Don't take this wrong if I'm mistaken. I just want to clear something up. There seems to be an idea overseas that in America you can carry a gun whenever and whereever you want. Just to set things straight it ain't so. Getting a gun is a bit easier but gun sales are regulated. Carrying a gun outside of hunting in the woods is also regulated a concealed gun around town is a big no-no and usually merits a felony. You can get a concealed carry permit but these require a safetly class and a rather extensive background check.
The point is the USA is not a "gunslinger" nation. We have laws they're just hard to enforce.

Edited by Cameron on 12/03/2009 18:23:14 MST.

"What? Signed on the other day and wasn't sure I was in the right place"

Oh, very much so , Hartley. I think it is instructive that the Second Amendment to our Constitution which, generously construed, grants the right to bear arms to one and all(with a few minor exceptions), is preceded only by the First Amendment, which unconditionally grants to one and all the right to talk about the Second Amendment, and talk about it, and talk about it.......

It is further instructive to note that fully half of today's posts take full advantage of that constitutional right. It speaks volumes about the nature of American society, especially when juxtaposed with the content of mass media, crime statistics and the sheer lunacy of some of the debates in Congress about what, if any, limits should be placed on the Second Amendment. Should Barett rifles be legally sold? Assault rifles? Armour piercing ammunition, colloquially referred to as cop killers? How about the right to bear a handgun with a 30 round clip? I'm sure you understand where I'm going with this. Hunting is a side show, since only a very few people would advocate banning it. The real action concerns weapons whose main and, arguably, only purpose is killing other human beings.

I'm sure it is a puzzling state of affairs to those of you who grew up on the other side of the Pond. Bear with us a few centuries while we sort it out. After all, it took you guys a couple of thousand years. :)

my apologies. my post really didn't belong here.

Edited by idester on 12/03/2009 18:31:38 MST.

1. fire-arms are illegal in most national parks around the world. For example, you cannot take them into Australia's national parks and I understand that is also the situation in the US.

Not so fast, Arapiles. Watch.

"Well thanks a lot Tom! Now I've got to clean this snot from all over my computer screen! Good thing I wasn't drinking milk!"

I'm sorry, Douglas. It was downright insensitive of me to do that during cold/flu season, let alone dinner time. ;-)

"Cranberries, Cranberries, throw off your chains!"

Breatharians of the world unite! Carpe diem.

This didn't really fit so I took it down.

Edited by Cameron on 12/03/2009 18:39:01 MST.

Hi Luke,

No misunderstanding at all! We agree on much. I am, after all, living a peaceful life myself! Well, for the most part anyway...... ;-)

Take care,

Doug

Here's an email forwarded to me by my RedNeck NRA mother...it illustrates nicely the confusion many Americans have about what it means to be "armed". You need to read to the end for the PS to understand the absurdity of the tail, as both men were "armed", but one man was better armed than the other. Basically the "right to bear any and all arms" just leads to an arms race!

AN ACTUAL CRAIG'S LIST PERSONALS AD

To the Guy Who Tried to Mug Me in Downtown Savannah night before last.

Date: 2009-05-27, 1:43 a.m.

I was the guy wearing the black Burberry jacket that you demanded that I hand over, shortly after you pulled the knife on me and my girlfriend, threatening our lives. You also asked for my girlfriend's purse and earrings. I can only hope that you somehow come across this rather important message.

First, I'd like to apologize for your embarrassment; I didn't expect you to actually crap in your pants when I drew my pistol after you took my jacket. The evening was not that cold, and I was wearing the jacket for a reason. My girlfriend had just bought me that Kimber Model 1911 .45 ACP pistol for my birthday, and we had picked up a shoulder holster for it that very evening. Obviously you agree that it is a very intimidating weapon when pointed at your head ... isn't it?!

I know it probably wasn't fun walking back to wherever you'd come from with that brown sludge in your pants. I'm sure it was even worse walking bare-footed since I made you leave your shoes, cell phone, and wallet with me. [That prevented you from calling or running to your buddies to come help mug us again].

After I called your mother or "Momma" as you had her listed in your cell, I explained the entire episode of what you'd done. Then I went and filled up my gas tank as well as those of four other people in the gas station, -- on your credit card. The guy with the big motor home took 150 gallons and was extremely grateful!

I gave your shoes to a homeless guy outside Vinnie Van Go Go's, along with all the cash in your wallet. [That made his day!]

I then threw your wallet into the big pink "pimp mobile" that was parked at the curb ... after I broke the windshield and side window and keyed the entire driver's side of the car.

Later, I called a bunch of phone sex numbers from your cell phone. Ma Bell just now shut down the line, although I only used the phone for a little over a day now, so what 's going on with that? Earlier, I managed to get in two threatening phone calls to the DA's office and one to the FBI, while mentioning President Obama as my possible target.

The FBI guy seemed really intense and we had a nice long chat (I guess while he traced your number etc.).

In a way, perhaps I should apologize for not killing you ... but I feel this type of retribution is a far more appropriate punishment for your threatened crime. I wish you well as you try to sort through some of these rather immediate pressing issues, and can only hope that you have the opportunity to reflect upon, and perhaps reconsider, the career path you've chosen to pursue in life. Remember, next time you might not be so lucky.Have a good day!

Thoughtfully yours,
Alex

P.S. Remember this motto ... An armed society makes for a more civil society!

Lynn are you sure thats not someones idea of a joke? If this actually happened do you think this would fit the definition of "Cruel and Unusual Punishment."

Luke, I have no idea if it happened or not. I suspect not. it was merely to illustrate the confusion that many (yes, includes my US family) people have over what it means to be 'armed'. In this case, My mother forwarded this to me because she agrees that using a knife is not 'armed', whereas carrying a pistol is. To me, it just reflects the whole idea of an arms race where the best armed society is the safest. This is not an idea that I could ever support.

Anyway, I fully support the use of 'arms' (includes rifles, bow and arrow, knife, snares, fishing gear, traps etc...) for hunting to control vermin and supply food where needed, and the Pak-Rifle seems ideal for that UL purpose when used on small game. I do not support Joe Public carrying arms as a matter of course in daily urban life. Leave it for the police...but of course Americans have that pesky second amendment...

My mother also sent me an email asking me to boycott the new $1 coins because they removed "In God We Trust" from them. Now this I find beyond absurd, especially as an American who recognises the fundamental requirement in our constitution for separation of church and state. Pity the poor Buddhist, atheist or Hindu living in America who have no god or many gods! I believe the biggest driver of original immigration to the US was escape from religious persecution...there are many anomalies in the American constitution and it's interpretation, to say the least, including the use of the term "rights" to many things that are really just privileges. Our forefathers were far-sighted in their draft of the constitution, but they could have never anticipated the incredible rate of social change that the world has undergone since then.

I thought this was about guns?

Oh well, you brought it up .....

Separation of Church and State ..... this was a mechanism put in place to prevent the state from dictating what religion one MUST practice, as had been the case in Europe for so many years, given the discord between monarchs and Rome. How many people lost their lives because they supported one flavor of religion over another?

It has been twisted, as so many other ideals that this country was founded on, to mean something completely different today. It does not say separation of God and State, which seems to be the popular definition these days. The founding fathers left more than enough examples that the separation of God and State was NOT their intent.

Like it or not, America was founded by Christians for the primary purpose of being able to pursue a religious life free of persecution, it was not founded by Atheists, or Hindu, or Buddhists, or any other religious or non-religious group.

As such Christianity is an integral part of our culture and our History and that is just a simple fact.

It is wonderful that anyone, religious or not, can worship or not worship to their liking in the good ol' USA ... but I think it more than foolish to destroy our very culture because of that fact.

In God we Trust should remain on our currency if for no other reason than to celebrate that culture and history, maintaining our sense of identity as a people, by reminding us where we came from and what freedoms we enjoy because of the desires that spawned our nation.

My 2 cents.

>>>The founding fathers left more than enough examples that the separation of God and State was NOT their intent.<<<

Would you please share some of those examples?





In the words of perhaps the most important "thought leader" of their day:

"I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

But, lest it should be supposed that I believe in many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

- Thomas Paine

"All right, all this posts needs now to be complete is Dave T to swing by and complain about how off track it is while simultaneously tossing several Molotov cocktails into the works...! :-)"

Yeah, he's a one man Monkey Wrench Gang alright. Edward Abbey would be proud.

Dave, where ARE you now that we need you? I know, I know, rolling around on the floor gasping for breath and clutching your ribs

Nice! Guns, god, censorship and global calamity all in a single day. I'm so glad that the BPL community has been able to tackle and resolve all the contentious issues of our day.

"Like it or not, America was founded by Christians for the primary purpose of being able to pursue a religious life free of persecution, it was not founded by Atheists, or Hindu, or Buddhists, or any other religious or non-religious group. "

well..........

"According to the U.S. Dept. of Treasury, the motto 'In God We Trust' came about not at the time of the Constitutional Conventions, but due to increased pressures to recognize God on coins and money during the Civil War. In April 22, 1864, Congress passed an Amendment authorizing the motto to be placed on the two-cent coin. It appeared on various coins throughout the years, and appeared on paper money in 1957. The phrase was eventually printed on all paper bills, superseding the motto "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) adopted by the Union in 1782."

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."
- Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith." - Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776.)

But, to be fair, there were SOME among the founders who did believe as you do....

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations." - Patrick Henry

"That religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience." - Patrick Henry (Virginia Bill of Rights, June 12, 1776.)

>"I do not support Joe Public carrying arms as a matter of course in daily urban life. Leave it for the police...but of course Americans have that pesky second amendment..."

Thanks for the reminder. I'm not Joe Public, but it was close enough to remind me that I need to take my refresher course to renew my license before March.......

sorry tom.

all my feigned righteous and anachronistic upset-ness is currently focused on the troops that are attempting to quarter in my apartment.

i {heart} the bill of rights.

Edited by DaveT on 12/04/2009 02:21:07 MST.

Douglas ...

Please don't infer what I "believe" or don't believe from one thread post. I AM NOT ADVOCATING ONE RELIGION OVER ANOTHER, I am trying to state historical fact.

I see nothing in what you've posted, unless you take individual statements from my post out of context, that disputes my central thesis ....religion is a part of our HISTORY and our Culture. As such, the memory of what transpired to get here should NOT just be wiped away.

Although your historical references are VERY interesting. 1957 huh ..... I didn't know that.