First person to the campsite gets first grabs on tent site selection. Is that fair?

If I pack in some cold beverages I am going to drink them. I did not pack in four 24oz beers for my friends to drink.

You must relieve yourself very,very far from the camp....Not just outside your tent.

There has to be more:

Oh Yea-Pick up your trash Dude!

What other unwritten rules are there?

Edited by Creachen on 12/07/2009 16:27:36 MST.

I wait for slower people at trail junctions, and places where the trail is hard to follow.

I always carry in all the food for the family.

Edited by Creachen on 12/12/2009 23:01:50 MST.

everyone in camp helps with gathering firewood

Learn to navigate yourself so when I fall off a rock and knock myself silly you can go for help....

Carry some of the fuel instead of assuming I brought enough for you too, and don't be asking me to boil water for you only when we are setting up ten miles from the car.... It's called planning ahead. You were supposed to do that too.

Don't leave the $%^&# bear canister open!

Even if your wife laughs at lightweight gear you had better carry a lot more group gear then her.

Don't be too obvious reminding her that you can pee in 30 seconds while still wearing your pack.

Pretend you have as many mosquito bites as her (who refused permethrin clothing treatment and DEET in favor of lemon-eucalyptus oil)

Man does all the cooking and cleanup.

Your wife might not think the same dish is appropriate for every dinner. Especially if it's mostly made of dried refried beans and dried cheese... if you know what I mean.

Don't let the children get eaten by a puma.

Backpacking food causes a lot of Gas----Just let it rip--Hold nothing back...Farting is almost a right of passage on the trail-- it moves you along.

Don't agree if she asks if the new hiking pants she is wearing make her ass look big.

Dig the cathole for the wifey.

Remove ticks from anywhere. Don't say anything other than OK got it.

Once in cross country, a teammate accidentally spit over his right shoulder....directly into my mouth. NOT COOL. so watch where you spit, especially if its windy.

Warn the group if you are going to be bathing nekkid in a nearby stream, and do it well downstream of camp.

People who snore like a chainsaw....denial doesnt cut it, and its not funny. Camp far away, or get your tent dropped on you at 3am. :)

If you bring some insanely tasty and aromatic food, and your buddies are eating unseasoned beans and rice, be descrete. Cook the bacon downwind, or share.

Nobody wants to smell your feet/socks/shoes after an 8 hour day of hiking. Especially if sharing a tent. Do what ya gotta do.

Digging a cat hole for your wifey....for real?

I backpack alone. No buddies is the rule.

When your 2 friends are going with their Dad and sharing a tent, bring the smallest tent possible for yourself so that when you arrive at the rocky campsite and the trio with the 3-man tent takes the only flat, non-rocky spot within a radius of 2 square miles, you have the most chance of being able to sleep that night LOL (true experience)


Edit: yeah I know what you're going to say, bring a hammock. well those don't work to well above the treeline lol

Edited by edude on 12/07/2009 19:49:18 MST.

if 3 men are forced into a 2 man tent; what happens on the trail stays on the trail.

so...of course i haven't done that.

Be flexible. People will often have little paranoias about the woods that you don't have, so just try to accommodate them rather than argue about it.

Don't say anything about your buddy's packweight, especially if yours is really light and can be lifted with one hand and they have to hoist their pack to their knee first before struggling into it. Let the ease of your movements be the quiet advertisement and leave the evangelizing until they actually ask you a question.

Great thread, Jay.

Jim, I hope you aren't speaking from experience: "Don't let the children get eaten by a puma."

"everyone in camp helps with gathering firewood"

...and then double the amount. It always seems to run out at 0300 hrs.

I'm with Nick--go alone and avoid all these problems. I do take my dog--he adjusts his pace to mine (slower) and keeps my feet warm at night!

please put friends on notice with a simple call of "wang out" or something similar when changing boxers, taking a dump, etc

Is that ben wood or bent wood :)

I usually prefer one person tents. I suffer anxiety over gear damage from my friends style/lack of experience in equipment care especially in rain/muddy situations. Also avoids gas, snore, pee issues. I am usually the only one that owns the appropriate gear for the trip. For people that aren't familiar with the shelter configuration,wakening in the night to exit and do their business, gear can get damaged. The gear I provide my friends is a little more robust and thus heavier so no worries. I carry more of the food/group gear to equal the pack weight.

"Digging a cat hole for your wifey....for real?"

Ya know, you always read about guys whining about how the wife won't come along. If a guy needs to do things for her to hike with him, suck it up and be a man. It is like killing bugs at home - that is a man's job. In all honesty, when we backpack together (the husband and I), I do the cooking and cleaning (I like to do it). Part of being a team.

He puts my socks on for me. A win-win.

And oddly, snorers don't bother me. I actually encourage them to plop their tent/shelter next to mine. Why? White noise. It masks everything. I grew up in a house of chainsaw snorers......

Be nice and share?

I've always thought sharing food and alcohol with your friends was the right way to do it...

And what's with all this crazy fear of seeing a friend naked?

I'm with Craig re. sharing.

You can't bring in a treat like beer and not share. It isn't done.

I've only once had a guy in the group pack in beer and not share. We all agreed that the guy was very uncool.

Never really liked that guy much anyway.

Yeah, that is just rude and poor form, you picked the site because it was a good decent location, then spoil it with tinkle for the next hiker to come along and sleep in or on it. Use a urine bottle then dispose of properly in the morning or take a few extra yards to get away from the campsite---can't tell you how many times I hear the call of nature literally at all hours car camping in Yosemite on the valley floor. It is a wonder the Merced River isn't yellow!

"couch"

I dunno, sharing beer after humping it on your back all day? Thats a tough one. If I carried it, and had the foresight to bring it, it'd be a tough sell to share. However, one may do better by warning his camping buddies before they hit the trail. "Hey, I'm bringing beer. Beer that I'LL be carrying. If you want some, you should bring some." That way, you told 'em so!

Sarah, looks like you got a good deal going there! I asked my girlfriend if she'd let me dig a cathole for her. Her response? "Why the &#@! would you do that? I'll do it myself, thanks."

Edited by T-Funk on 12/08/2009 10:50:01 MST.

There is a rule of thumb that says the distance a man will travel from his tent at night is inversely proportionate to the outside temperature and coupled directly to the frequency.

So if its cold.... and he needs to go multiple times....he'll go closer and closer to the tent!

I am more than happy to share beer...

At the trailhead. I'm open to negotiations too. Just don't tell me you don't wanna carry the extra weight at the trailhead, and then get thirsty on the mountain.

I too really enjoy sharing food and drink at a camp site--I like the Tribe feeling...Most of my Friends usually bring in a specialty dish for the first night.(Happy Hour) I will share my single-malt scotch but not my BEER! Sorry-that's where I draw the line.. But I will share my DEET, First-Aid Kit, TP, Sunblock and Food..

One more thing--If you are going to get water for yourself take every body else's Platypus's with you-- Pay it forward---help the tribe.

Jay, you are a great shar-er. Your coffee saved me a headache, your cheese and crackers were a treat

The beer is a sensitive subject. I to like to share, but beer is just to precious and heavy. At the same time, its just no fun to be the only one drinking, and have everybody staring at you like wolves ready to tear you apart. So ive got to agree with Jay about the single malt scotch. I bring it, i am willing to share, but only a few have the sand to swig on Glenifiddich as its passed around the fire. Washing it down with a Guiness, however, is a privilage earned through foresight and willpower.

"I've always thought sharing food and alcohol with your friends was the right way to do it...

And what's with all this crazy fear of seeing a friend naked?"

Right on, Craig. How else could it be?

Methinks we can conclude that not sharing beer is a legitimate personal choice -- but does not qualify as an "unwritten rule" -- in other words, something that can go either way.

Me also thinks we do not want to see Tom K. nekked... :)

I always ascertain well before the trailhead if others are bringing in drink. If so, I bring some too and we all share. If not, I leave the booze behind.

Sharing meals is fun and efficient if you plan ahead. However I will NOT share a tent with snorers, wrigglers, coughers or noisy flatulent folks. My sleep is sacred.

Umm, nekkidness is just part of the great outdoors. You learn quickly to turn a blind eye.

Always wait at forks in the trail, better yet is to walk and talk with your friends.

I draw the line at carrying someone elses' stuff just because their pack is too heavy though...that is. unless they are injured.

On the assumption you are well acquainted with your companion, share whatever it takes to make the trip a success, within your capabilities. Enen competent, trustworthy backpackers slip up and forget things from time to time. You've got to take care of each other. On one 10 day long ago, my buddy forgot his toothbrush. He was mortified but I held up mine and told him, "We've still got one; what's the problem". And we had a great trip. Whatever it takes.

Craig is right. Sharing is great and a common courtesy. Being a benevolent provider to the less fortunate is a wonderful feeling. As Sarah said, "suck it up and be a man", and being a provider is part of being a man.

But, as Lori said, "It's called planning ahead. You were supposed to do that too." If you didn't bring yours to share, don't feel entitled to mine. If you forgot or didn't know better, I will help you as it is my nature. If you ignored sage advice and you are hungry, cold, or wet, I will still help, but you will remember the experience so that you learn. I expect the same treatment in return, but I bring plenty to barter with.

If you forgot your beer but were first to the campsite, you might want to give Jay the premier real estate. If you forgot your isobutane in the car, cook for Lori and study your map. If you partake in Stefan's bacon, give him your beer. Collecting enough firewood and real estate will satiate me. If I'm not satiated and you drank my Scotch and smoked my Ashtons, I'm not apologizing for the cat hole I forgot to dig in front of your tent.

Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day, set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life...

Edited by Trooper on 12/08/2009 20:38:14 MST.

"Umm, nekkidness is just part of the great outdoors. You learn quickly to turn a blind eye."


I don't know about you all....but rarely does anyone I hike with get naked. Being that it is often freezing cold/soggy or bug infested one might see why. Even swimmers often have clothes on in summer - otherwise you get bit!

Hence, when I hike I expect that I won't be seeing naked people cavorting around. You rarely see it up here, remote or short trails. The whole needing to get naked and blinding people with white skin doesn't seem to be a big priority.

"...don't know about you all....but rarely does anyone I hike with get naked."

Your either with the wrong group; or you are with the right group! For better or worse, it appears we are hiking with the same folks.

Edited by Trooper on 12/08/2009 20:49:19 MST.

If they are really your buddies:
1. Share. "You can have half my power bar/dinner."
2. Forgot Something?! "Use mine. What are friends for."
3. Falling behind/Too far ahead? "I will wait for you in the shade/bend up ahead."
4. Feet bothering you? "Tuff luck! Unless of course you are hot or my kid - but you can borrow my first aid kit. Just use it sparingly.
5. Advice is free. "But just when you need it and even if you don't want it - we are buddies!"
6. Want to go home early?! "Bite me! Suck it up! How are you ever going to enjoy this if you can't make it through a bad day?!??!!!?!"
7. Want a sip of my beer?!?! "You had better be carrying your own, because we discussed this in advance. You want to share mine? You are going to have to drink the Root Beer Snaaps too (I love dessert)!!! I hate to have a buzz alone."
8. Pee Bottles are mandatory! "Gatorade bottles are the best though I have seen people who use the yellow Nalgene wide mouthed bottles. I will never drink out of a yellow one again!"
9. Camp chores are for everyone. "Fill the water bottles, gather the wood, set up the tent/tarp or bivy, cook and clean last. get wood. gather as much as you can find in a half hour!"
10. Have fun! "You better have fun with life no matter what. Brining buddies is tuff. Treat them good or don't do it!"

Good luck!

Let me retract, or at least partially discredit my previous statements. We all have certain quips about what should or should not happen in dealing with other people in the making of a memorable journey. But I must say, all this talk of unwritten rules is a bit depressing. They are "unwritten" for a reason. I've said this at least once before on BPL. The beauty of backpacking is that you KNOW you are going to come up against something that you are not set to face, and somehow you find a way to face it. And after having faced such an issue, you can smile about the fact that you managed to face said situation. Thats really what we are all doing here isnt it? We learn from experience, we evolve. In fact, the only way we truely learn is from personal experience. So....lets just see how it goes? We can talk about it all we want, we can share experiences, we can give sound advice.....but the true spirit of adventure is venturing into the unknown. There is a certain peace that comes with walking as far as you can walk, and knowing that you can not only survive in doing so, but actually be far happier than you were 10 or 20 or even 2000 miles ago. It's a de-evolution, a regretion, and its a beautiful thing. Jay, who started the thread, mentioned the word "tribe".... what a simple and perfect way to describe the whole situation of "unwritten rules" in a single word. Nobody can be totally prepaired for the unknown, but as a tribe, and often as an individual, we can and do face the unknown with a cetain confidence, and in doing so, we learn to conquer not only the unknown, but more inportantly, our own ego. The unknown is only amplified with the addition of members to the tribe. So i say, lets keep it unwritten.

Stefan,

That's beautiful man...can I write that down?

C

"Can I write that down?"

Writing the unwritten. Now we've found ourselves in a dilemma.....who's got single malt scotch again?

But back to the OP...

>Oh Yea-Pick up your trash Dude!

Seriously. I don't really even understand all the garbage in urban settings, but out in the backcountry? C'mon!!! I REALLY REALLY REALLY (did I stress that enough?) don't need to see your garbage. I've got a pristine view of a waterfall/mountain/flower-studded field/etc.........with your left over SNICKERS wrapper. Or diaper (I've seen it). Its like throwing poo on the Mona Lisa.

Just me and my dog for the most.

Last time i went with friends i was stunned to see 12 beer bottles melted together in the bottom of our fire pit the next morning.

The sign read "pack it in pack it out".
No place for illiteracy in the backcountry.

It is like killing bugs at home - that is a man's job.

(chuckle) Apparently Sarbar has never met a female entomologist!

And then there was this >100 year old building I once worked in ... bats loved it. Everyone held out for significant non-monetary compensation before agreeing to remove a bat until the day that a newly hired woman said "I'll get it, but only if I can keep it and bring it home". Her husband is a biologist and they spent a significant part of their early married life living outdoors collecting all kinds of small mammals that might freak out your average city dweller.

If you're hiking with someone you don't know too well, and they drop behind, wait for them... BUT, don't start walking ahead again as soon as they catch up with you! You've just had a 5 minute rest, but they haven't. Stay WITH them for a few minutes, offer them a sip of H2O or a bite of trail mix, then ask them if they are OK to move on.

Try to hike with a team at about the same fitness/speed level, and with similar objectives and philosophy of backpacking. There's nothing worse than trying to fastpack with a sightseer (or vice versa).

Talk about your navigation & safety systems in advance (will we have a GPS, map & compass etc, who has what safety gear and where do they keep it). Any critical meds in the group? Any diabetics? Important allergies? Who has insulin, epi pens etc?

Everyone should know how to work their own H2O system, cook on their own stove, put up their own tent... seeing someone rip their REI tags off in the backcountry, and having to run after them since they dropped 'em on the ground, is an indicator of an "interesting" trip!

If you have violent nightmares tell your tentmates. Don't let them find out at 2:30 in the morning when you sit up and scream "I'm gonna kill you you sonovabitch!"

I was innocently sleeping when a guy did this. I was fighting to get out of my sleeping bag and trying to remember where the door was so I could get out. The guy then lay back down, rolled over and went back to sleep. It took me a while to fall asleep again.

This is a funny thread.

For me there is only one rule: choose your partners well.

Sorry, I've been on the trail or working, so here are my late contributions:

1. When on the AT (or other trails with permanent shelters), use your tent and not the shelter. That way, the only person snoring or farting whom you have to worry about is yourself.

In that regard, no matter how much you love each other, sleep in separate shelters, especially if you're on a long hike. You'll like each other better in the morning. Exceptions: if it's really cold or my wife and me, especially if you're reading this now, honeypot. Okay, I know this one is controversial. YMMV.

2. When traveling with a spousal unit or any other person of the opposite gender, go deep into the woods to relieve yourself. If somebody else of the opposite gender is relieving her- or himself, walk a decent distance and wait, staring vacantly into the woods in the opposite direction until that person catches up with you.

3. As others have noted, carry extra food and booze. There's nothing better than passing the bottle (or the pipe if you are so inclined) around as you sit by the fire as the sun sets majestically in the west.

As in,

"Me and my old lady sat and passed the pipe around."

John Denver

4. In that regard, nothing is more edifying to your traveling companion(s) than reaching into the fire for just the right-sized stick and lighting the pipe with the burning end. A Bic Mini just doesn't cut the mustard, emotionally speaking. Not that I'd do that myself, but it sets exactly the right tone if you are so inclined. :-D

Stargazer

Hmmm, perhaps there are some more generous hikers out there than I've encountered, I'm feeling like a bit of a jerk. Fortunately the folks I've been hiking with agree to the same general rules:

1. You want to bring it along? Then YOU carry it. Just cause my pack weighs less than yours, I'm not carrying your stuff to even it out! Putting together my sub-20# pack contents cost me a lot of time and jing, and I intend to enjoy every minute of it. Group gear and food goodies to share is one thing, but your five pound sleeping bag is another!

2. Share my beer? I don't think so, that stuff is heavy. It's different if your boyfriend is a sasquatch and can will happily carry in a six pack in for you--that is just good manners on his part and increases the likelihood I won't kick him every five minutes for his chainsaw snoring. Likker on the other hand is comparatively light, and ought to be passed around.

3. Bring a decent sized branch back for the fire when you go off to pee.

Dig me a cathole? You must be kidding.

P.S. Don't forget to attach a little bouquet of flowers on the tent! (My favorite "Lighten Up" recommendation for hiking with a woman!)

"I don't know about you all....but rarely does anyone I hike with get naked. Being that it is often freezing cold/soggy or bug infested one might see why."

Umm, I was referring to stuff like changing clothes. This is particularly tricky in a hut situation and you simply learn not to look. If someone wants to swim in the buff or bathe, they usually let you know in advance so there are no surprises. I spent too many years kayaking to be shy about getting my wet clothes off in a group of folks...

The 'best' nude event I ever saw was when it was cold, soggy and buggy. We were staying in a hut, and one of the guys volunteered to go to the creek for water. He didn't want to put his wet clothes back on just to get water, so wearing nothing more than his boots, and carrying a pot like a fig leaf, he set out at a jog to do his manly duty for the rest of us. It was really quite hilarious!

Lol! OK, I had to poke that one. I swear everyone I hike with wears the same crusty clothing day in, day out. You get wet, you wear your clothing till it dries....

We are not "shy" or "prudish" just rather there is not often any reason for us to strip down. And honestly, in our group the majority of us were never into being naturists and didn't grow up where we felt the need to get naked in front of those we are not married to.

Out here huts are few to be found and nearly always are private property, trails shelters are few and moldering into the ground...usually occupied by mice and bugs (no stoves or fireplaces) and 3 sided, open to the wind. If one does need to change....that is what their tarp or tent is for. It is a heck of a lot warmer!

Yeah, at the end of the day, most folks change into something drier and less dirty. For many of us (me included) good hygiene also means having a wash at the end of the day. This is either in a river or from a water tank. Either way, it involves getting naked, but you let people know "I'm just going out for a quick wash". People give you some space for this. Occasionally we will even wash in the hut if there is a sink and tap water. Depends on how bad the weather is outside...

"For me there is only one rule: choose your partners well."

Essential.

No advice is given unless its asked for.

Sharing is okay but if you know you will want something you should bring it.

farting, smoking, drinking, cussing is all okay by me.

If its supposed to be a guys trip don't bring your wife or girlfriend.

joseph

Thou shalt not take pictures of other members, well....member, and then show them at the post trip get together with friends. I guess that other rule applies here, "Choose your hiking buds wisely lest yee be blasted!" Thankfully, not my member but rather the member of one of our members member on our JMT thru hike.

couch

For me there is only one rule: choose your partners well.

Well said.

if someone can do something better than you, then let them do it. building a fire? hanging a bear bag? dont insist you are the expert when you arent...

Edited by dharmabumpkin on 12/09/2009 23:58:36 MST.

The reason I like backpacking is because I enjoy so much my first hot shower and a cold beer. (not exactly...)
But since I am not prepared to carry my own beer nor the Sea to Summit shower thingo (gratuitous plug, but it is only 2 oz) I do not expect anyone to share his/hers beverages with me, nor their showers .
So if you carry the stuff in don't feel embarrassed about not sharing.
BTW my personal preference for solo tents is because I would not share my tent with someone like me. The exception is a mate of mine that falls asleep instantly and only wakes up when something happens (ie not me snoring,peeing ,grunting and global warming)
BTW, I do realise that sharing food is very "tribal" but I also think that most cases of intestinal problems on the trail are not caused by contaminated water but poor hygiene.

Franco

Before you go, check if your friend is bringing beer. Then you don't have to make me feel bad for drinking beer. Especially if you normally hike with me and you know I always bring beer. 'I just didn't think' isn't an excuse!
If you do share a tent, take your waterproofs off before you get in, even if it's hammering down with rain, so you don't shake water evrywhere taking off your waterproofs in the tent.
If you do fart, make sure it's loud so that there isn't just an unexplained and vile smell.
If your pack is lighter than your friend's then don't compare weight. Don't even pick up his or her pack subtly just to feel smug inside yourself becuase you know he will notice!

Just saw this.....Dehydrated Beer!!

http://patsbackcountrybeer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=26

So far I have only seen "beer flavour" concentrates, this looks promising. Now keep an eye on that and let us know when it is ready.
This could be bigger than the Neo Air saga.
Franco

Back Country Beer! this is a genious idea. I think BPL should get behind this as a coporate sponsor! Then maybe... just maybe we could get a members discount on the goods!

not sure if the beer mix falls under a luxury or must have item...

It's kind of funny that they are coming out with dehydrated beer. I have a buddy who think it's the strangest thing in the world that I go backpacking in the woods all by myself without any beer. I used to always tell him it's too heavy. He said the only reason he hasn't taken up backpacking is because he wants to drink beer every night if he does go... maybe now he'll be able to.

-Sid

I have hiked with a loosely knit group for so many years that we all have a rhythm.
Since most of us are friends outside of hiking now it is common that some sleep over at our house. They are like family. Just family with a long drive over if they want to hike in the Cascades.
We also car pool or have my husband drop us off.


So the rules:
1) Starting early is not an option. This is so we can do all of the below.

2)Stopping at Safeway and Starbuck's is not an option. It always happens on the way out of town. Newbies figure this out quickly

3) Someone will want McDonald's in the back seat. We will stop.

4) Someone will need a last minute bathroom break at the last flush toilet. Plan in time.

5) Good food is meant to be shared. Always have enough of something special to share. It is the way. See above stop at Safeway for last minute buys.

6) Have your pack ready to go when we hit the trailhead. Boots on is a plus. We just don't get people who pack at the trailhead to say the least ;-)

7) There is no such thing as "group gear". You want it, you haul it.

8) There is nothing wrong with making private deals with friends on sharing items. Just don't assume people want to do a deal - you have to know them well.

9) If someone's gear breaks or fails, lend them yours unless they are a jerk. But we try to keep jerks to a minimum.

10) If someone has a hard day and gives the silent treatment, temper tantrums or a crying fit just ignore it. Then when they are in a better mood poke them for it. It happens.

11) In camp we eat as a group but each of us prepares our own meal (unless we have a deal between friends). We always offer leftover hot water to anyone who needs/wants it. Need spices? Honey? Tea packets? Help yourself.

12) If you see someone with no energy, offer to help them put up their shelter, get water for the group or tie off the Ursacks at night. If you get up early and get your Ursack, get everyone else's and take them to the kitchen area. The nice person boils water for morning drinks if they have sleepy heads with them!

13) Hike at your own pace. As long as you have map skills it is OK to be behind. If you have a newbie, don't ditch them though.

14) Never be an overbearing LNT douche bag. It is annoying and guess what? We all know it. We don't need or want to hear about your LNT master training for 40 miles.

15) If moral is down be sure to talk about all the beer, pop, ice tea and pizza you will buy when done. Talking about food seems to always help. Then pull out that treat you bought back on day 1 and share it.

16) It is always flat along the ridgeline. Don't ruin my fantasy!

17) After hike, eating out is nearly always done. I am observant enough to know who cannot afford it and I or someone else will cover your bill. We know how it is to be in that position and will never embarrass you. Going out to eat seems to work as this awesome way to bond over the trip and not just disappear on the wind at the trailhead, with cars driving away. And no one passes up a hot meal and a cold drink unless they are an idiot......

PS: Most of us don't care about being fashion plates and often smell like well traveled yaks at the end. Most of us don't care about bathing on trail, wearing deodorant or carrying fresh clothing for changing into in camp. It is a good idea to carry new clothes for the car. If you want. We don't care. That is what home is for - that shower so hot it sears you.
Most of us don't share shelters. They are small and it is our tiny box of privacy.
If Dicentra and I are on a trip together we will talk the entire trip, from sun up to bed time. Get used to it. If you don't want to hear us, walk faster with the boys. We will see you in camp.

Benjamin Franklin said that "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

This dehydrated beer suggests that God's name just might be Pat.

If you want to make thirty miles a day there better be a general agreement on it. Otherwise its not worth the strain on friendships when someone can't keep up.
Also even if you're feeling fine it seems appropriate to at least act tired if someone else is suffering more than you.
Humor is good. My friend teases me constantly about my "bookbag" (small golite pack)and I tease him about his "Gregory tower"(Gregory expedition pack).

>>>15) If moral is down be sure to talk about all the beer, pop, ice tea and pizza you will buy when done. Talking about food seems to always help.<<<

Quite a while ago I read about a discussion a couple of climbers where having during an unplanned bivy high on an alpine peak, and they spent most of the night talking about beer and food to pass the time.

One of them said something like, "if we had some bacon we could have bacon and eggs, if we had any eggs..."

It always cracks me up everytime I think of that quote.

>>>10) If someone has a hard day and gives the silent treatment, temper tantrums or a crying fit just ignore it. Then when they are in a better mood poke them for it. It happens.


That is great advice.

Sarah's last comments really make me wonder why she would want to hike with these other people. Sounds like a lot of hassle and not much benefit. Oh well, as long as you HYOH.

I don't know, sounds like ours, except the having your pack ready at the trailhead. We always go to the same place, and take all fresh food, some requiring "refrigeration". Besides, the beer and wine need to be cold. So, almost everyone takes an ice chest and transfers stuff from it to their pack (this food goes in the river at the camp site). Besides, there is always that piece of gear that you forgot and just have to have, so you stopped at REI on the way up. ;-)

Edited by Hitech on 12/10/2009 11:26:30 MST.

Sounds good to me. I need to come up to the PNW again... :)

This thread helps remind me that I'm not much of a social creature. I don't like chit chat all that much, or talking about my life or someone else's life. You can only talk gear so long. I mostly hike alone.

Ben and I survived - even talking politics. I only wish I had more cake to make and share ;-) That last night was nice - when we all had a fire.

I would say that for the most part in our group we hike as individuals together for friendship. That can be very different for folks who grew up with Boy Scouts or did group trips where the individual doesn't exist. One good friend I met years ago (who went on to perform my husband's and I marriage) had only done those kinds of trips. We argued for years online before we hiked together. He for sure thought we were all heathens. Then he was "oh I get it!" The concept that we all have a happy medium - we have "our gear" "our style" "our pace" "our fruity diet that no one else wants to eat" but we still crave companionship on our journeys.

And so our rag tag group picks up people yearly who are just like us, the misfits who together work well. I can think of a few who post here I call friends now and would hike with nearly anywhere - Hoosierdaddy is my best example. Him and I are polar opposites yet it works. TwoFourtyJeff, Rooinator and others go into that group as well.

It is that easy acceptance that makes it work. I am sure we would drive organized groups batty within minutes. Lol!

"That can be very different for folks who grew up with Boy Scouts or did group trips where the individual doesn't exist."

Actually, it has nothing to do with that. To me, it's all about lightening up. Sharing a tent, stove, pots, fuel and bits and pieces just makes good sense from a UL point of view. I mean, two people in a Refuge-X means a mere 8oz per person for a fully enclosed tarptent. Awesome!!! Two folks sharing a Ti-Tri is just too cool and efficient. And having two people to split up camp chores is also nice. I'll cook dinner while you get the tent set up. Then you can do the dishes :)

Four pages of posts (and counting) is a lot to write about unwritten rules!

Sigh...here is why we go solo in groups:
Like many, I eat such a strict diet no one else wants to eat my way (my food is so low sodium most would be looking for a salt lick). I hike with vegans, gluten free diets, meat only (oh the tales about Sausage Boy! Never have I seen a man eat so many wieners in a sitting), raw food fans, people allergic to dairy, gahh....the list is so long I wouldn't want to go on. Basically, by being responsible for your own food you know exactly how much you need. To the 1/4 ounce. No one is hungry due to a partner developing a thru-hiker appetite.

Don't get me wrong - when I go with my husband and son we share one stove and pot. That is different. For them I cook for all of us. But they will eat what I can eat.

Most of us don't do dishes. Lets say that the FBC method was adopted by most.

Shelters? This is a tricky area. I will share with my son and husband and as well with Dicentra on a cold night. I don't with others. This is simple: many of us are married and we hike with people who are not our SO's. It is respectful to those at home that boundaries are established. Yes, I am old fashioned. I wouldn't like it if my husband shared a tent with another lady, so when out with my male friends I sleep in my own tent. And frankly? Since most of us go out alone or with random people, all of us have plenty of solo shelters vs doubles. Doubles really only make sense if you hike with the same partner over and over. It works for us and there has never been any issues over the years.

Camp chores? Set up shelter. Get water. Cook dinner. Go tie off Ursack. Go to bed. Not that much to share really. We share water and Ursack duties often as mentioned.

Here's one--If we take my truck my buddies will pay for gas--If we take one of my other friends car then me and my other buddy will pay for gas. That's fair becuase of the ware and tare on the vehicle-right? We also play cards (Hearts) who ever looses takes out the trash (everybody's trash) and then also pay for burgers at In-N-Out...To be honest I am a very bad card player so I end up carrying out the trash and paying for alot of Double, Doubles. I am not complaining too much..Its all good!!

What's with the widespread fear of pee? It's not gonna kill somebody to pee on the plant two feet away from your tent, and it seems really inconvenient to bring a Howard Hughes-esque bottle just to have to walk 100 yards away from your tent every few hours, dump your pee waste, and walk back to camp. Trust me, the animals don't know and won't follow your defacatory rules, and a little pee in the soil never hurt anyone. Ah well, my list:

Always have a positive attitude, even if your partner doesn't.

All unsolicited hiking/packing/gear advice stops at the trailhead.

Everyone is responsible for their own shelter/cooking/food unless agreed upon beforehand (which of course it often is in groups, but the default is still for individual preparedness)

Don't do anything your hiking partner wouldn't do.

Plan the trip with your hiking partner beforehand. Failure to do so may result in mutiny.

Edited by artsandt on 12/11/2009 01:07:28 MST.

Jay,

I agree, farting in the woods is one very good reason to backpack in the first place.

Someone wrote an article on this very subject, in very humorous fashion: Here it is in its entirety:


Expedition Behavior
The Finer Points
Howard Tomb
A good expedition team is like a powerful, well-oiled, finely tuned marriage. Members cook meals together, carry burdens together and face challenges together.
A bad expedition, on the other hand, is an awkward, ugly, embarrassing thing characterized by bickering, filth, frustration and burned food.
Nearly all bad expeditions have one thing in common: poor expedition behavior (EB). This is true even if team members follow the stated rules, such as Don’t Step on the Rope, Kerosene and Food, No Soap in the River, No Raccoons in the Tent, Keep your Ice Axe Out of My Eye, etc.
Unfortunately, too many rules of expedition behavior remain unspoken. Some leaders seem to assume that their team members already have strong and generous characters like their own. But judging from a few of the campers we’ve encountered, more rules ought to be spelled out. Here are ten of them.

RULE #1 Get out of bed.
Suppose your tentmates get up early to fetch water and fire up the stove while you lie comatose in your sleeping bag. As they run an extensive equipment check, pack gear and fix your breakfast, they hear you start to snore. Last night you were their buddy; now they’re drawing up list of things about you that make them want to spit. They will devise cruel punishments for you. You have earned them. The team concept is now defunct. Had you gotten out of bed, nobody would have had to suffer.

RULE #2 Do not be cheerful before breakfast.
Some people wake up perky and happy as fluffy bunny rabbits. They put stress on those who wake up mean as rabid wolverines. Exhortations such as “Rise and shine, sugar!” and “Greet the dawn, pumkin!” have been known to provoke pungent words from rabid wolverine types. These curses, in turn, may offend fluffy bunny types. Indeed, they are issued with the sincere intent to offend. Thus, the day begins with flying fur and hurt feelings. The best early morning behavior is simple: Be quiet.

RULE #3 Do not complain.
About anything. Ever. It’s ten below zero, visibility is four inches and wind driven hailstones are embedding themselves in your face like shotgun pellets. Must you mention it? Do you think your friends haven’t noticed the weather? Make a suggestion. Tell a joke. Lead a prayer. Do NOT lodge a complaint! Your pack weighs 87 pounds and your cheap backpack straps are – surprise!, surprise!, - cutting into your flesh. Were you promised a personal sherpa? Did somebody cheat you out of a mule team? If you can’t carry your weight, get a motorhome.

RULE #4 Learn to cook at least one thing right.
One expedition trick is so old that it is no longer amusing: on the first cooking assignment, the clever cook prepares a dish that resembles, say, Burnt Socks in Toxic Waste Sauce. The cook hopes to be relieved permanently from cooking duties. This is the childish approach to a problem that’s been with us since people first started throwing dead lizards on the fire. Tricks are not a part of a team spirit. If you don’t like to cook, say so. Offer to wash dishes and prepare the one thing you do know how to cook. Even if it’s only tea. Remember that talented camp cooks sometimes get invited to join major expeditions in Nepal, all expenses paid.

RULE #5 Either A) Shampoo, or B) Do not remove your hat for any reason.
After a week or so on the trail, without shampooing, hair forms angry little clumps and wads. These leave the person beneath looking like an escapee from a mental ward. Such and appearance could shake a team’s confidence in your judgment. If you can’t shampoo, pull a wool hat down over your ears and leave it there, night and day, for the entire expedition.

RULE #6 Do not ask if anybody’s seen your stuff.
Experienced adventures have systems for organizing their gear. They very rarely leave it strewn around camp or lying back on the trail. One of the worst things you can do is ask your teammate if they’ve seen the tent poles you thought you packed 20 miles ago. Even in the unlikely event you get home alive, you will not be invited on the next trip. Should you ever leave the tent poles 20 miles away, do not ask if anybody’s seem them. Simply announce, with a good-natured chuckle, that you are about to set off in the dark on a 40 mile hike to retrieve them, and that you are sorry. It’s unprofessional to lose your spoon or your toothbrush. If something like that happens, don’t mention it to anyone.

RULE #7 Never ask where you are.
If you want to know where you are, look at the map. Try to figure it out yourself. If you’re still confused, feel free to discuss the identity of landmarks around you and how they correspond to the cartography. If you A) suspect that a mistake has been made; and B) have experience in interpreting topographical maps, and C) are certain that your group leader is wrong, speak up. Otherwise, follow the group like a sheep.

RULE #8 Always carry more than your fair share.
When the trip is over, would you rather be remembered as a rock or a sissy? Keep in mind that a pound or two of extra weight in your pack won’t make your back hurt any more than it already does. In any given group of flatlanders, somebody is bound to bicker about your weight. When an argument begins, take the extra weight yourself. Then shake your head and gaze with pity upon the slothful one. This is the mature response to childish behavior.

RULE # 9 Do not get sunburned.
Sunburn is not only painful and unattractive, it’s also an obvious sign of inexperience. Most green horns wait too long before applying sunscreen. Once you’ve burned on an expedition, you may not have a chance to get out of the sun. Then the burn gets burned, skin peels away, blisters sprout on the already swollen lips. Anyway, you get the idea. Wear zinc oxide. You can see exactly where and how thickly it’s applied and it gives you just about 100% protection. It does get on your sunglasses, all over your clothes and in your mouth. But that’s OK. Unlike sunshine, zinc oxide is non-toxic.

RULE #10 Do not get killed.
Suppose you make the summit of K2 solo and carrying the complete works of Hemingway in hardcover. Pretty macho, huh? Suppose now that you take a vertical detour down a crevasse and never make it back to camp. Would you still qualify as a hero? And would it matter? Nobody’s going to run any fingers through your new chest hair. The worst thing to have on your outdoor resume is the list of the possible locations of your body.

All expedition behavior really flows from this one principle: Think of your team, the beautiful machine, first. You are merely a cog in that machine. If you have something to prove, forget about joining an expedition. Your team will never have more than one member.

1. if you get hurt tell someone
2. help collect fire wood
3. share food, gear, fun
4. wait for slower hikers at junctions
5. don't complain


one of the best "large group" trips saw rule #3 taken to the extreme. everyone thought they would surprise the others with a can of beer for each member of the group. 6 guys, 36 beers. helped pass the 14 degree night nicely.

Edited by asciibaron on 12/29/2009 14:46:07 MST.

"Unfortunately, too many rules of expedition behavior remain unspoken. Some leaders seem to assume that their team members already have strong and generous characters like their own. But judging from a few of the campers we’ve encountered, more rules ought to be spelled out. Here are ten of them."

If this post is truly "tongue in cheek", please disregard the following comments. If it is serious, read on.

These rules read like something out of an Introduction to Backpacking manual for Cub Scouts or a parody of The Ten Commandments. There is a good reason that the rules governing expedition behavior remain unspoken: By the time people get to go on expeditions, they don't need to be told these things. Expedition members are generally selected according to Chennault's Corollary to the First Law of Expedition Planning: "Choose your partners carefully", for you go in harm's way.

Don't step on the rope is a formally stated rule? Huh??
The closest anybody who doesn't know that gets to rope is a 4' section of discarded Kern Mantle for practicing their clove hitches and square knots. ;-}

Great thread Jay.


As I have hiked with Jay in the past, I will say, that Jay is a fantastic host that shares everything he has, does scramble around for firewood when others won't (that would be me twice, once faced with altitude sickness and the other was when I was having some hypothermia issues).

I do agree on the: I brought my own beer and you should have your own. I also mention that I am bringing stuff and that it is mine. If you want to partake in some libations, then you should bring your own. As for special food, I think as a group everyone should bring something so that everyone shares.

One important rule that I follow is waiting for others at trail junctions, especially when hiking with my wife. She hikes MUCH slower than me (and I am slow too). I need to make sure she is taking the correct routes. That is just being a good hiking partner.

Also and example would be, checking and making sure you hiking partners are ok when not feeling well. Sickness of any kind in the backcountry can be dangerous.


When hiking with my wife, I usually take on more weight and than her to insure that she has an enjoyable time.

Okay, okay, here's mine:

1. Stay away from my scotch
2. Stay away from my hammock
3. Stay away from my food
4. Keep up, I'm not waiting
5. KEEP UP, I'M NOT WAITING (shouting in case you've fallen behind)
6. If I wanted to chat, I'd be in a diner
7. Your dog, however, can slobber all over my hammock, nibble at my food, and I'll talk to him/her throughout the hike.
8. But keep your dog away from my scotch

We have one major rule:
No whining!
You can make a generic statement about something, but you are not allowed to whine about it.
Second rule: It is what it is.

If I need to keep at my own pace and hug my beer all to myself then I'll go hike by myself. If I go with other people, though, it is for the very essence of sharing that I go with them. And when I meet people in the mountains I share anything that I can spare, happily so, even offering things like snacks and drinks without being asked, because that is one of the things about being in the wilderness that almost never happens in the city. I love the camaraderie that the mountains asks of us, of the cooperation born of hardship and powerlessness in the face of something so much bigger than ourselves. And I love what I believe should be the way people should be living with one another as a matter of course. It feels natural.

Of course, there is something to also having certain limits and rules, too. There are few amenities up there, after all, and people do get tired or upset when the burden falls too much upon them.

I agree with a lot of the points Sarah made. Her trips seem like a lot of fun. The before and after rules also make sense, because that rounds out the whole experience.

Some of my own observations:

- When walking on a brushy or loose rock trail make sure to either keep the branches from whipping back into the faces of the walkers behind you and call out to whoever is below, even if they are not in your group or you don't know if anyone is there, when you dislodge rocks that fall.

- Keep an eye on one another. Often someone who is not feeling well will feign cheerfulness or energy, though they might be hurting. Or, as often happens here in Japan where access to difficult climbs is often easy, make sure that newbies don't start hiking up the trail at three in the afternoon on a winter day. At the very least warn them about the danger.

- Keep an eye on one another's belongings. If someone places his pack at the edge of a cliff during a rest stop, make sure that the pack is safe from slipping away into oblivion. This happened to a buddy of mine once, when he turned to take a photograph. There was a gust of wind and when he turned back to the pack it had fallen 5,000 feet to the boulders below. Everything he needed for walking was in that pack. Luckily he was not alone.

- If you reach a relatively empty campsite area and you see one tent pitched out of the way, don't automatically plunk down your own tent next to theirs. They might want to be alone or get away from the snoring in other tents. Often asking if it is okay might make them feel awkward to refuse, so the best bet is to set your tent apart and then drop by to talk later if you want company and they are willing to share it. If they don't want to talk don't make them feel bad or ruin their experience just because you were rejected. They might have come up here to be alone.

- Just because you are in a group doesn't give you the privilege to make as much noise as you want. Remember that tents have thin walls and someone might be trying to sleep.

There are probably more, but here are some that I've thought about over the years.

Them some good rules: especially the dog section!

This is my kind of sharing

Last year on a short hike/camp about an hour into the trip a buddy and I stopped for a break. He went for his water and realized he forgot his bottle of booze back in the car.

I thought for a while, and told him I had a "Quart" for two nights. .94 Liters for you American folk :)

We both like to drink a bit the first night and sleep in the next day on these short hikes.. Its just a weekend away from the city.

Anyways, I said give me your gear if you want to go get it.. about 30 pounds of it. I strapped my pack to his because his was heavier than my 22 pounds. Told him to go Jogging and I would set up camp.

It was only about a 3 hour hike.. by the time I got there he was only 25 minutes behind me. He's in much better shape than I am!

I set up his tent, then mine as soon as I got there. Got some water and took a little break by the river..

He comes into camp with his bottle... I was suprised. Told him to take a break, gave him a mars bar and told him "I still had to go grab some firewood"

He sat down with me and pointed to a large bunch of bushes along the river side. He said "there is probably lots of wood over there"

We walked over after a break and beyond the bushes I stumble across a huge pile of dead wood.. I said "s@#t check this out" he said "betcha its a pile of wood" and laughed.

I laughed too and I know this guy hiked out there with his dog the weekend before and must have spent a good 4 hours collecting every single peice of dead wood out there.

btw his Dog is un-effing-believable at bringing wood back.. He does it all night and we give him treats for it.

Anyways... we were generous in our own ways and it made the tale of our trip all that much better!

IMO You have so much more to gain by hiking with the right friends!

You guys in America dont use liters either do ya lol... 1/4 or so of a gallon then?

I only have three rules, only two of which are stated:

Stated and discussed with hiking partner(s): 1. Tell me everything about pain and how you are generally feeling. If your feet hurt, I get to know. If you're dehydrated, I get to know. Cold/Hot/Etc? Same answer. And I will do the same. Reason? If you can't help yourself, I'm the only one you got. Same if the roles are reversed.

2. Talk about the expectations of the trip before the trip. Solo, I like to hike from dawn to just before dusk. And I walk fast. With my fiancee, we hike only as long, far and fast and each of us can go. Know what you're getting into before you leave. The trip will be much more fun.

Unstated: Enter the woods with only those you trust. You learn a lot about a person by observing how they hike and what they do when they hike. And what they do when life gets real.

The rest of the so-called rules are dependent on general social graces. With a hiker funk, of course.

Also, @Doug: I laughed when I read 4 and 5 (especially the latter), but it's not my style.

Edited by citystuckhiker on 03/09/2010 21:09:25 MST.

"You guys in America dont use liters either do ya lol... 1/4 or so of a gallon then?"

People are trying to force us though.

Most of use don't do centimeters, milimeters, meters, kilometers, Celcius, etc.

:)

"Also, @Doug: I laughed when I read 4 and 5 (especially the latter), but it's not my style."

Hi Matt! Laughter (chuckle, grin, etc....) is what I was after. I wrote the whole thing with UL tongue planted firmly in UL cheek! Well, most of it anyway..... ;-)

>UL tongue planted firmly in UL cheek

UL tongue and cheeks? Is that a surgical procedure?

What, you mean you haven't had lipo on your tongue and cheeks? And you call yourself UL!

Well, I have been getting titanium bone replacements.....

"8. But keep your dog away from my scotch"

A rule which to live by, lol. Nice one Doug.