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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: As a new member.... on 10/28/2012 09:37:27 MDT Print View

troll - "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages" - that doesn't really fit

I guess it's just that you keep saying the same thing

Yet here I am, giving you advice that you shouldn't give Ryan advice - call me hypocritical

I just couldn't help myself making a comment. I have no problem with any of your posts - carry on...

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Saturday Night Live Line on 10/28/2012 09:48:28 MDT Print View

Maybe its time for one of us to use this line:

here

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
As a BPL member.... on 10/28/2012 09:49:12 MDT Print View

I thank you Jerry.

I think I have said all I have to say on the subject of BPL and RJ.

Felt it needed saying, and feel better for have spoken up and said something.

...but you never know.


Edit: Hah! Daryl.

Edited by kthompson on 10/28/2012 09:51:27 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: As a BPL member.... on 10/28/2012 10:52:36 MDT Print View

wow, we dig up a thread that is 6 years old.....I wish we would be more positive about this. As Alexander noted earlier, if you don't like this site or the direction or lack there of, then make you own. The money that I have spent has been well worth it. The information that I have gained over the last 10 years has been something that I cannot put value to. This is turning into a sad state of affairs......really

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: As a BPL member.... on 10/28/2012 10:55:22 MDT Print View

Ken, Ken, Ken,...

This fire was almost out and now I fear you've fanned it back to life : )

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: As a BPL member.... on 10/28/2012 10:59:01 MDT Print View

yes I did.

After reading through the recent posts, I could not help but think this is ridiculous. Oh well.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: As a BPL member.... on 10/28/2012 11:00:10 MDT Print View

Also Jerry, at least my post was positive.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: I should add... on 10/28/2012 11:02:39 MDT Print View

Now, now...

It might be true that Ken sometimes expresses his displeasure with the way things are handled in BPL, and if you only take what he has written over the last year you might think he thinks of nothing but trashing BPL, but if you take the time to get to know him (as I have for a long time now), you'll know that he actually does a lot in the UL community to help promote it and provide positive experiences, a lot of it in the real world. His Bay Area GGG gatherings are very popular and have nothing to do with negative attitudes. My take on his critical posts is that the community, of which he has been an integral part of for many years, is beloved to him and he doesn't want to see it degrade into oblivion. Recently there is a strong sense here that things might not survive much longer. I, too, am very concerned about this, and having been a member of a few very popular forums that imploded and disappeared, the atmosphere is much the same here now as when those forums went kaput. This sense of foreboding did not exist in BPL just five years ago, no matter how hot the arguments got. Please note that Ken's criticisms are specific; they are only concerned with the running and survival of the site and community. I think he brings up legitimate points. Whether or not you agree with him is beside the point... as a paying member he has the right, and you could even say the responsibility to speak up when things are going awry. I'd say he has done more to kick the ball back into action than anyone else here. If he hadn't said anything about the mess with membership benefits how many people would have spoken up? It's usually the squeaky wheels that everyone complains about, and often the squeaky wheels are ridiculed, ostracized, and disliked. It takes courage to stand up to that.

I think it is the mark of a good community member to be involved at different levels in the community, and I think it is the mark of a responsible and concerned member when they have the courage and take the time to express what they see as problems. Always being nice and skirting over the problems do nothing to identify and address those problems. Sometimes you have to throw in some seemingly hurtful insights that make others uncomfortable in order for everyone to become aware of what the problems might be.

As I've stated before, I think that the BPL community does not belong to Ryan. The site does and the medium through which we have access to one another does, but not the community. The community was created by each of us, in our willingness to be active and talk to one another. Each of us puts in the work to listen to, think about the topics, and speak to one another. We volunteer this, on our own time, with our own resources. Many of us (now all of us) pay for the access to this community. I'm not sure whether that makes this a better community or not, though I suspect it has nothing to do with the quality of the community discussions. Serendipity brought all these unique people together, and good timing on Ryan's part.

The pivot to the genesis of the community of course were the original articles and insights Ryan and company provided in the early years of BPL. Ryan created the interest and the dialogue that got us all started, and he gave that insight a certain bent and a voice. In that way Ryan has become one of the "leaders" of the movement; he brought together all the disparate information that was floating around the Ineternet before BPL came into existence (anyone who has been around that long will remember Michael Conner, John O, Ultralight Joe, Centerwalk, Onestep, and Adventure Alan... all of whom started writing about UL while Ryan was still writing his earliest blog). But he did not start the movement, nor was he the earliest adopter of the UL methods.

One of the exciting things about the UL movement was the organic development of the community. It grew out of an informal interaction of people who were very eager to share their ideas for free. If not for this freewheeling, voluntary sharing of information, the UL movement would never have taken off. BPL would never have taken off. Nowadays that laissez-faire attitude has changed somewhat, with more emphasis on somehow making money. Once that started, the carefree community was bound to lose some of its spontaneity and creativity.

That the community that Ken and I and others care about and get serious about. The BPL community itself had grown into something worth protecting and putting our hearts into. When things started to lose integrity and direction, people like Ken called it out, not to cause trouble, but to get people to do something about it before the whole community petered out.

Edit: Backpacking Lightweight was actually the first forum on lightweight hiking. It never caught on the way BPL did

Edited by butuki on 10/28/2012 21:45:32 MDT.

Ron D
(dillonr) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: I should add... on 10/28/2012 12:29:35 MDT Print View

Ken - Wow, now you're dragging up 6 year old threads to continue your war on Ryan and BPL? How many thousands of posts did you go through? Don't you have something more constructive to do with your time? You really need to just start your own website and forums because there is no way you are ever going to be happy with BPL. Your constant negativity, whining and sarcasm isn't good for you or the BPL forums.
Ron

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: I should add... on 10/28/2012 12:45:16 MDT Print View

+1 Ron

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: I've added on 10/28/2012 13:12:13 MDT Print View

Actually I bump this thread last year, Ron. *sarcasm*

I was perfectly happy with BPL until late, and all these poor management practices came to a head.

Would you care to extrapolate any particular point I have brought up? Or is your disapproval of me just the way I present them?

You can complain how I do things and present myself, that's OK. I expect to be able to do the same.


@Miguel. Thanks so much for that post. I really should have you do all my talking for me as you can keep your cool, whereas I cannot.

So let's not get all personal anymore. Let's discuss facts. If you are interested.

Edited by kthompson on 10/28/2012 13:12:57 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: I've added on 10/28/2012 13:17:36 MDT Print View

But Ken, people have, and then you post something and the edit it. I too have questioned the way you have done this and have not had a "friendly" encounter afterwards. You do not play well on that front. You constantly post something after the fact and the edit out nasty replies. I disagree with you on that.

yes BPL needs some work. Most definitely. But the way you go about your business, myself and others feel it lacks in constructiveness or tact.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
OK then on 10/28/2012 13:59:28 MDT Print View

"yes BPL needs some work. Most definitely. But the way you go about your business, myself and others feel it lacks in constructiveness or tact."

Fair enough. I get hot and post. Then think better of it later. Character trait or flaw, it's there. I'm way more laid back than my parents in this regard. Man, that's a tough crowd.

It really ticks me off though when people want to tell me what I should find value in, believe in. And go the extra step to devalue my opinion, beliefs because they don't match theirs. How does this work?

It really would be best if Miguel did my communicating for me. Absolutely spot on again.

It interesting that people who disagree with me and my ways here like to comment on the threads whereas the people who are more supportive like to PM me. What do you think that means? If someone has to be a pariah I guess they are happy for me to play that part, which is fine. Ryan has his distractors and I have mine. Fair is fair.

Meet me sometime. You'll have a real opinion based on a whole variety of things to then judge me by. I'll buy the first beer.

This internet persona is not the whole picture. I'm sure the same goes for the rest of you.

See you on the trail.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: OK then on 10/28/2012 14:05:42 MDT Print View

But I have met you and have had a beer with you, and it was a nice time :)

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: OK on 10/28/2012 14:22:48 MDT Print View

Next beer on you then. OK?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: OK on 10/28/2012 16:07:50 MDT Print View

Someday.....yes!

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Throwing In The Towel on 10/28/2012 16:22:40 MDT Print View

Beer on Ken !

Ron D
(dillonr) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: Throwing In The Towel on 10/28/2012 21:05:50 MDT Print View

Ken - I don't know you but the people that know you personally speak well of you and your work with the GGG is commendable. But frequently you aren't that nice guy on the BPL forums, you are a ball of anger lashing out. I know that you don't like the way Ryan runs BPL but your approach is over the top and ultimately counterproductive, few people listen to someone that comes across as personally hostile. Both you and Ryan want to promote lightweight backpacking, maybe you should view him as a positive influence in the field instead of focusing on everything you would do differently if you were in charge. Both of you want to promote lightweight backpacking,maybe you should try to consider him an ally in promoting the same goal instead of an opponent.
Ron

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Throwing In The Towel on 10/28/2012 21:58:26 MDT Print View

Ron, I know that Ryan is going through a hard time, and therefore there must be influences that affect his own BPL voice, but hasn't he been somewhat "antisocial", too? He hasn't made any attacks on specific people, but he has alluded to people and companies in his rather ornery articles of late. The difference between Ryan's position and Ken's is that Ryan, as a leader here can lash out in general with his own concerns, whereas Ken, with his focus on trying to weed out the problems with BPL must necessarily focus on Ryan. Who or what else is he to focus on, since Ryan is the one in charge? I don't think Ken is attacking Ryan as a private person and stand up guy, but as the public leader of this site and community. I think it is important to keep the two separate. I'm not sure why Ryan is forgiven for his transgressions, whereas as Ken is constantly raked over the coals. If I constantly faced people who were trying to tell me to shut up, I, too, would get angry and defensive. So much of all this, for all concerned, including Ryan, hang on the emotional side of the story, which can often come across as disrespectful on an online, written forum. Remember it is very hard to read nuances in the written form, unless you take a lot of time to spell it out. That is why my posts are always so long... trying to get the image and atmosphere and intention in my words just right. And taking a lot of time doing it! And even then often stepping on people's toes or completely ruining a conversation.

Edited by butuki on 10/28/2012 22:02:01 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Throwing In The Towel on 10/28/2012 22:58:20 MDT Print View

"That is why my posts are always so long... trying to get the image and atmosphere and intention in my words just right. And taking a lot of time doing it! And even then often stepping on people's toes or completely ruining a conversation."

Screw 'em! (I like to keep my posts short.....)