David Ure stinks!

Anyway, no thanks to him, I'm eying the NeoAir. For those who've used both pads stated above, how do the two compare in warmth? What are we giving up when we go from BA to Thermarest -- in pursuit of ever-lighter pack weight?

Ben - ironically I think there are a few people on this forum as of late that would agree with you. Alas for other reasons.

Just pm'd you.

Got your PM, thanks. Now I am really tempted. Curse you, David!!!

Edited by ben2world on 12/07/2009 13:38:39 MST.

hey guys, assuming its nothing too personal and IS about the BA and Neoair, is it good information for someone who also has the BA and is eyeing the Neoair?

Hi Ben,

IMHO the NeoAir is similarly warm and a full measure more comfortable. You're giving up a not insignificant amount of cash and gaining comfort and pack space while shedding some weight.

Does David not shower? Do I want to know?

Cheers,

Rick

Wow, shedding weight while gaining comfort AND maintaining the same warmth? You guys are nothin' but a bunch of enablers!


Edit: Just clicked the "BUY" button. Curse you both!

Kidding aside, thanks for your feedback.

"hey guys, assuming its nothing too personal and IS about the BA and Neoair, is it good information for someone who also has the BA and is eyeing the Neoair?"

Hi Travis - I was actually responding to a PM from Ben regarding his question above.

I summed up the note like this:

Pros - Warm to freezing, at least for me. Super small packed size. Spec'd weight spot on. Really comfy for a side sleeper.

Cons - Takes a few breathes to blow up. Durability (? have not had an issue over 30 nights with mine). Crinkly? I don't notice any noise. Expensive for some.

Thanks David. Do you have any experience with sleeping on frozen ground versus cold ground regarding pad warmth? Basically in the fall, the ground is sometimes warmer than the air since it has not had a chance to really freeze, even though it is cold. I wonder how much actual *frozen* ground affects the insulation properties of pads in comparison to ground that is not frozen, even though it may be 10 degrees out. Hopefully my question is understandable!

Oh I think conductive heat loss will be substantial if the ground is frozen and the air isn't! Although I haven't, one could pair the NeoAir with a closed cell pad.

If I suspected that the ground was going to be frozen, I would use my Exped #7 down mat. I like to sleep well!

Thats what I figured too. I wonder if anyone out there has any of those nifty charts for that!

"I wonder how much actual *frozen* ground affects the insulation properties of pads in comparison to ground that is not frozen, even though it may be 10 degrees out."

I'll let you know in a couple of weeks if you remind me! I'll be sleeping on my NeoAir with either a GG 1/8" Thinlight or a Ridgerest over the Dec. 19 weekend. Temps are cold enough now that I think the ground will be frozen. I'm using it with an MLD Soul bivy. The NeoAir will be on the outside (won't quite fit inside), not sure about the other pad yet. Will definitely put the CCF between me and the NeoAir. I've done this when the outside temps were near freezing during the night and was pretty warm (with the Thinlight).

I have no experience with the BA; my pad is a POE Insulmat Max Thermo (older version of Ether Thermo).

I ditched the NeoAir. It isn't warm enough below freezing. The POE will take me down to 20*F without supplement, but I *froze* in the NeoAir at 20* with a 1/8" GG Thinlight pad. The POE pad for me is a lot more comfortable--blown up halfway it keeps my spine straight when I'm on my side while keeping my hip off the ground. I never could quite get that sweet spot with the NeoAir, and I also kept rolling off it. I thought I'd be able to adapt to it, but I finally decided it wasn't worth the weight savings. Unless most of your backpacking is in a warm area, the weight savings of the NeoAir aren't that great if you have to carry a 3/8" to 1/2" CCF pad to be warm below freezing!

Admittedly I'm a cold sleeper and have big hips, so your mileage may vary. Just be sure to get it from a place like REI with a liberal return policy!

EDIT: I didn't expect the NeoAir to be a 4-season sleeping pad--it is not intended to be such--but I did expect that with a little boost from the Thinlite I'd be able to take it to the Washington Cascades at the beginning of October!

Edited by hikinggranny on 12/07/2009 19:57:02 MST.

Honestly, I don't have enough sleeping nights to really tell you the difference between the two on cold nights but I'm a side sleeper and I love the neoair. I got a large which weighs more or less the same as the regular ba and I'm so much more comfortable. It's made a huge difference in the night sleep I get. Both pack down compact and I've had both down in to the low 20's and been comfortable with my wm bag and layers.

Hey Ben,

I have been using the NeoAir since last spring and am still pretty impressed. I reviewed it at the other site here;

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Sleep%20Gear/Pads%20and%20Air%20Mattresses/Therm-a-Rest%20Neo%20Air%20Pad/Owner%20Review%20by%20Ray%20Estrella/

I still think that the IAC is more comfortable to sleep directly on as the NeoAir is somewhat plastic feeling. I also like the lengthwise chambers of the IAC better than the crosswise chambers of the NeoAir. I too have noticed the collapsing edge syndrome that some have written about.

But I love the thing. The weight and size keep me grabbing it. I was at 25 F with it last weekend in the Santa Rosa Mountains and was not cold. I have been putting a ¼” ThinLight pad under it mostly to protect it from the desert floor but I am sure it lends some R-value too. I guess my next experiment will be to take it up to Mt San Jacinto later this month and use it in the snow to see if I freeze or not. I will have to take a back up just in case though.

Have fun with it,

I have both the Large and the Small NeoAir pads as well as the BA Insulated Air Core.

The Large NeoAir is amazing (long, wide and comfortable) but at 18 ounces it is 9 ounces heavier than my small NeoAir (but still 6 ounces lighter than the BA pad). When base camping the Large NeoAir gets packed but when continuous travel is involved the lighter NeoAir comes along. Nice to have choices! The BA pad doesn't get used by me anymore.

I hiked with a NeoAir regular length for the entire length of the PCT and except for a hole I punctured in the top of the pad due to careless placement of a pen in my pocket, the thing was bulletproof.

I hiked for about a week inin freezing temps. At night it got down consistently in the 8-15 degree range. The NeoAir performed fairly well, keeping me warmer but I could still feel the cold of the pad; I carried a 10 degree bag with overfill and wore merino wool long underwear, warm socks and would layer a couple of jackets; a montbell down jacket and the thermawrap. The ground was rock-hard, waterfalls and streams had frozen over. I was glad the NeoAir got me off the ground, but I am sure there are pads more suited for cold weather out there.

That much said it was really comfortable and for that reason, I would not hesitate to take it again. (Perhaps I would carry a lightweight foam pad as well if I headed out again into the cold).

I will say this about lightweight backpacking: I would be wary of cutting warmth for the sake of a few ounces. I dislike being cold. I carried extra gloves, extra socks, and like I said, two lightweight jackets I could layer if need be (which wasn't often - even in cold weather I could generate body heat. But when it's cold, wet and you stop to make camp, I was thankful for every precious layer.)

Dirk

Dirk,

I was just about to post a question regarding sub-freezing NeoAir use, so I read your post with interest.

Did you supplement the NeoAir with a CCF of any kind? By itself, the r-value rated 2.5 NeoAir certainly isn't made to go down to 8-15 degrees.

So the only puncture came from your pen? I was just wondering this week about the delicacy of the fabric in cold weather; specifically, if the moisture from my breath while inflating might crystalize in very cold temps and damage the inner baffles or even cause cold a leak in the very thin fabric

I also worry about the zippers of the jackets I would be wearing to supplement my quilt, but I have a GG 1/8" thinlight I can put on top of it to protect it.

Anybody else with opinions/experience with this please chime in. This is the first winter(showing my Northern Hemisphere bias) for the NeoAir, and I'm wondering how/if it will perform.

Jim –
My experience in cold weather was limited to a couple of weeks at the end of my PCT adventure. Admittedly, the top of the NeoAir felt cold to the touch on several of those nights, but was much warmer than lying on the ground. My hiking partners used other pads that were fairly worn and they suffered accordingly. I wore an excess of clothing in a very good bag and stayed warm. I am sure if I had another pad to put underneath the NeoAir, performance could have been significantly improved.
The NeoAir seemed to hold up in the cold just fine – although I did harbor a bit of concern with unfolding/refolding it repeatedly in the cold. I didn’t notice any ill-effects, but please note, this spate of cold weather came during the final weeks of our adventure. Had we been in-and-out of cold weather for a longer period of time, perhaps I’d have more definitive results.
Crystallization from your breath is a concern – I am uncertain how it would perform over time, especially in cold temps for weeks on end.. I wish I had better information for you, but I am afraid I do not.
The hole in the top of the NeoAir was definitely a result of my pen. I brought a Thermarest patch kit with me and performed a repair in the field that held up very nicely thus far (about three weeks of use).

The repair was rather straightforward – what wasn’t as easy was finding the leak (had to submerge in water, which is a bit of a trick. Even with it submerged I had to jostle it around for a while until I isolated and marked the leak).

I also should note that I slept in a UL tent with a Gossamer Gear polycro ground sheet for most of the trip before switching to the more substantial MSR Hubba for the final 500 miles. This obviously offered additional protection to the bottom of the NeoAir.

Again, I’d be really interested in seeing how these pads hold up over time in cold weather. Performance was to me, acceptable, but again, I carried a bag made for cold weather and wore a good deal of clothing.


Dirk

I've been searching for a Neoair for several weeks now and keep striking out.
I know they are available online but i just want to hold one.

My local Gander mtn and REI were both sold-out on every size.