Does anyone have experience with the Hispar line of PHD sleeping bags? (see phdesigns.co.uk) I have what is essentially a Hispar 400 (nominally good to 15 degrees), that I bought on eBay, where it was sold as a 500 (nominally good to 5 degrees). (The full story is actually a bit more complicated, but that's another thread.)

The bag seems very well made, with unusually tight baffle spacing (approx. 4"), and the claim is made that the down used is especially springy 900 fill, which I have no reason to doubt.

The temperature ratings suggest the down/design is very efficient, or the ratings are optimistic. For example, in the 400 (the Hispar model number refers to the weight of down in grams), 14.08 oz of down is claimed to be good to +15.8 deg. F. In contrast, a WM Ultralite is claimed to be good to +20 deg. F with 16 oz. of fill--not an implausible difference, if the Hispar down is really, really good.

But the Hispar 600, with 21.12 oz of fill, is claimed to be good to -5.8 deg F, vs. the WM Versalite with 20 oz claimed good to +10 deg. F.

This seems like more of a spread, in a region where things can be a little dicey, so I'm wondering if anyone's had any experience with these bags and how they fare when the temperature drops. Of course sleeping bag ratings are an enormous can of worms, but anecdotal evidence helps.

Edited by swimjay on 12/20/2009 11:46:57 MST.

James from Backpackingbongos got a PHD Hispar 500, maybe you can ask him?

The European manufacturers need to make a ISO test on their sleeping bags if it comes to the temp ratings, so that it is standardized. The ratings are thus usually quite accurate, but I have no doubt that WM and others do similar tests when they sell their gear in the EU.

I don't think PHD use EN ratings Hendrik. It became illegal to sell sleeping bags in the EU unless they had been tested a few years ago.
As far as i know, no manufacturer has been prosecuted for ignoring the law.
If you study the PHD website, you'll find the reasons behind their ratings.

I'm not so sure that ISO tests are mandatory for European manufacturers. I know that Valandre started doing those a while back, with the result that the range from comfortable to survival got much wider. For example, the Shocking Blue (27 oz fill) had been described as -13 deg F bag, prior to iso testing. Now it is described, by ISO standards, as: comfortable from +26 deg. F down to +16 deg F, with the possibility of irreversible damage due to cold beginning at -18 F. (Not that much lower than the previous rating.) That's a huge range. Frankly, I think you'd be comfortable in a Shocking Blue at 16 F even if you had a cold 6 pack in the bag with you.

But PHD makes no mention of ISO testing on their site, that I can see, though they have a long, and good, discussion of the difficulties of temperature rating.

The ISO standard seems like a good idea, but there are different labs, and the testing protocol is not apparently the same everywhere. So I don't think all manufacturers have signed on yet.

Im sure it became law in Europe a few years ago, James. I think smaller manufacturers have ignored it because of the expense. As i said, no one seems to have been prosocuted yet.
The whole 'down' business is a minefield. For years Europeans used the Lorch Test to measure down fill-power. It gave a lower reading than the US method. So 800 EU would be a higher quality than 800 US. The US method gives a reading 4% higher than the Lorch test.
Some EU manufacturers have started using the US method to give inflated figures. You really have to do a bit of digging to find out what you are really buying.

EN ratings came into force in most EU countries in 2002. Some good info HERE

Now that you mention it, true, PHD doesn't seem to test. And as you both said, it gives pretty wide ratings, and there are different labs with different machines, so it all depends. That said, I have heard that most of the tests are somewhat accurate, however, YMMV. It also wasn't as any critique for any manufacturer (its so easy to be misunderstood on the web =).

Anyhow, as I said previously, James has the bag so I reckon if you drop him a comment on his blog he'll answer asap, he's a good fellow.

Mike, thanks for the link to the Mammut paper. It's striking how expensive the testing is. One of PHD's virtues is that they have what seems to be a wide and carefully calibrated range of bags (in a few different models, you can buy a bag with 400, 500, 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1300 gms of down, plus a few others--25 bags on offer, if I count correctly). That's an enormous testing burden.

I'll correct a previous statement i made after reading that document i linked to. It isn't illegal to sell sleeping bags in Europe without temp ratings, but if you give a rating, it must be the EN rating. :)

I agree the testing procedure is a helluva burden on a small outfit James. It doesn't seem right that legislation designed to protect the consumer, could limit the choice of the consumer by putting small outfits out of business.
Maybe 'common sense' has prevailed and this is why nobody has been prosecuted for ignoring the law. I would guess most of PHD's customers are savvy enough to know what they are buying. If they started selling on 'the high street', the law might pay them more attention.

I almost ordered a PHD winter bag a couple of years ago and then a friend sent me a Valandre Shocking Blue and it is THE finest bag I have ever had, this includes ID, FF, WM and so forth. Each to his own, but, I honestly put more faith in anecdotal comments from very experienced users who are in conditions similar to mine when choosing gear I cannot see.

So far, every serious winter mountaineer I have read reports from literally raves about PHD's quality, design and so on and I am most interested in hearing here from anyone using their gear....especially, if you have also used the foregoing maker's stuff.

I don't need another bag and actually want to get rid of my newish WM, but, I am very impressed by PHD insofar as I have dealt with them.

Correlating fill weights, bag dimensions... I haven't looked at the specs for your bag and how its measurements compare to the WM bags you mention. The WM UL and Versa have a 3" difference in girth, though, which is significant. I will also say that I've always thought the VersaLite is a bit of a red herring in the WM ratings... For example, the Antelope has a full 6 ounces more down, but only rates 5*F warmer (same dimensions). So, are the Hispar dimensions dramatically different?

EN 13537 is the European standard, but it is not mandatory(http://bit.ly/4HNgqr)- you just need to use the pointless (in this context) CE Tag.

PHD are very up-front about the subjectivity of 'comfort' and it would be unfair to suggest (as has happened here) that they are 'breaking the letter of the law' - they are at liberty to provide advice - which they do - as to peoples likely experience of their products, provided that they don't falsely claim any certification or use the CE Tag.

They are like the small US manufacturers in that they are very flexible and approachable - why not contact them?: they may be able to shed more light on the spec. of your bag, and it's suggested range of use?

PAUL

Some things you can give too much thought to.
Just look at who uses phd bags - Ranulph Finnes, Andy Kirkpatrick. the list is log and distinguished and if you have even touched one of these bags then its enough to makee you want to buy them.

Whats more, Pete is such an unbelievably friendly and honest guy I highly recommend simply calling him, even though you are in the states, he tell you everything you need to know and he isnt out to sell, if anything he has too much business as it is!

I just ordered a Hispar 400, it will be here in about 30 days so I might be able to help a little. But Pete is your man.

Paul, here are the dimensions as sent to me by Peter at PHD (I haven't spoken with him, but he has been quite helpful in email exchanges). The first figures as sent are half-circumferences in cm; next to them I've doubled and converted to inches:

Standard Half-circumference
Hispar
Chest 80cm 63
Waist 76cm 59.84
Knee 57cm 44.88
Foot 49cm 38.58

For Ultralite, shoulder/hip/foot is 59/51/38
For Versalite, shoulder/hip/foot is 62/53/39
as reported on the WM website.

So some differences, but not great (except at the waist/hip?), and part of these could be how and where the measurements are taken.

Laying my Hispar 400/500 over a Versalite, there's not a huge difference in exterior profile that I can see.

But Brad, I think your implicit point is very good--the more interior air to heat up, the less efficient a bag becomes, depending also on how well its collar seals--a bad seal means air is constantly being expelled and new air has to be heated

Also, it seems that, down quality being equal, what matters is the average density of down per square inch of bag radiating surface--so a larger bag should be less warm than a smaller one, if each has the same amount of down.

As I mentioned at the beginning of the thread, my bag is a bit of a mystery. It was sold on eBay as a Hispar 500, but was some ounces lighter than spec, and the laundry tag inside had the "500" lined through. A warrant office (British military) number had been affixed. Peter's unable to trace the bag's history--military secrets, etc. As far as I can tell, it's a 500 from which some down has been extracted (Peter mentioned that PHD will do this if a 400 is ordered and they have none in stock, but do have a 500 in stock.) Doing some arithmetic, my bag is somewhere between a 400 and a 425. Even so, it's quite lofty, and the down does feel quite springy. The general sense is that it's very well made.

Filling it back up to 500 spec, with postage both ways, would have been prohibitive--better to put the money to another bag, perhaps a 600, hence the thread.

Edited by swimjay on 12/22/2009 22:51:29 MST.

Hendrik, thanks for the link to backpackingboingoes. So far he hasn't posted any test impressions of the 500, but I'll check back occasionally.