Olympus E-620 Digital SLR Camera Review
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Addie Bedford
(addiebedford) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Olympus E-620 Digital SLR Camera Review on 10/27/2009 14:58:19 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

Olympus E-620 Digital SLR Camera Review

Darin Butler
(darinbu) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Filters? on 10/27/2009 21:10:50 MDT Print View

Can you easily get/use good filters with the lenses for this camera? I'm in love with circular polarizers.

. .
(biointegra) - MLife

Locale: Puget Sound
Re: Olympus E-620 Digital SLR Camera Review on 10/27/2009 22:14:12 MDT Print View

If only the swiveling LCD would detach and extend via a cable or better yet, wirelessly....one day.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Filters? on 10/27/2009 22:40:35 MDT Print View

Hi Darin,

All Olympus 4/3 and other 4/3 system lenses take filters (well, nearly all). The 14-42, one lens featured in the article, takes 52mm filters, as does the kit 40-150. Oly's Web site gives full specs for each system lens, including filter diameter. Sadly (as I've discovered) accumulating a lot of lenses means gathering a lot of filters because there are a lot of different diameters with the system (true of literally every brand).

Cheers,

Rick

Correction--the Oly kit lenses take 58mm filters. I was thinking of (yet) another camera and having a little Nikon nostalgia--52mm used to be their typical filter.

Edited by halfturbo on 10/28/2009 13:38:25 MDT.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Great review; How do the Canon G11 and lighter SLRs like the Nikon D40 stack up? on 10/27/2009 23:11:46 MDT Print View

Thanks for a highly informative review and intro to the current camera landscape. I've only skimmed for now but looking forward to reading in full before catching zzzzz's tonight. To replace a Canon G5 I used to have which captured beautiful images considering the price, weight and size, I'm looking to pick up either a compact with a quality lens, image sensor and feature set such as the Canon G11, or a fairly light DSLR (if I remember correctly the Nikon D40 weighs 1 lb or a little less (which you can also buy very inexpensively nowadays).

How do the Canon G11, Nikon D40 and Nikon D90 stack up to the Olympus E-620?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Great review; How do the Canon G11 and lighter SLRs like the Nikon D40 stack up? on 10/27/2009 23:31:47 MDT Print View

That would be a very interesting shootout - the G11 vs the e620. Is the extra weight, bulk and cost of the e620 worth whatever image improvement it has over the G11?

I suspect the answer would depend on the individual and his priorities. I am still agonising ...

Cheers

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Olympus E-620 Digital SLR Camera Review on 10/28/2009 00:00:37 MDT Print View

"Sadly (as I've discovered) accumulating a lot of lenses means gathering a lot of filters because there are a lot of different diameters with the system (true of literally every brand)."
Up to a point you can use step up and step down rings. So for example you could use 55mm filters on a lens that takes 52 or 49mm.
The first number on the ring is the one for the lens you want to use, so a 49-52 ring will allow 52mm filters on a 49mm lens.
(not practical for UV/Skylight but cost efficient for special effect filters)
Franco

Ross Williams
(xavi1337) - F

Locale: Korea
Canon s90 on 10/28/2009 05:13:38 MDT Print View

for those thinking of the G11, stop.
The Canon S90 has the same sensor in a much smaller and lighter package, with great controls, raw capture, basically everything the G11 can do. Did I mention it is cheaper too? Its lens is a very fast f/2.0-4.9, 28-105 35mm eq.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
S90 half the weight on 10/28/2009 09:36:55 MDT Print View

Just noticed the S90 is half the weight of the G11! Is it really comparable in almost every way? Thanks for the heads up.

I wouldn't consider it a substitute for a DSLR + quality zoom or wide lens, but a lighter camera I'd take when I don't want to carry a DSLR + with the extra lenses, which may be pretty often.

I took images with my G5 that serious photographers were convinced I took with a DSLR. I was very impressed with the performance and only wished it was lighter and offered a bit more control.

What's the max size quality blowup print you can make with the S90 or G11?

What would be the max size for the E-620?

Edited by mountainwalker on 10/28/2009 09:37:58 MDT.

Gordon Towne
(gordontowne) - MLife

Locale: New England
Re: S90 half the weight on 10/28/2009 09:51:08 MDT Print View

At full resolution, the G11 or S90 could do 9x13 prints, while the E-620 could do 9x14 or so, if you're looking at high quality 300 ppi photo prints. Not a huge difference there.

One nice thing also about the G11 is that you do have the option of a viewfinder, which means that you can operate it without using the LCD. On longer trips this means that a single battery will last you much longer. The S90 on the other hand has no viewfinder, so on longer trips you need to factor in the additional weight of extra batteries.

John Koenig
(zencorvus) - F
Olympus E-620 Review on 10/28/2009 10:05:13 MDT Print View

One thing I didn't see mentioned in the review was this camera's macro capabilities. How well would it do on a closeup of that flower just outside my tent door?

William Wang
(billwang) - M

Locale: SF Bay Area
E-P1 in the field on 10/28/2009 10:29:49 MDT Print View

Hello all,

I just switched from a heavy canon full frame DSLR (5D) which accounted for nearly 20% of my load to a Olympus E-P1. I agree with the author that there are not yet many high quality lenses for micro 4/3 format. But I'm hoping that that changes.

Overall, coming from a full frame awesome optical viewfinder like on the Canon 5D, I think the E-P1 worked out pretty well. One unexpected advantage was for when I use a 10-stop neutral density filter to get long exposures such as this photo:

EP-1 with 10 stop ND filter

Normally this is very hard to compose since the optical viewfinder will be very dark. But I was able to compose the image using the electronic viewfinder and manual focus.

So far I think micro 4/3 looks very promising for my ultra light trips - which for me currently means about 16lbs w/o consumables.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Olympus E-620 Review on 10/28/2009 10:48:26 MDT Print View

Hi John,

In any interchangable-lens camera like the E-620, macro capability (the ability to approach or achieve 1:1 subject to image ratio) is determined by the lens, not the camera itself. Oly offers macro lenses that can get you up to 1:1, and several of the 4/3 system zooms focus quite close as well, giving near-macro performance.

That said, the E-620 enhances macro shooting in three ways that a lot of dslrs do not: the articulated LCD panel allows you to place the camera in very odd positions and still compose and focus when the viewfinder is impossible to use; live view zoom allows precise focusing; in-camera image stabilization works with virtually any lens, including manual focus legacy lenses.

Cheers,

Rick

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: S90 half the weight on 10/28/2009 10:57:08 MDT Print View

Hi Gordon,

I'm wondering where you come up with the print size comparison? Since the 4/3 sensor is *at a miniumum* four times the area of the largest compact digicam sensor, and since print size is ultimately limited by sensor performance so long as proper optics and technique are used, it would follow that one could safely double the print dimensions (increasing the area four times) with equivalent quality between the two. We cannot fall into the trap of pixel counting, as they are not equivalent across sensor formats.

(A consideration of viewing distance to the print must come into play at some point as well.)

FWIW I can get quite satisfactory 16x20 prints from 4/3.

Cheers,

Rick

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Problems with Small Sensors and Enlarged Prints on 10/28/2009 11:07:23 MDT Print View

The primary problem with small sensor cameras like the S90 or G11 is that you really can't print eye-popping images at full size. 9x13 prints coming from these cameras aren't the greatest, and there are noticeable differences in detail resolved when prints are printed at 240+ dpi between the compact camera and larger sensor cameras like the DP2, E-P1, or E-620.

More important to me is the color depth and dynamic range offered by a larger sensor. It gives you more latitude in post processing to deliver an image that expresses your creative vision. The extra information captured by the larger sensor also gives a sense of depth, or dimensionality, to the images, like a good chrome film. Small sensor cameras are notorious for their ability to deliver images that just ... look ... digital.

The final advantage I like for a larger sensor camera is the flexibility you have with wide aperture lenses that create narrow of depth of field. An f/2 lens on a small sensor camera cannot isolate the depth of field to the extent that an f/2 lens on a larger sensor camera can.

For example, if I use the Lumix 20mm f/1.7 lens on an Olympus E-P1, I can create a depth of field at f/1.7 that would only be equivalent to an 8mm lens (reasonable) at f/0.7 (unreasonable) on a camera with a sensor the size of the one in the S90. Clearly, that ain't gonna happen on a small sensor camera.

Alternatively, let's look at what the f/2 and 28mm (equivalent) wide lens of the S90 is equivalent to on the E-P1 (or E-620). f/2 on the S90 translates to abut f/4.8 on the E-P1.

So, be cautious about small sensor cameras touting "fast" and "wide" apertures, because they aren't as fast as you think when viewed in the standard context of 35mm photography.

Conclusion: larger sensors give you a lot more creative freedom than small sensors.

Stay tuned, as we are wrapping up our E-P1 review in a few weeks, and both the E-P1 and GF1 reviews will be published in the next several weeks at BPL.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Problems with Small Sensors and Enlarged Prints on 10/28/2009 11:35:00 MDT Print View

Re: prints, FWIW Ken Rockwell would disagree.

"As of 2009, resolution is nothing more than a sales pitch to get you to pay more. I've made great-looking 12x18" (30x50cm) prints from a three megapixel camera, and fantastic 20x30" (50x75cm) prints from a 6 MP Nikon D40 camera."

The 12x18s he mentions were shot with a Canon A70.

Of course, he's a pro photographer but that doesn't negate the fact you can get very good 12x18 prints from a small sensor camera. They definitely won't be as good as something shot from an SLR but it's still doable.

Edited by simplespirit on 10/28/2009 11:37:00 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Print quality vs sensor size on 10/28/2009 12:50:56 MDT Print View

Chris, I would agree with you.

My point is that there is a difference between a very good print and an eye-popper.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Print quality vs sensor size on 10/28/2009 13:00:49 MDT Print View

I won't argue with that.

Gordon Towne
(gordontowne) - MLife

Locale: New England
Re: Re: S90 half the weight on 10/28/2009 13:44:11 MDT Print View

I would agree completely that resolution is not a determining factor in quality. I am glad to see that manufacturers are starting to abandon the megapixel wars to a certain degree. A few years ago I don't think you would have seen Canon lower the resolution on the G11 from its predecessor. It's great to see that they are focusing on actual quality by decreasing the pixel density, rather than the one-upsmanship that has largely dominated up to this point.

That is actually somewhat the point that I was trying to make, although looking back I should have been more clear. If you were looking at print size solely as a function of resolution, you wouldn't likely even see a difference in the higher pixel count.

Steve Nutting
(sjnutting) - F

Locale: Southwest Colorado
Great review on 10/28/2009 14:47:04 MDT Print View

Ryan,

Thanks for the great review. I had always noticed that it was hard to control depth of field with the compact cameras, but never understood the relationship between sensor size and the depth of field.

I have an 8MP E300 that I picked up used with a nice Sigma 50-200mm and the 18-44 Olympus lens. Before that I was using compact digital cameras with reasonable results.

I'm not quite at the point of upgrading my DSLR, so I think I'll wait until I can get one like the 620 with a good HD video mode too. If it is an Olympus and I can keep my existing lenses, all the better!

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Sensor important... but the lens is equal issue. (was S90 half the weight) on 10/28/2009 14:49:11 MDT Print View

> Just noticed the S90 is half the weight of the G11! Is
> it really comparable in almost every way?

The sensor is the same and I believe the digital processing are the same as well. Controls are different and as others have noted the G11 has an articulated screen and optical viewfinder which can be useful.

The open question is how does the G11 and S90 lens compare. I don't know the answer to this. My observation is that the lens on the S90 is not as good as the lens on the LX3, which isn't as good as the the u4/3 20/1.7, which isn't as good as... I don't know. I haven't done any side by side comparisons between the 20/1.7 and glass I really love.

Some of the time lighting is tough and the small sensors are not up to the job. During the daytime though, there is typically plenty of light to saturate even the small sensors. The problem with nearly all the small sensor cameras is that they have so/so lens. You can see the same effect with large sensor and film cameras. For example, I have put large prints of the same subject in front of people. The only difference was one was taken with a 85/1.8 at 2.8 and the other with a "pro grade" 70-200/2.8 set at 85/2.8 (which is much higher quality than the compact camera lens). Nearly all of them look at the picture taken with the prime lens and say "I don't know why... but I really like that picture more". These weren't pixel peeper... just people having an emotional reaction to the image.

Nikon and Canon have more/better native lens options than 4/3. 4/3s is better than u4/3... which has just a handful of lens which are expensive and not top tier (with the possible exception of the 20/1.7). The good news with the u4/3 is that the short distance to the recording plane means that with an adaptor you can mount pretty much any lens and expect it to function pretty well. If only the sensor had the micro lens used in the M9 for optimal sensor performance. Oh well... it is an order of magnitude cheaper. I do look forward to seeing more high quality lens built to use 4/3 and u4/3 mountings nativity.

--Mark

Edited by verber on 10/28/2009 14:58:44 MDT.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Olympus E-620 Digital SLR Camera Review on 10/28/2009 15:02:53 MDT Print View

Personally I would take some of what Ken Rockwell says with a small pinch of salt :) However, I do think that for many people, despite their limitations, compacts are a great choice. Like all our equipment choices there are compromises. For me personally, to really get the value out of carrying heavier gear I also need to take and use a tripod, high quality lenses, some filters and most importantly I need to have the time to dedicate to photography and then to post processing. Many people just don't want to do all of this. If you are just wanting to record your trip, make a few prints and post your photos online then compacts are a great choice. The best camera is the one you have with you and heavier gear sometimes gets left at home.

Ryan - I am really enjoying your excellent photos and videos.

Stephen Firth
(kanangra) - F
E620 v. E420 on 10/28/2009 16:09:26 MDT Print View

I have an E420. With the 25mm pancake lens I'm pretty sure it is lighter than this one? What would the main difference between it and the new one be?

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: E620 v. E420 on 10/28/2009 17:43:24 MDT Print View

Hi Stephen,

Some notable differences are the 620's I.S., articulating screen, newer image processor, larger viewfinder and art filters.

You, however, have the pleasure of and bragging rights to owning the smallest and lightest dslr sold.

Cheers,

Rick

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
S90, G11 or Lumix DMC-LX3? on 10/28/2009 23:41:05 MDT Print View

This review has really helped me narrow down what I want in a camera for outdoor photography on most trips = convenience, relatively small form factor and light weight with good image quality. I'm much more likely to always take a lightweight compact with me. The reality is I also don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to mastering the art of a DSLR right now.

Thus I’m leaning toward a high quality compact again, though plan to take the DSLR plunge when I have more time to devote to learning how to get the most out of an SLR, and when a model like the E-620 comes out with quality video, or a similar but significantly lighter cam comes on the market.

Nowadays for video I carry a very small and lightweight (5-6 ounces I think) Xacti CG6 MPEG-4 video cam with a small extra battery ($80 on Walmart closeout last year), which takes Youtube quality videos and holds hours of video. It uses the same lightweight ultrapod tripod I use with compact cams. I use it for work for saving presentations.

Just summing up comparison of the G11 and S90:

Ross: “for those thinking of the G11, stop.
The Canon S90 has the same sensor in a much smaller and lighter package, with great controls, raw capture, basically everything the G11 can do. Did I mention it is cheaper too? Its lens is a very fast f/2.0-4.9, 28-105 35mm eq.”

Gordon: “At full resolution, the G11 or S90 could do 9x13 prints, while the E-620 could do 9x14 or so, if you're looking at high quality 300 ppi photo prints. Not a huge difference there. One nice thing also about the G11 is that you do have the option of a viewfinder, which means that you can operate it without using the LCD. On longer trips this means that a single battery will last you much longer. The S90 on the other hand has no viewfinder, so on longer trips you need to factor in the additional weight of extra batteries.”

After doing a little digging, also found out the following which may help others make the choice:

1) While I wanted a compact p&s camera that has a view finder to preserve battery power, some reviewers find the view finder on the G11 nearly useless because the lens obscures much of the view (I had the same issue with the G5).

2) According to the B&H Photo website, the Canon S90 battery weighs only 0.6 oz (18g). So carrying an extra battery to compensate for not having a viewfinder adds very little weight to the S90, which is nearly half the weight of the G11. By comparison, a now similarly priced Nikon D40 DSLR comes in at 1 lb (or 1.2 lbs with battery) in a much bulkier body.

3) The G11 has a 5x optical zoom, the S90 has a 3.8x zoom.

Hate losing the extra bit of zoom with the S90, but knowing the view finder isn’t very helpful for composing on the G11, I’m finding the very low weight and compact size of the Canon S90 very compelling.

Questions:

A) With the same image sensor and considering the above info, which of the two would you go for?

B) How would you compare the S90 and G11 to the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX3?

Joseph Reeves
(Umnak)

Locale: Southeast Alaska
GF1 M4/3 on 10/29/2009 00:12:24 MDT Print View

I've been using a GF1 for the past week or so and find a great difference between it and my LX3 images. The GF1's images have much greater detail and they "look" better. While I used the LX3 last weekend for an overnight trip -- it is lighter and I wanted to make sure I knew the new camera well enough -- I have no doubt that the GF1 will replace it as backpacking gear. It isn't that much heavier. This from today...

Wreck

Ross Williams
(xavi1337) - F

Locale: Korea
LX3 on 10/29/2009 07:07:23 MDT Print View

The LX3 is another great camera, but its 2.5x zoom might turn some people off. It also has a sensor only slightly larger than that of the G10/S90. My main issue with the LX3 however is that the controls are just not as natural as on the S90.

The GF1 should really be looked at as a HD video camera first, and still shots second. This thing with outperform all nikons and Canons in HD video ands down. If you want to stick to photos, the EP-1 may be a more convenient choice.

I currently take a D90 into the field with a 35mm prime for most everything, but find it too bulky. I'm looking for my next camera to be a film rangefinder at 500g including lens. If someone could fit a modern lens and metering system on a Holga I'd snap one up in a heartbeat.

Alexander Laws
(goldenmeanie) - F

Locale: Los Angeles
Holga on 10/29/2009 20:13:32 MDT Print View

Ross, how about a Mamiya 7 II ;)

Ross Williams
(xavi1337) - F

Locale: Korea
Mamiya 7 on 10/30/2009 09:07:12 MDT Print View

@alexander
2.5 pounds is a bit much for me as well as the price.

Alexander Laws
(goldenmeanie) - F

Locale: Los Angeles
rangie on 10/30/2009 12:52:06 MDT Print View

I was just teasing... ;) But, I want one anyhow.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Holgas on 10/30/2009 16:10:25 MDT Print View

"If someone could fit a modern lens and metering system on a Holga I'd snap one up in a heartbeat." Ah but then it wouldn't be a Holga:) I am definitely going to take my Holga on the next trip I do and see how I get on.

Larry Risch
(dayhiker) - F
Panasonic Lumix GF1 Review, October 2009 on 11/07/2009 22:10:08 MST Print View

dpreview has a review of this which it compares somewhat to the Olympus E-P1.

He notes a few advantages of E-P1, but I don't think i have ever read such an enthusiastic conclusion. I have yet to read it close enough to see what he likes about it over the E-P1.

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Panasonic Lumix GF1 Review, October 2009 on 11/07/2009 22:34:47 MST Print View

There was also a nice comparison between olympus e-p1 and panasonic ep1 at http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/11/panasonic-gf1-vs-olympus-ep1-part-ii.html

Darryl Romm
(Lyrrad) - F

Locale: Greater London
Re: LX3 on 11/09/2009 16:19:37 MST Print View

Fuji do some rangefinders that are highly recommended.

GW690
GW680
GS645

I believe above have fixed lens but I am not too sure on that. I do know one of them comes with interchangable lens but can't verify which model.

Edited by Lyrrad on 11/09/2009 16:20:17 MST.

Trevor Warmedahl
(chokmah33) - F
whats the tent? on 11/09/2009 20:38:30 MST Print View

what tent is that in the morning after thunderstorm pic?

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Great review on 11/11/2009 10:17:09 MST Print View

Alan,
In your review you state-

"The E-620 has made a significant improvement in dynamic range over its predecessors, especially in the ability to capture highlights. In fact, at ISO 200, it has one of the largest dynamic ranges of a lightweight DSLR."

How do you evaluate this range? What spec's would tell me about the dynamic range of this camera compared to some other camera?

And thanks for your insights. I find them relevant and informative, especially in regard to "being out there", being spontaneous, and being light.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Panasonic Lumix GF1 and Canon Powershot S90 comparison on 11/11/2009 22:13:58 MST Print View

New York Times comparison of Panasonic Lumix GF1 and Canon Powershot S90 with side by side photo comparisons.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/12/technology/personaltech/12pogue.html

Gabriel Slatton
(Fishfinger) - F
new to slr's on 12/02/2009 23:40:29 MST Print View

I have never used a nice dslr so I have some studying to do about photography for sure but I am fed up with usuing my little P&S and trying the get nice pictures. I like the sound of this camera and will take the time to learn about it. My question is when do you think they might come out with this unit with the HD video capibility in it? I could wait until late spring to buy since I will not be going back packing until June.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: new to slr's on 12/03/2009 11:18:01 MST Print View

Hi Gabriel,

As is typical Oly has been quite mum about forthcoming dslr bodies so we're left to speculate, and you know how reliable that is.

Speculation follows.

It's presumed the next Oly announcement will be the E-3 replacement and that it will have video if for no other reason than the competetion have video. That will be a big, heavy and expensive body.

We don't know what's to become of the 4XX and 5xx series, since the 620 straddles them in size and exceeds them in features. The presumption is the 6## series will continue and one or both of the others will be dropped.

Since you can wait until mid-2010 sit tight, as the announcements *should* come Q1/10, with product releases by mid-year. If the E-# has video, it will indicate the feature will trickle down through the rest of the line. If not, then Oly is leaving video to µ4/3.

End of speculation.

Since video is handled much better by µ4/3 than any dslr, you might want to look at Panny's and Oly's offerings in that format if video is critical to your needs. DSLRs are still the way to go for fast shooting though, including entry-level models, even if the video is clunky.

Cheers,

Rick

Gabriel Slatton
(Fishfinger) - F
Thanks Rick on 12/03/2009 18:50:42 MST Print View

I know next to nothing about real photography so much of what is said here is greek to me. I plan on taking a class or something in order to gain some lingo knowledge and working ability etc. Sounds like this camera will be fine for me and I like the weight factor. If I want to do video I can buy one of those little HD recorders that are small and light. I want a camera for taking still shots of scenery and wild life and what you had to say about how easy this unit was to operate and carry on your chest while packing really spoke to me. That is key for me. It looks like it takes fantastic photos compared to the crummy little older model p&s I have been usuing. I think I will go ahead and by this unit sooner rather than later so that I can get the hang of using it before my trips this next summer. Like I said my first trip will be in June and then I plan on four more. One each month through October. If I buy it in say April and get a few lessons under my belt I should be good to go by June. Where can I take photography lessons? Do Camera shops offer them? I have seen them at the local collages I think. Any sudgestions on how to learn what the heck I am doing?

Gerald Miller
(colnagospud) - MLife

Locale: Northern California
Re: Thanks Rick on 12/26/2009 10:00:36 MST Print View

Thanks Rick...santa took your advice and brought one to our house yesterday,
gerry