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Douglas Frick
(Otter) - MLife

Locale: Wyoming
combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/22/2006 11:42:03 MST Print View

I'm working on a low-volume gear list (650ci/10l) for overnight trips. I might have room for a very small stove (such as Sgt. Rock's Ion) if I can find a water bottle that can double as a pot. Something like a lexan Nalgene with screw lid, except made of thin aluminum or titanium.

REI carries the Kleen Kanteen, stainless steel, 8 oz. for 27 fl oz.; and the Coleman Expedition Apex fuel bottle, aluminum, 4.9 oz for 22 fl oz. Two questions about fuel bottles: are they uncoated, and are they thin enough to pass heat reasonably well? My SIGG fuel bottle (aluminum, 3.5 oz. for 20 fl oz.) appears to be rather thick. I'm also going to look at those aluminum energy drink cans with screw lids and try to find a 1-liter version.

Any suggestions? Any "out of the box" ideas?

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/22/2006 12:17:06 MST Print View

Interesting question; are you looking to just heat water?

I'll guess you could boil water in a Sigg bottle--I doubt the thickness would be a problem because aluminum conducts heat so well. Any exterior coating will scorch though, and if you've carried fuel in it the taste might be difficult to eliminate. Why not give it a try?

Sigg still makes aluminum bicycle-style drinking water bottles with screw-on pop-up tops (I don't believe they make fuel bottles any longer). Such narrow bottles probably aren't particularly efficient on a typical stove, but an extra ounce or two of fuel likely wouldn't undo your weight savings.

Better would be one of the discontinued MSR titanium fuel bottles, should you be able to find one. They're light, strong and have no coating of any kind.

I'll venture a guess that there are probably "designer" aluminum liquor bottles you might press into service. Also, perhaps oddball food containers such as cooking oil, etc. Those marketing folks never sleep.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/22/2006 13:16:15 MST Print View

I once got an energy drink can with a screw top, I have posted some pics of my energy drink can pots, this would be a little taller because you dont cu off the top, so if you dont think you would have a flat surface, I would not count on it, but it works perfectly with an elite style stove

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/22/2006 14:17:02 MST Print View

The Sigg drinking bottles have some sort of coating so they don't react with acidic stuff like citrus or tomato juice. I think you'll find most of the aluminum food containers will have a coating.

So you want to carry water and cook in it too?

These guys sell uncoated aluminum containers with screw top lids. I might trust them for liquids in an outside pocket, but not inside.

http://www.freundcontainer.com/catalog.asp?category=89

I've seen stainless steel pot/cup gizmo's that slide over the outside of a 1 liter Nalgene bottle, but they are too heavy. A titanium one would be great on a space saving basis.

I could imagine any manufacurer having kittens over the idea of some knumbskull putting their sealed container on the stove--- big noise/short life expectancy!

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/22/2006 14:17:59 MST.

Douglas Frick
(Otter) - MLife

Locale: Wyoming
Re: Re: Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/22/2006 14:40:22 MST Print View

I just want to boil water and maybe make jello, hot chocolate or really runny oatmeal. It's only one or two meals, so I don't have to get it clean in the field. My pack for this gear is a Mountainsmith Tour fanny with two mesh bottle holders on the sides, so I have room for a bottle but not a pot.


>I once got an energy drink can with a screw top


I saw your pics and they prompted me to go on a three-hour tour of the local grocery stores. I finally found aluminum Elements Energy bottle (18 fl. oz; 2.5 oz) and Budweiser beer bottle (16 fl. oz; 2.1 oz; no cap). I was hoping some vodka company might use an aluminum bottle, but no luck. The Elements bottle doesn't appear to be coated, but it probably is. I'm going to boil water in it and see if the coating comes off. I also found aluminum sports bottles on-line in various sizes up to 1 liter, but my initial references were bulk purchases with company logos (which might be my solution especially if I can get the company to pay for them :). I'll look further.


>I've seen stainless steel pot/cup gizmo's that slide over the outside of a 1 liter Nalgene bottle


Ahh, there's an idea! The 1 liter Nalgene hard-bottle (which also holds my UV Aquastar sterilizer) fits perfectly inside a Snow Peak Trek 700 Ti pot (6.3 oz + 4.8 oz = 11.1 oz), and for a lighter combo, various plastic bottles (including 18 oz. Power-Ade and 20.6 oz Trek sports drinks) fit tightly inside a 24 oz. Heineken keg pot (1.5 oz + 1.2 oz = 2.7 oz). The Trek 700 Ti and Heine pots fit in the mesh bottle pockets. The Power-Ade/Heine combo is 0.2 oz heavier than the Elements bottle for the same bottle volume, but the Heine pot has more bottom area and can boil more water than the Elements bottle. (It also won't overflow on a rolling boil.) This seems like a better solution than a dual-use bottle/pot, at least until I can find a 1-liter uncoated aluminum wide-mouth bottle.

Edited by Otter on 03/22/2006 16:22:15 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Re: Re: Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/22/2006 16:41:18 MST Print View

>three-hour tour of the local grocery stores

sorry to have sent you on a wild goose chase. I guess they are not available everywhere.

Some may be interested in this screw top I once found at a 7-11 or gas station or something(usually find normal kinds at the grocery store)

Image hosting by Photobucket

Image hosting by Photobucket

Image hosting by Photobucket

Image hosting by Photobucket

Some interesting stove could probably be made with this kind of can, or of course it would work as the pot/water bottle. But I would not recomend using the lid for the pot mode, it would be too tight

Edited by ryanf on 03/22/2006 16:42:32 MST.

Inaki Diaz de Etura
(inaki) - MLife

Locale: Iberia highlands
Re: Re: Re: Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/23/2006 14:07:00 MST Print View

> I was hoping some vodka company might use an aluminum bottle, but no luck.

I once found this:







It holds 0.7 l. and weights 108 gr. or 3.8 oz (96 gr. without the cap). The bottom diameter is 7.5 cm.

The cap is liquid tight. I've boiled water in it at home but never tried it outside.

Brian James
(bjamesd) - F

Locale: South Coast of BC
coatings on 03/23/2006 15:14:57 MST Print View

A consideration in any such undertaking is the characteristics of their coatings and components at temperature. Remeber that they're only certified food-grade in their intended application; i.e. containing consumable liquids at perhaps than half of boiling temperature. (I don't know that they'd fail at high temperatures, but *could* they?)

Supposedly, even disposable plastic drink bottles can become toxic when washed with scalding water, although I don't know if I buy that one...

When I was 10, a kid in my class heated water in a paper cup over a burner as a science project. I can also remember reading in bushcraft manuals that water can be heated in large leaves -- I've never tried that one out though. Could something we overlook serve this purpose? Suppose the water only needs to go to 80 degrees C: is there a membrane out there that's heat-conductive enough that the water would protect it from combusting/degrading in the flame?

I'm thinking even of foil packages... that would be even better. Or could a drinking container be formed out of titanium foil, orikaso-style?

My 2 cents (CAD!)

EDIT: what about asking this question in reverse -- can a titanium pot or mug be sealed for use as a water vessel? Sounds like an opportunity for a cottage industry; anybody?

Edited by bjamesd on 03/23/2006 15:25:22 MST.

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Re: coatings and boiling water in a paper cup on 03/23/2006 18:10:42 MST Print View

Boiling water or hard boiled eggs in a paper cup is a common Boy Scout competition. It works because water absorbs the heat from the cup bottom and walls well before it gets to 451F, the temperature that paper burns at.


There are a couple of issues:

1) It's going to burn above the level where the water is because there's little to keep the temperature from going above papers' flash point.

2) You need an "exit strategy" on how you're going to get the boiling water out of the cup, particularly if the top has burned off and the flames are still going (ie open fire)

I've tried this with an isopropane stove, it works fine on a low setting.

I assume it would also work with plastic, but haven't tried it.


I have a picture of it, but don't have a place to post it. I can email it if someone has a home for it and wants to post it.

MikeB

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/24/2006 12:55:10 MST Print View

.....The 1 liter Nalgene hard-bottle (which also holds my UV Aquastar sterilizer) fits perfectly inside a Snow Peak Trek 700 Ti pot (6.3 oz + 4.8 oz = 11.1 oz),.....

That was my thought. I have a couple of the stainless cups that fit around a 1 liter Nalgene-- they are 5+ ounces, but cheap and sturdy. They make them a lot thicker than need be. Campmor has them for $6 -- search on "Olicamp Space Saver Cup". They claim 4.7oz, but my recollection is over 5oz. I'll check that if I can find them.

If you want to use a cup-sized Ti pot, why not just hang it off your fanny pack with a mini-biner? I don't like stuff dnagling off my pack, but a cup shouldn't make you too crazy. If you don't want the weight of the UV sterilizer and the obligatory container, you could go to Aqua Mira and recycled plastic bottles, dropping about 9 ounces off what must be a tiny load.

Added comment:

I measured my Olicamp cups: one came in at 5.1oz, the other 5.3oz. Removing the handles drops the weight by 0.9oz. Still not bone crushing heavy and a great starter pot for someone on a budget-- $6 beats $30-$40 on a Ti pot and it does slip nicely around the Nalgene. It needs a little tin foil for a lid.

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/24/2006 20:01:07 MST.

Douglas Frick
(Otter) - MLife

Locale: Wyoming
Re: Re: coatings and boiling water in a paper cup on 03/25/2006 11:03:53 MST Print View

>Boiling water or hard boiled eggs in a paper cup is a common Boy Scout competition.[...]I assume it would also work with plastic, but haven't tried it.


This is the same problem mentioned by an earlier poster: chemical toxins in the bottle or lining. It's probably OK for boiling eggs, but I intend to drink the water so I don't want bad stuff in it.

I'll keep looking for an uncoated metal bottle, but at this point a separate plastic water bottle and untralight pot seems the best solution.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/25/2006 23:10:20 MST Print View

We've been talking about pots, but the stove should be looked at. With the low volume kit(and I really like that concept a lot), an Esbit wing stove and fuel would be easier to stow and might make for more pot options. I'd go for the Nalgene and a Ti pot that fits around it.

Other water carrying options? Find a lumbar hydration bag with enough extra storage capacity-- you don't have to fill the bladder all the way either.


(Anonymous)
maybe these? on 03/26/2006 01:05:08 MST Print View

http://www.freundcontainer.com/catalog.asp?category=89

Douglas Frick
(Otter) - MLife

Locale: Wyoming
Re: Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/26/2006 10:19:35 MST Print View

>With the low volume kit(and I really like that concept a lot), an Esbit wing stove and fuel would be easier to stow and might make for more pot options.


Sgt. Rock's Ion kit (1.2 oz) includes stove, pot stand, windscreen, base reflector and stuff sack. That's less than my Esbit wing stove alone (1.3 oz), although the BPL Ti wing stove is lighter than mine. Fuel wouldn't be very heavy either way, as I'd carry 2 fl oz of alcohol v. two Esbit tabs.


>Find a lumbar hydration bag with enough extra storage capacity


This is a lumbar pack, but I suppose it could be replaced. I'm afraid I might not have enough volume if I lost 1-2 liters of internal space, while the Tour has two 1-liter water pockets on the outside.

One reason for choosing the UV Aquastar over Aqua Mira is that I can sterilize water and drink it immediately. This way I can tank up at streams and still have 2 liters for dry camping, whereas with AM I wouldn't have as much left in camp. It also allows me to carry only 1 liter of water when streams are frequent, which is a weight savings of 2 pounds.

Equipment is always open to reconsideration, of course, and once I've got a stable kit I'll see if I can make system changes that save weight.


>Anon wrote: Maybe These?: http://www.freundcontainer.com/catalog.asp?category=89


The largest cylinder is 700ml, and the weight unknown. I expect I'd have to add some plastic wrap to keep the water from leaking out through the threads. Anybody know the weight?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: combo Water Bottle and Pot on 03/27/2006 12:35:54 MST Print View

They are really thin gauge-- lighter than a fuel bottle or any pot, and just a bit more than a beer can. I don't think I have the 700ml one to weigh. I make percussion instruments and I bought a bunch of samples from Freund to test as shakers.

The lids have the usual plastic/cardboard seal that you find in something like a mayonaise jar lid. A little reseach may come up with a flat rubber washer, or Freund may be able to supply one. A thin layer of silicone might do the trick too. You could make a spreader to rest on the lid edge to apply it to a consistent thickness.

The threads are a little dicey-- prone to jamming. You can actually jam them by trying to twist too hard. I guess the can deforms.

They are cheap and they are light-- no doubt there.

Brennan Metcalf
(Metcalf) - F
Here you go on 10/17/2006 22:28:21 MDT Print View

I hope this helps...

Guyot wide mouth

Its from here.

www.guyotdesigns.com

Edited by Metcalf on 10/17/2006 22:31:01 MDT.

Michael Mangold
(mkmangold) - F
Metal cans on 11/06/2006 18:32:53 MST Print View

So, following this thread, my sons and I did a little experimenting. We found "Energy" drink cans and boiled water in them using different types of lightweight stoves. An Altoids box alcohol stove boiled 532 ml of water in 10 minutes. It used about 2 1/2 capfuls of alcohol from a lexan fuel hip flask.
How can I add pics to this post? I've now integrated the Energy bottle, a solar lexan water bottle, an alcohol *BEEP* esbit stobe into a fanny pack and have pics to prove it. It's really an interesting mobile kitchen that doubles as a solar hot water collector.
Thanks

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Guyout or KleanKanteen on 11/07/2006 07:28:10 MST Print View

I've considered trying a Klean Kanteen (as DF mentioned) as a combo water bottle / pot.

Michael, when composing a post there is a 'insert image at cursor' button that will allow you to upload images.

Edited by jdmitch on 11/07/2006 07:28:52 MST.

Michael Mangold
(mkmangold) - F
Re: Metal cans on 11/07/2006 09:51:11 MST Print View

Thanks Josh:This one is of the Energy can in a cozy with clip

I tried both the Jolt can and the Energy can and prefer the latter: the walls are stronger, the lid screws on tighter, and at 532 ml, it balances in my fanny pack better with the 500 ml lexan bottle:Pretty balanced pack: I'm using this combo more often now than the hydration pack
The Altoids stove can be used alone but I bought a $5.00 esbit stove and pellets for backup. Nestled inside the esbit stove, the Altoids burner has a ready-made windscreen:Altoids container inside esbit stove
And finally, this is my solar water heater. I just spray painted half of a clear Nalgene bottle with flat black paint after taping, leaving the volume indicators unpainted. On a sunny day here in Wisconsin, the water will heat up to 110 deg F, not enough to sterilize but enough to save fuel:Solar water heater bottle
Oh, from my first post: that's "stove" not "stobe"!

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Metal cans on 11/07/2006 10:00:23 MST Print View

Michael,

Very creative. Good Job.