SURVEY: Ultralight Hunting at Backpacking Light
Display Avatars Sort By:
Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: On-line surveys are worse than meaningless on 12/11/2009 12:39:30 MST Print View

"They tend to only count the people who really care about a subject. This will skew the results. Then the results are actually deceiving, rather than informative."

I would agree for an at-large online survey, but this is a much smaller audience. I think the results will be informative, at least for initial impressions. I don't think it would be hard to discern if the survey's been skewed by one side or the other.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
SURVEY: Ultralight Hunting at Backpacking Light on 12/11/2009 12:40:52 MST Print View

"I just KNEW there was a reason I pushed that submit button for the 1,469th time!"

Ah Nuts!

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re Survey on 12/11/2009 12:49:03 MST Print View

I think it's great that you are doing this Ryan.
The issue is more complicated than pro or anti hunting though. Folk might tick the no hunting box for many different reasons, and being anti-hunting is only one of them.


From my point of view, i would prefer the whole forum to be 100% UL backpacking orientated. That will not appeal to everyone, i know. There are loads of forums discussing the outdoors. Some cover a broad range of subjects, and others are more specialised, covering a particular niche market.
There is only one UL backpacking forum, and i am worried that it's specialised viewpoint becomes diluted. There are already forums for hunting, photography, gun collecting, fishing,canoeing, bushcraft, survivalism, and every form of outdoor activity you can think of.

I think it's very important that BPL maintains its specialisation, and doesn't drift into becoming just another outdoors forum.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re Survey on 12/11/2009 13:41:21 MST Print View

I love gear reviews and trip reports but I think BPL would be much more boring if all it did was review the latest packs and tell stories about hiking from point A to point B. Its fun to see how people apply lighweight principals to other wilderness activities that are slightly more vaired than simply hiking. Its seems to me that discussing a peice of gear thats not specifically backpacking gear (like a rifle or camera) is appropriate if its related to backpacking activities.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re Survey on 12/11/2009 13:48:05 MST Print View

"There is only one UL backpacking forum, and i am worried that it's specialised viewpoint becomes diluted. There are already forums for hunting, photography, gun collecting, fishing,canoeing, bushcraft, survivalism, and every form of outdoor activity you can think of."

I have yet to see any of those kinds forums with the emphasis
on keeping things lightweight that you see here however.

When i want to do a bit of climbing, I know if I post a
question about gear here, the thought everyone puts into it will include a primary goal of keeping everything light.
I won't end up with suggestions of 11mm ropes and
2 lb harnesses.

As long as the forums are wisely indexed and used, then
the more the better I say. Of course if every time a
hunting link comes up and it is filled purposefully
with off topic junk, then it won't work without heavy
moderation.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re Survey on 12/11/2009 15:09:56 MST Print View

BPL has a wide mission statement.

And Backpacking has a pretty precise definition for each of us; from our own perspective. So there is usually going to be a diverse opinion from each person.

For example, I have no interest in pack rafting. Don't even read the posts. To me it is not what I view as part of the backpacking 'genre.' But I own an 11 foot Mercury Quicksilver inflatible raft with a small motor. It is a different sport for me, with different goals. I don't belong to any boat forum, nor do I read about it.

In a previous life, I was an expert marksman with both hand guns and rifles. I no longer have any interest in firearms at all, and haven't owned one in many years. I have no interest in hunting. I have no problem with people owning and using firearms as long as it is within the law. I avoid hiking areas during hunting season (to include bow hunting). I do read these posts sometimes.

I have a fleeting interest in trout fishing. Only with my wife when camping with our tent trailer. I no longer have any interest in fishing when backpacking, as it does not align with my current packbacking goals and enjoyment of the sport (BPing). I do read the posts on backcountry fishing occassionally.

I have an intense passion for what I think backpacking is. And my view of packpacking is not identical to any one person's view, but it is more aligned to a majority of folks here, than in any other venue.

BPL cannot be all things to all people. We share ideas and seek answers to questions we have. That is it. If you do not agree with something, then don't read the article or the post. Don't try to force your opinion on others. And please don't call someone who disagrees with you a name.

BPL is not a forum to push one's view of the wilderness, philosophy, idealogy, or political ideals. If you wish to do so, there are organizations such as the Sierra Club, ACLU, Greenpeace, etc. that may welcome your contribution.

I enjoy BPL. I like to participate. I like to share ideas, if I have something positive to add. And I am opinionated. I state my opinion, and it may upset others, but I just leave it at that. I never try to force my opinion on others. I don't know everything and appreciate the willingness of others to share their knowledge and expertise with me and everyone else here. If a post goes sideways, I stop following it. It is that simple.

I am not going to stop coming here if an article or post is not aligned to what I think backpacking is.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: surveys on 12/11/2009 17:13:30 MST Print View

"Oh, except for ultralight hunting and anything having to do with guns" would be an immature approach to dealing responsibly with the topic. Same with eliminating the discussion of guns in the context of backcountry use on the forums: stupid!"

Well said. I just wish that the discussion did not inevitably drift over into handguns, which I do vehemently oppose, except in the military and law enforcement. It's hard to see where they have much application for serious hunting, in spite of all the posts to the contrary. Just my personal feeling and not a call to ban discussion of them, or any other subject for that matter. Unfortunately there was no way to get that nuance into the survey, but it's a minor shortcoming.

P. P.
(toesnorth) - F

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: surveys on 12/11/2009 19:04:39 MST Print View

Tom, in answer to your comment, "I just wish that the discussion did not inevitably drift over into handguns, which I do vehemently oppose, except in the military and law enforcement."
I felt the same way for most of my life. I now carry sometimes and usually concealed (legally). My reasons are:

Easier to carry on backpacking trips than a rifle (and quicker to access than a rifle when needed).
Protection from large predators (be they animal or human)
Protection for my pack animals when in use or the ability to 'put them down' mercifully on the trail if the need arises.

I do not hunt but I have no objection to others hunting for food.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: surveys on 12/11/2009 19:34:04 MST Print View

"I felt the same way for most of my life. I now carry sometimes and usually concealed (legally)"

I understand, PP. I just wish it wasn't felt to be necessary. A sad sign of the times as regards potential self defense. Unnecessary, IMO, for putting down pack animals and next to useless for large non-human predators. A rifle or shotgun could easily be carried for either contingency if you are using pack animals. For backpacking, I suppose a handgun is better than nothing against a bear or cougar but the most likely anticipated contingency, I'll bet, is human predators. I was just trying to indicate that the survey could have been more nuanced than to change anybody's mind. Thanks much for replying in such a civil manner. It proves that this topic actually can be discussed without degenerating into a flame war.

P. P.
(toesnorth) - F

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: surveys on 12/11/2009 20:27:09 MST Print View

Tom,
"Unnecessary, IMO, for putting down pack animals and next to useless for large non-human predators. A rifle or shotgun could easily be carried for either contingency if you are using pack animals."

Easier to carry than a shotgun or rifle as I mentioned in my post. I would not want to have to cut the throat of a faithful packing companion. It ain't easy. Been there, done that.
As far as next to useless for large non-human predators, I guess it depends on the caliber. I carry one large enough for most contingencies.
Thank you, Tom. The following is not directed to you:
I've been on both sides of the issue. It is quite subjective. You bring your own thoughts and experiences to the debate. It's too easy to dismiss an argument simply because it is out of your realm of experience.
If you argue in a thoughtful and respectful manner you can bring information and depth to a discussion.
We rarely, if ever, change minds on this forum so let's just play nice and remember that we probably have WAY more in common than not.
Just my .02.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
: Re: surveys on 12/11/2009 21:40:59 MST Print View

"I believe that everyone has a right to carry a gun in the backcountry, for any reason, where permissible by law."

How is believing that a law abiding citizen carring legally where and when its legal an extreme view?
And wouldn't the opposite of not allowing anyone to carry be to REQUIRE that everyone must carry?

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Guns on 12/11/2009 23:32:50 MST Print View

I just did the survey....seems good.

In my opinion, the pak-rifle clearly seems to fit within the mission of BPL. Those who are opposed to the pak-rifle review seem to be opposed because of a larger pre-existing opposition to guns, rather than being opposed b/c it's not within BPL's mission statement.

Fishing, hunting and gathering are all fascinating avenues to explore, as they push the limits of pack weight, unsupported hiking and survival skills. The key in my mind is making sure it's done sustainably.

Edited by dandydan on 12/11/2009 23:34:23 MST.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: SURVEY: Ultralight Hunting at Backpacking Light on 12/11/2009 23:34:03 MST Print View

Agreed. More interesting if more people would submit their survey (more is better, in this instance, IMO). The survey is far from perfect, yes. But it's a start. Perhaps the results can lead to a more comprehensive survey, or a better worded survey, etc.

True, but if the survey doesn't address the grey area that my own thoughts are based on, then it doesn't reflect what I think, and therefore would skew the survey results in a false direction (and by false, I'm not implying that it will fall in favor of pro-gun enthusiasts). To me, and I don't mean this in a critical way, the survey sounds like it was written by someone who supports guns. That's fine, but what about the reasons or caveats that someone against guns might have for their opinions? I think the survey should have been passed around among Ryan's anti-gun staff and a little bit further refined by their input. It would have made the survey more balanced and a truer measure of what the BPL member base really think. For instance, for question 5, to write: "I believe that guns should not be allowed in the backcountry for any reason.", doesn't allow for people who might have strong opinions about guns, but also see certain times when guns are necessary.

This is not to say I am criticizing Ryan, far from it. I think it's great that he is approaching the whole thing at all, instead of letting it just flounder on its own. I think it's important for all of us to realize that the people here have many opinions and views, but that doesn't mean we all can't get along (unless Dean carries that hugging thing too far! o_0 ). It's the mark of a good community when there is diversity and the community can still carry on with robust vitality.

But I'll follow your advice, Douglas, and submit the survey. Just know that the survey reflects little of what I think. I think more pro-gun members will come away feeling comfortable with it than anti-gun people. Just try it: take the survey once as a pro-gun advocate, then again as an anti-gun advocate and see how you feel in the end.

Peter Sustr
(czechxpress) - F - M

Locale: Boulder
Survey on 12/11/2009 23:48:46 MST Print View

I just took the survey and just wanted to add something.
As far as question #5 goes; I don't like seeing people carrying guns in the backcountry but, I am not against people having them. I just feel that from my experience with 99% of the people who carry them, they are not real backpackers, do not practice LNT principles and tend to drink a lot while camping.

Because of the above, I would prefer that people would feel like they don't need to take firearms into the backcountry. I have had incidents in the backcountry when these guys get drunk and start shooting there guns into the air, firing at things that move in the dark and are just a menace.

I support BPL and their mission. If you publish hunting related materials I will just choose not to read them, thats America, I can click on it or not.

P. P.
(toesnorth) - F

Locale: PNW
Re: Survey on 12/11/2009 23:56:59 MST Print View

Peter,
I've had those experiences, too. That is one of the main reasons that I was opposed to guns in general for a long time. I've come to realize that most gun owners are pretty responsible. There are a few that spoil things for all of us but for every loud, drunken gun-toting maniac, there are probably 100 (or more) sane, responsible gun-toting citizens.
I'm one of them. Just another old, gun-toting granny on the trail ;-)

John Frederick Anderson
(fredfoto) - F

Locale: Spain
survey and guns on 12/12/2009 03:30:06 MST Print View

I just did the survey, and think it was well written except for question 5, which was too general and polarized.
I didn't renew my subscription here because, amongst many reasons, the gun issue has no interest for me, and the site is very North American biased, rather than global.
I suggest a forum in 'Off Piste' for hunting, as there is for fishing, for those, like me, who either object to guns and backpacking, or have no interest in it.
I think the gun issue is particularly North American, and to most people outside the USA, it is regarded with a mix of humour and disgust, depending on the severity of your position.
Making the site more global, including and promoting chapters from other areas of the world that enjoy backpacking would keep the general focus on backpacking.
It's not my site, and I'll contribute help and advice based on my experience in my area as and when I can, but more focus on hunting and arms would see me drift away further as this change in focus doesn't apply to me, or others around the world who don't hike in North America.
2c fred

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: survey and guns on 12/12/2009 05:31:08 MST Print View

Very well put, John. As a non-American I feel just as you do. The suggestion of chapters from other areas of the world is a good one. And I, too, would drift away from BPL if guns start becoming a bigger focus. The arguments that a lot of Americans make for everything in their country being the standard that everyone else here must abide by just doesn't go down well for non-Americans. Perhaps BPL wants this to be a US-focused site, in spite of the many non-Americans here. Well, as John says, this is not my site, so I won't say here nor there about it, but it is something to consider. It should be noted, though, that for most of us outside the States the debate over carrying guns, even backpacking, is a non-issue. We simply never talk about it among ourselves and don't see a need to. To suggest, in our local discussions, bringing a gun on a hiking trip would most likely be regarded as not a little bizarre, if not downright shocking.

Edited by butuki on 12/12/2009 05:32:07 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: SURVEY: Ultralight Hunting at Backpacking Light on 12/12/2009 07:15:52 MST Print View

"To me, and I don't mean this in a critical way, the survey sounds like it was written by someone who supports guns."

It probably was, but I think it's probably more correct to say that the survey was written by someone not thinking about the survey, but rather thinking about the gun issue.

"I think the survey should have been passed around among Ryan's anti-gun staff and a little bit further refined by their input. It would have made the survey more balanced and a truer measure of what the BPL member base really think."

Great thought. You're right, I believe it could have improved the survey, perhaps immensely.

"I think it's great that he is approaching the whole thing at all, instead of letting it just flounder on its own. I think it's important for all of us to realize that the people here have many opinions and views, but that doesn't mean we all can't get along (unless Dean carries that hugging thing too far! o_0 )."

Also agree. Dean, dude, what is it with all that hugging! ;-)

"But I'll follow your advice, Douglas, and submit the survey. Just know that the survey reflects little of what I think."

Thanks! I think it's important that as many BPLers as possible submit it. As far as question 5, I agree, rather poorly worded and doesn't give me a chance to 'vote' how I feel about guns. So I just didn't answer 5, only 1-4. And I think that it was those three short words, 'for any reason,' that are causing most of the issues with question 5. Without those it would have been a much better question, and one I would have answered (though the choices still wouldn't have really captured my thoughts on the issue).

Take care

donald buckner
(toomanyarrows)

Locale: Southeast U.S.
Survey on 12/12/2009 16:15:17 MST Print View

I took the survey and I hope it helps you Ryan with answers. I personally would welcome an entire slice, section or Forum dedicated to backpacking light while hunting. I wish I had the guts to stick my neck out financially some way but I believe there is a large amount of interest and therefore a potentially large market for the manufacture and marketing of gear that would make hunting in the backcountry a less strenuous and lightweight endeavor. Most hunters would love to get away from the crowds and enjoy the peace and tranquility that can only happen if you are willing to put in the work to get away from it all. While it would still involve a lot of work and effort, backpacking light as a hunter venturing forth would certainly help make this an encouraging proposition for those looking for a great adventure and that were in reasonable shape but not necessarily decathaletes. (Like me) P.S. I really enjoy reading the posts about all this because I can see some really good character coming through on both sides of the issue. It is encouraging to see the quality of people that post on this site. Same goes for the BPL staff.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
survey on 12/15/2009 19:48:35 MST Print View

I was surprised to see what a firestorm followed Ryan's review, maybe I shouldn't haven been. Living in Montana we're very blessed with a lot of nice areas to hike. Blessed with a lot of nice areas to fish. Add berry and mushroom harvesting to the blessing we enjoy. We are also blessed with an abundance of game animals, game birds and the habitats to support them. Montana is not unique, there are many, many other places equally blessed

I've devoted 20 years in my career as a game warden to help insure my children and grandchildren (and other's children and grandchildren) have the same opportunities I had to hike, fish, gather and hunt. If they choose not to, that's fine, it is indeed a choice- it's the opportunity that I want to insure.

It seems to to me that we all share the pursuit of being in the wild (for many of the same reasons and for many different reasons) and we should respect those pursuits, and try not to infringe on them. We can agree to disagree, but I feel a discussion about equipment and techniques on ultralight hunting is no more out of reason than one on ultralight photography, ultralight rafting or ultralight fishing.

my .02