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Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 00:48:59 MDT Print View

This is my thread now!

I mean, you children f'ed the last one up and I need somewhere to post this... look what showed up here in LA at Machine Project
1200 D North Alvarado
Los Angeles, CA 90026
213-483-8761

http://machineproject.com/events/2009/10/31/paleolithic-skills-survival-workshops/

Paleolithic Skills & Survival Workshops

Take a trip in time and still be amongst the urban mayhem that is called LA.
A world without metal, plastic, or glass. a world where your daily needs come from what is in front of your eyes. Welcome to a world without boundaries or limits. Hold on tight and lock your seats in an upright position, you are entering a world of Paleo skills and primitive technology in the midst of Los Angeles.

- Palm leaf rope-making Sat Oct 31st 12pm-4pm
- Random Weave Basket Sun Nov 1st 12pm-5pm
- Stone Knives Sat Nov 14th 11am-4pm — Stone knives class is SOLD OUT! Second session of Stone Knives added on Sun Nov 8th, 11am-4pm
- Fire By Friction Sun Nov 15th 11am-3pm

Edited by uberkatzen on 10/30/2009 01:19:07 MDT.

Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 00:52:50 MDT Print View

And this was useful:

Man and Mule PCT thru-hike

http://www.manandmule.com/
http://www.manandmule.com/gear/

With a great discussion of 19th century gear and methods by "Bronze".

Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 00:56:58 MDT Print View

http://www.tundrasleepingbags.com/

"This naturally moulted down is then hand collected from the nests without disturbing the birds who are allowed to live to a ripe old age, doing what birds do naturally in the wild."

"You get a higher fill power and a better quality down from mature birds, which need to be three to four years old to produce fully developed, high quality down clusters."

"Our Ethical or compassionate down has a fill power of c.860 Euro standard (see technology) whereas down from birds killed at 406 weeks struggle to better c.400 FP

High Fill Power means a softer fill, lighter weight and smaller packed size for your sleeping bag and the added bonus, you get a clearer conscience!"

Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 01:02:46 MDT Print View

because....

http://www.chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11because

Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 01:16:25 MDT Print View

I haven't used another stove on the trail since making these. I cook, bake, boil. Plus, it's the ritual of fire to relax and enjoy. And, yes, it's a sustainable practice.

Here's the clearest, easiest description, IMO, for a MYOG woodburning stove:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=14765

twigstove

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 08:42:57 MDT Print View

Thanks for getting this back on track Michael.

Thoughts:

-Some gear I'm currently interested in hacking- military shelter halves. One "half" erects as a one man A frame. Two are combined together to make a two man shelter. Four can be connected to make a four man...
While the military versions are typically 15 to 17 oz. canvas (HEAVY) I'm going to start looking around for a lighter canvas/fabric for my own stuff.
But in the meantime, I want to play with the design- I like the idea of the modular system- saving materials by combining smaller sections into a larger shelter as opposed to owning a one man tent, two man tent, three man tent, etc.


-So what are the goals here?
I'm ok with a 20-25 lb base- I trained for the JMT with a 25 block of clay in my pack. So that's the high-end number I'm comfortable with. Now I gotta see if I can hit it. Of course lower is always better...
I've been churning the idea of creating a kit with no plastics, synthetics, or petroleum-based products. I realize it's pretty hard (in this age) to find materials that haven't used petroleum in their manufacturing process, but I think it's a challenging enough benchmark to start with. Metals certainly fall into a questionable category here...Do I want to settle on some sort of guideline as to which metals are in or out?

-I'm not too concerned about being able to sew a pack that's a reasonable weight; I want to start with my shelter and sleep system as those are going to be the heaviest/bulkiest and ultimately determine pack size.

-On silk shelled down bags: while I've heard this mentioned by some, I'm thinking it could be a poor choice...I'd prefer to make something more durable and less prone to water issues. As I'm not sure about how good my waterproofing capabilities are at this point, I don't like the thought of down. I'm currently leaning towards designing a layered wool poncho/quilt system...we'll see.

Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 11:14:23 MDT Print View

I'm inclined to agree with a floor plan that excludes synthetics, plastics, petroleum-based products, and not get immersed in some obvious quagmires, e.g. production, shipping. Answers to those question will be a boon as we move along and discover better, maybe local, sources. And regarding metals, actually, regarding all our materials, lets consider their durabiity/lifetime and recyclability/reuseability as cornerstones. Ti, aluminum, steel, tin, brass?

Thanks for hopping on so quickly Craig. Granted, I expected you to.

Anyone, everyone, the title is: "Materials and Methods", there's is NOTHING to argue about, so please keep the dilemmas and arguments out. And, if you want to chime in just to flex your ego, hit the Chaff.

Anyway, I'll get back later to the rest of your posting, Craig. I am framing a dialog with this water-proofing company. As well as exploring a resource for hemp. I envision wool being integral, but I wonder, why have I not seen Merino in thicker weaves like a blanket. Anyone?

cheers,
-Michael

EDIT: with greater concerns for weight, we're going to intently explore Multi-Use gear. Designs like the JRB quilt/poncho will be clutch. Can't wait!

Edited by uberkatzen on 10/30/2009 11:22:33 MDT.

Anna Carter
(acarter_1) - F

Locale: Pacific NW U.S.
Re: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 11:38:54 MDT Print View

Thank you, Michael, for the new thread.

Craig - on your canvas issues, have you looked into sail fabric? I worked on boats for quite awhile. Tall ships' canvas is crazy-heavy, but smaller sailing yachts have waterproof, sun-resistant fabrics that are super light. And have pretty colors. Plus, racing yachts' sails tend to be quite disposable (in practice, not material).

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Re: RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 12:09:51 MDT Print View

Hi,

Interesting thread - so far.

From Michael:

"I envision wool being integral, but I wonder, why have I not seen Merino in thicker weaves like a blanket. Anyone?"

I weave and spin fiber - all kinds. Merino is one of the fibers I can spin. I have 2 pounds of some really nice black merino fiber straight from New Zealand and ready to spin. This type of merino fiber is a little itchy for most folks. It could be woven into yardage and then sewn into anything you need or "felted" and that can also be used for lots of things. "Highly processed" merino like they use in the light weight things we now see have the itch taken out of it.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 15:12:01 MDT Print View

I'm consistently impressed with what you can do Bill, thanks. I check your blog every now and then to see what you've got brewing.

I'd like to see what you mean by the "felted" wool. I'm imagining something that might work well as an insulator/liner, possibly between layers.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 17:36:06 MDT Print View

"I'm not too concerned about being able to sew a pack that's a reasonable weight"

Saw somewhere, sorry don't remember where, of someone who sells a kit where the sleeping system is the pack, and all your other kit/food/etc. 'rolls/folds up' into it. Perhaps you could do something like that for your pack.

Michael Skwarczek
(uberkatzen) - F

Locale: Sudamerica
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 19:21:39 MDT Print View

Douglas, I remember catching mention of that too. And it's funny the Multi-Use things I've been dismissing off hand are coming back as viable, maybe necessary options in this exercise. I always said, damnit, I'm light enough, I don't have to wear my freakin sleep system too!

Bill, I'm glad to hear from you here. I'm sure we'll be reaching out to you more. Already I'm building a list of questions about your comment on merino wool. Where to start.

I'd also like to get some insight from Brian Maynard, he came through that UBE thread with a story from some trip with a survivalist group and getting the cold shoulder showing up with his foam pads. I once couldn't have conceived of many methods we casually toss about here on BPL, now I'm wondering what the heck those guys slept on. While I'm not too interested that road, I can see many strategies developing/adapting from their techniques.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/30/2009 19:28:44 MDT Print View

Remember where I saw the sleeping kit as pack: Moonbow Gear.

http://www.moonbowgear.com/1trailgear/1Custom%20packs/Powerpacks/1powerpac.html

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
RE: UL Sustainable, Materials and Methods on 10/31/2009 04:36:50 MDT Print View

Micheal,
On that outing we were building shelters to sleep in. Im no expert but I know of about 3 ways to go pad free,
-hot bed, where you sleep on buried hot coals/rocks
-construct a cot from various sized logs, this keeps you off the ground.
- sleep on a pile of duff, spruce bed ect.
Obviously the first 2 are for base camp situations in the wilderness. The last one is more practical for hiking and is what Jardine mentions in "Beyond Backpacking" though he used a torso sized pad too.

If you are interested in wool blankets you may like this instructional vid : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx38go8-Ig8
I dont know how warm a blanket could be though? Usually they are used with a fire in a leanto/baker tent. never tried it myself.

On buckles plastic vs metal. This has been bothering me too. Both have their drawbacks but I already have extra plastic buckles so will probably just go with them.
Although it came to me that a natural material suitable for buckles is - Bone! The problem is, its a big project to carve working buckles myself. although a pack with bone buckles would be bad-ass.
I was also thinking -what about siliconized silk or Egyptian cotton? Silicone is natural right? Could one just coat some fabric with silicon caulking at home? It will never be as thin and light a coat as manufactures could produce but it may work. Otherwise you need to use old fashioned wax or just don't treat and just allow for the fabric to wet out. Im interested in the new waterproofing Micheal is talking about can you tell us anything?

Dan Durston
(dandydan)

Locale: Cascadia
EAT on 11/01/2009 22:52:37 MST Print View

I think I know where all this is going:
http://www.ediblegear.com/