow explorer in a negativity mire. I hope you impartially reconsider your statement and begin to think that new ideas ARE possible. And that my "assault" is a plea for other doers to First Think for Themselves and Not be Afraid, Then share results.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
groupthink. on 01/13/2010 13:56:09 MST Print View

hey, here's an idea. do whatever you want. make whatever you want. share your ideas or don't share them. but don't act like an ass to people you don't even know.

p.s. i'm smelling yet another troll to cross the BPL bow.

Edited by DaveT on 01/13/2010 13:56:51 MST.

Michael Theiler
(MichaelST) - F

Locale: Annandale
Wise Words on 01/13/2010 14:31:41 MST Print View

There is someone around here who has the words
"Hike your own hike" in their signature. This was one of the first things I read when I discovered this amazing little enclave. Seems appropriate now, in a slightly different context.

Make Your OWN Gear*


ie no one is wrong, no one is right, do it your way.

I don't detect trolling, I detect trumpeting of a "way". It might be appropriate to some people. If it isn't to you, don't do it (I certainly won't be, ha ha). But some may wanna, so let 'em I say.

En Deizeler
(gimpslayer) - F
don't take this the wrong way please on 01/13/2010 15:01:10 MST Print View

@ Dave,

Who is trolling you or me?

and "yet another"?? I've never seen a troll thread here. And I hope you don't interpret mine to be one. Alas, think what you will.



@ Michael,

Yes, i love your post. I suppose I am trumpeting. Which I do not like. I shall try to word to avoid that.

This is an amazing little enclave.

Nia Schmald
(nschmald) - MLife
Re: don't take this the wrong way please on 01/13/2010 15:50:52 MST Print View

Someone shows up to a forum, makes their first post 5 months ago and makes 5 posts total and then says, "You are all doing it the wrong way. You should do it my way."

How did you expect people to respond to that?

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: don't take this the wrong way please on 01/13/2010 16:02:33 MST Print View

Agree with Nia, et. al.

Is group think so bad? Why reinvent the wheel each time? Part of "growing" is leveraging the knowledge and experience of others. To go out of your way to learn everything first hand is mere 'teen think'.

OTOH, don't think the wheel is all there is either. We call folks who think that way old farts. :)

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Groupthink at camp MYOG on 01/13/2010 16:42:25 MST Print View

There are two aspecs to this point.
1) I want to make my own tent
2) I want to design a new type of shelter

If all I want is to have some fun making my own tent and maybe save some money, then it maks sense to look at existing plans and copy/modify those .

If for gain or glory I want to show the world that a new type of shelter can be made, then I could start from almost zero and fiddle with whatever designs comes to mind till I have a working version, run out of money or go mad.

I would warn that option N1 all too often turns out to be more expensive than planned , option 2 very rarely comes to fruition and almost never as profitable as it seems.
But as long as I don't have to pay for it, by any means, get yards and yards of Cuben fiber and see what happens..
Franco

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
"Groupthink at camp MYOG.." on 01/13/2010 18:46:40 MST Print View

En, I applaud your desire to think for yourself, good for you. However I'm honestly steaming with anticipation for you to unveil and contribute to this community and specifically the gear section of this forum an UL item of gear nearly half as innovative as the Cuben/Momentum Epiphany quilt that Tim is responsible for out of his custom gear shop enLIGHTened Equipment. So you might want to rethink your comment about Tim being stuck in a "negativity mire". I wouldn't be so concerned about the problems of GROUPTHINK if I were you but rather your very broad sweeping brush of a mouth that is wiping crap all over this post. Your intentions may have been positive but the delivery was rough.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Groupthink at camp MYOG.. on 01/13/2010 19:15:34 MST Print View

Oh, yes...
Tim has to be one of the most way out thinkers/doers with products that actually work...
Franco