Woke up this morning to yet another ho-hum peek at BPL during my usual run of regular sites that I visit. It's been more than a month since the last discussion entry about where BPL is headed and since that time only one, relatively unremarkable article other than a gear review has been published. I don't remember the last time I read with interest any article in BPL other than the discussion forum postings.

For some time now I have been seriously debating whether to continue with BPL or not. It was a difficult decision because for two and a half years now I really enjoyed stopping by here daily and learning from interesting articles and communicating with some very interesting and knowledgeable members on the forum. I don't really want to give up the community I've found here.

But I'm paying for this publication and as such expect the goods to be delivered. If my former Backpacking Magazine subscription issues had failed to arrived on the monthly schedule (and even more so if the issues had only contained gear reviews and nothing else) I would have complained and demanded my money back. For some reason members here are expected to wait for months on end while BPL staff members go out and have fun with the gear they are testing or prepare for a trip-of-a-lifetime to the Arctic (all the while getting paid advice on how to prepare for that trip) while giving excuses such as "it takes time to research and write articles" or "we are reevaluating the publication's priorities". Naturally what staff members do in their private time is completely their business, but when they show up here touting their adventures to the people who help pay them to enjoy those adventures and don't do much to earn the money, I wonder what exactly they expect of their customers.

I am a professional writer and illustrator. I do the same thing for a living as the BPL staff members, most probably part-time, do here. If I failed to live up to my reponsibilities to my editors and clients as seems to be happening here I would be out of a job in an instant. I find the excuses that the BPL staff have given here on the forums unprofessional. When you have paying customers (and the "members" here are paying customers, not just participants in some club) you have an obligation to fill what the clients have paid for. It is not the responsibility or concern of the customers if the staff members are having a bad day or can't come up with ideas or are busy with "real life things". BPL asked people to pay for the publication. Therefore they ought to deliver what was promised.

I know I'm being harsh and the community here is quite close-knit and friendly. I like the people here. Yet, if the roles were reversed and a member somehow managed to get a subscription to BPL without paying for it I'm sure the BPL staff would howl bloody murder. I'm also concerned about some kind of Ryan Jordan cult developing with no one stopping to think what their money is going toward. BPL has become like an online catalogue, like Amazon or the iTunes Music Store, with registered members leaving comments to help promote gear, only this catalogue you've got to pay for. Why? What exactly are we paying for? For the privilege of staff members going out and enjoying trying out new gear? Or the privilege of members talking to one another in the forums? You can get all that in any free outdoor discussion group, including talk about ultralight gear and methods,

As others have similarly asked for, BPL needs to get more articles out. Scheduled deadlines need to be established and adhered to. Focus on other things besides gear reviews needs to start showing fruition. If these things cannot be met on a regular, perhaps monthly or bi-monthly basis, then the publication should only be offered as a free online magazine. The British online site Outdoors Magic, as well as the British version of BPL, BackpackingLight UK are both free and yet offer much, if not more (in the case of Outdoors Magic) of what BPL offers. What exactly, recently at least, does BPL offer that warrants members paying for it?

I was hoping to be much more involved with BPL, but since things haven't even begun to improve and almost no real public announcement of what is happening has been posted on the main page, it's time to sign off. My money can be better spent elsewhere. I'll be stopping by daily still until my subscription runs out next month. It's a bittersweet parting.

Edited by butuki on 03/15/2006 22:18:11 MST.

Not much to say... you covered it very well in my opinion.

All of the reasons I let my membership lapse, and then some.

remember, the forums are free... for now, and as you said yourself "I don't remember the last time I read with interest any article in BPL other than the discussion forum postings."

>> I'm also concerned about some kind of Ryan Jordan cult developing

God help us all.

>> For the privilege of staff members going out and enjoying trying out new gear?

BPL does not reimburse its review staff for their trips. They enjoy that privilege just like you: out of their own pockets. You don't pay for us to play. We figure out how to do that entirely on our own.

Thanks for your feedback, it's greatly appreciated. But "a month" isn't exactly a lot of time for us to punch everything out of our editorial queue and redefine what we publish based on comments from users.

In late Feb, we had a staff retreat in Bozeman and yours and other comments were brought up. The bottom line is that every one of our staff agreed that technical articles, features, and techniques will become a greater priority at BPL. We are now in the process of developing our editorial calendar for the next year, which will emphasize these types of articles relative to reviews.

But it's simply not practical, or feasible, for us to simply "switch off" all of the content currently in our queue (and which has been in our queue well before these comments were posted) in lieu of a wholesale and immediate change in editorial direction.

Bottom line: yes, we're responding to yours, and other readers, suggestions.

Carol is working on the new editorial calendar and the editorial staff is planning their projects for the next year. It will be out soon. It takes some time. It's part of the feedback loop we use to manage BPL as a team. Autocratic businesses can respond immediately to change. I'm not an autocrat. I'd rather invest some time to see what our team can come up with than levy a short deadline to pressure them into sacrificing creativity because some of the subscriber base is screaming for change.

I don't recommend that you renew your subscription if your expectation for change and response to your suggestions is immediate.

Rather, we'd like to invite you to participate in this process, be patient, and help us strive for quality.

And, to warn you, you're not going to see "changes" in the next month, two, or maybe even three, until we dump our current queue and implement the new editorial calendar.

Thanks very much Ryan for taking the time to respond. It's not an exaggeration to say the BPL is perhaps one of my favorite places to visit online and so I really don't want to be giving it up. Since the BPL staff has always responded honestly and with their hearts in the right place (both here online and in order transactions) throughout the time that I've been a member, your words above are heartening. And I guess you deserve just as much of a break as the next guy, so I'll lay low and see what comes up. I would be ecstatic if the changes really make BPL a much more exciting publication, and would definitely like to be part of it.

Also, please forgive me for the assumption about BPL staff payment. That was wrong of me.

Edited by butuki on 03/16/2006 08:47:39 MST.

It is too soon to rehash the BPL credo or site content. I for one am starting to realize that financially, you either need to be selling pretty good volume of something or getting kick-backs from "linked" sites in order to pay the bills in the internet world. I don't think BPL is doing either of those. That is where the $25 for on-line membership is going. Whether that continues to be a worth while investment for folks only time will tell. I think Miguel and myself, and probably others are looking for entertainment. While Ryan is approaching this site with the honorable objective of sharing the best un-biased info. on gear and technique (heavy on the gear) he is not as focused on the fact that it is ALL entertainment. For most new entries into this world...the entertainment is learning the basics and finding the right equipment. But as time goes by, the entertainment is banter or knowledge-gathering on the message board or reading an interesting trip report. This site is a means to an "end" ...and while that "end" may be deciding which pack to buy...it ultimately is entertainment. Because none of us have to be here, the only thing I would suggest to the BPL crew is don't lose focus on how to enhance the entertainment at every turn.

Awesome comment, Scott. Not because we are striving to be an entertainment company, but because we are thinking about ways to deliver education and information in an engaging way.

Of course this is about entertainment. Almost everyone here is talking about playing outside. This is about toys for grownups, but not in the usual `adult toys' sense.

I'll throw in my own two satang here about BPL subscriptions. From my standpoint, the subscription fee is worth it just on the member price of the cool gear and keeping the discussion boards. Some of the articles are good, some don't interest me. Not everything BPL does needs to meet my approval for me to be okay with paying for a membership.

My only gripe is that the submission process for authors is clunky. Try it. Go to the "information for Authors" link on the right-hand side of the page, and click on the "contact form" link where you are supposed to submit your article -- I end up at a "Help Center / Contact Us" page, and another link ("web-based contact center") that has a clunky little web form. Are people truly expected to submit articles this way?

Seriously, I'd probably be more willing to submit articles than BPL would be publishing them. But the infrastructure that needs to be there to submit an article doesn't seem to be thought through.

The heart and soul of Backpacking Light has always been "analysis". Ryan J's analytical bent is what set apart his writings first on the web and later with BPL. That analytical bent is what attracted me and surely others in the first place.

I think most hard core readers of this site yearn for articles like Caffin's on cold weather stoves (part one). Or Dixon's on fabrics. Or Ryan's and Alan's progressive education re "variable girth sleep systems" long ago. And many others. All thought provoking subjects.

I for one loved Carol's half dozen features last year on her trips, with descriptions of what gear worked for her and what didn't **in the context of the hike**. A good writer with an interesting viewpoint offers something more than a simple gear review.

Yet I also agree that lately there's been too much emphasis, at least by article count, on gear. Most gear reviews frankly I'm not interested in, but that's me. Nonetheless I appreciate the reviews' generally critical eye - certainly more than the pablum found on other sites and magazines. It only takes one insightful BPL review in a product category costing hundreds of dollars to more than pay for my $25 yearly subscription.

I'll be honest. I subscribed to BPL when it first went to subscription, then dropped it for a year and half. But I resubscribed last fall. At $25 I think BPL is a bargain, no less because the subscription helps support the entire universe of BPL - the parts you don't like and the gems you do.

As for me, I'm not concerned with deadlines. I'm a patient guy and don't need a constant fix. I recognize creativity is not a straightline function. There will be dead periods punctuated by bursts of energy. I'm willing to underwrite that creative process.

That said, when is Ryan going on his winter SUL, or did I miss that?

I like it all. It was the "analysis" articles that enticed me to subscribe the first time (I _really_ wanted to read those articles!), but I also appreciate the reviews--real reviews, not rah-rah garbage or a rehash of the manufacturer's blurb. I've saved many times the BPL subscription cost by not buying the wrong equipment in the last year. And the items I've bought, after careful consideration of the reviews and comparisons on BPL, have proven to work as expected. That's priceless. It has also been useful to read the reviews of gear that doesn't interest me, because I've been able to help my family and friends make more informed purchasing decisions.

I'm looking forward to more in-depth articles from BPL. Keep up the good work.

I too am evaluating the value of continuing my online subscription. For me, there has not been as much useful content the past 6-9 months as there was before. Not sure why that is---perhaps I've come to expect more or perhaps there's actually less.

On the "Ryan cult" thing, it was quite amusing to watch the extraordinary flurry of postings on the planning and frenetic build-up for his winter trip, as if Moses was heading up the mountain. The fact that the trip hasn't occurred is itself an added dimension to the story. All clean fun, for sure. But definitely amusing to watch.

As a small business, BPL will have to work through these issues, as all such companies do. Some succeed, others don't.

One of issues perhaps BPL is struggling with is balancing their time/energy/resources between being an information provider and an innovative equipment designer and seller. At some point, BPL may have to decide which it wants to be, or perhaps create separate entities so each can do what they do best without compromise due to lack of full focus on either.

and build some constructive crit, than to throw in the towel.

>>On the "Ryan cult" thing, it was quite amusing to watch the extraordinary flurry of postings on the planning and frenetic build-up for his winter trip, as if Moses was heading up the mountain...

Pretty patronizing stuff.
It was the issues brought up concerning LW Winter travel that people were focused on, not some culty fawning over Dr. Jordan. Those who were interested in changing the way to approach such a trip were well served. Those who didn't share such an interest eventually went elsewhere. Some tangible things such as ways to modify and improve canister stoves for Winter operation were the fruit of that thread. I've reduced some 20 % of my usual
Winter kit for multi-day trips on the basis of some of the ideas and issues that came up. Most of which came from various contributors to the thread, not Ryan Jordan.
Frankly, I think he is fairly modest in terms of his involvement in the forums and editorial content. He offers some original insights and promotes some controversial views. What of it? If it's a cult you want to attack, there are much juicier targets.

When you think about it, our subscriptions only cost about 7 cents a day. Even if you only get one tidbit a week that makes your next trip more fun and enjoyable, it only cost you 49 cents. Pretty good deal.

This is an interesting discussion. The $25 price makes a pretty clear cut cost/benefit decision. Economics would have been a much more interesting study if we had this Internet economy way back when.

Ryan, thanks for your response. I appreciate the challenge of leading a startup enterprise. It will be no easier as you work to maintain vitality and steer the content toward changing interests.

Three aspects of BPL’s value come to mind for me:
1. An engineering approach to outdoor gear. It’s just the way I think. Jordan’s and Alan Dixon’s writing have always interested me.
2. Field experience with gear and its performance in the context of a backpacking trip. Ryan's trip report from Yellowstone and Carol Crooker's field reports from 2005 are excellent examples of this type of information.
3. Content at BPL isn’t solely from the staff. The blend of editorial content with the forums is a great feature of BPL. Where else can we see the creativity of Bill Forsnell or insightful comments by Glen Van Pelski, Dan McHale, Ron Moak and other inventive folks?

Years ago Backpacker magazine represented the most timely and experienced perspective on our sport. Now BM has colorful advertising but puff content. BM and other print media can't compete with the content delivered on BPL. The same trend is happening in other interests that I have. Media on dead trees can’t keep pace with communication on the Internet.

I find helpful info on a number of sites. But here at BPL, I’ve learned about pitching a tarp, using a frameless pack, treating water, and a host of other topics. I continue to take weight off my back while having even more fun outdoors.

Ryan, I’m looking forward to the changes you’ve outlined.

Let's see, BPL subscriptions cost $25 - about half the cost of a fill-up at the gas station, and maybe even less environmental impact! (Sorry, couldn't resist ;>)

Edited by garkjr on 03/18/2006 14:10:48 MST.

I send in $15 a year for another forum (entirely
different topic) just to keep the forum going and
it doesn't have reviews or other features. $25 isn't
bad especially if you get a discount on an item or
two.

Folks,

BPL is one of the few places where smart, logical, experienced, knowledgeable people use scientific analysis and methodology to advance our knowedge of equipment and the sport. There are so many places where dogma, personal experience, however limited, and just plain manufacturer hype are promoted.

BPL has growing pains, this is simply a part of the stages of growth we all go though. Why have unrealisitic expectations of them when in all fairness, we spend money elsewhere with little or no expectations? Could it be we criticize the most those who we trust and value.

Constructive criticism is great but trash people by impuning negative motives has no place imo.

Evan

I say go cry somewheres else. Ryan and crew are doing an outstanding job.

This post was even added to the forum heat listing in the newsletter. What company would do that? Impressive testicular fortitude I say!

End of Rant.

Edited by jshann on 03/22/2006 08:44:11 MST.

Hi David,
Send author submissions to:
submissions@backpackinglight.com

We'll get that address linked to the Info for authors page. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
Carol

$25 is a hell of a lot of money for some people.

People here might feel high enough on their horses to make jokes about how $25 is a tank of gas, but its not a joke when your living paycheck to paycheck.

Its alot of money when $25 is ALL thats left when youve finished paying the bills and need to decide if you buy gas or food this week.

Frivoloties like access to a totally intangible website dont rate very high on the priority ladder...

It rates even lower when the outdoors are your life and every spare penny you have goes into buying many of the things you need to get out more.

So for the 16 year olds who still get an allowance from Mommy and Daddy or the people who have forgotten what its like to struggle to pay the bills, enjoy your $25 gear guide.

JR,

I understand where you are coming from. 25-27yrs ago, for ~2yrs we needed to live in an inner city HUD project. More than once food was lacking. I would have a quart of milk every other day (or a pint a day), so that my wife and kids would have something more, until the next payday.

We needed to prioritize. Non-essentials were not possible.

I could only work one low paying 40hr/week job as I was using my Vietnam Era GI Bill benefits to go to school in the evening - needed time for class and studying.

The reason why I am telling you this is 1) so that you know someone out there understands the points that you are trying to make, and 2) if you feel that you would like and use a membership to BPL on-line, and can't afford one, please post back. I'll be happy to contact BPL and see how I can obtain a membership for you - for me, now, at this point in my life, $25 is not an issue, so feel free to take me up on my offer if you would like to.

I nominate PJ for some fitting 2006 "Lightitude Award" category-- "SUL Secular Saint", perhaps?

Edited by kdesign on 03/22/2006 11:27:50 MST.

Nah...y'all just caught me on a rare good day, that's all. Considering all that I spent on gear for myself last year, my offer pales in comparison.

J R -

$25 or $2500 - don't spend either one casually. If a $25 BPL subscription fee eats into money that you could spend getting outdoors, skip BPL and buy the tank of gas or backpacking meals or trail permit fee and go backpacking. BPL is not a requirement to do that, and it's a whole lot more important for you to get outside and do it than it is to read about it.

When I went hiking in Utah last week, there were a few people that lacked "the latest gear" or "technique". One hiked in blue jeans (he brought an extra pair). It was snowing, we were wading freezing rivers, and he's wearing jeans. It didn't matter. He used what clothing he had smartly and had a GREAT time.

Point being: there's lots of "add-ons" to this sport. BPL is one of them. But it's not an essential ingredient to enjoy the outdoor experience.

Paul, I very much appreciate your offer. However, I have a pretty strict policy with this sort of thing, that pretty much begins and ends with "dont".

Besides, Im not sure I would "use" it as much as either of us would like. Much of my complaint stems from the fact when I was a member, I couldnt "use" much of what I was paying for. But we dont need to rehash that yet again.

Ryan, I completly understand what you are saying. I made my decision when I let my membership lapse.

While the article content has not been what I was hoping for, a few gems do pop up on the msg board on occasion and BPL is definatly the place you want to be if you have a question on a SUL/UL topic. Thats awesome, and I for one am glad for it.

I truely didnt want to make this thread about finances, and certainly not MY finances... but I did want to address the way some people around here seem to just dismiss the fact that for some people $25 is a bit more significant than "about half the cost of a fill-up at the gas station" and that people should "go cry somewheres else".

BPL has a rather significant variety of people here. From the guy who wants to figure out how to drop a few pounds from his 30lbs ruck, to the guy who is trying to scrape grams off his 4lbs pack. From the guy who doesnt think twice about dropping $400 on the latest gazingus pen from SuperCompany.com, to the guy who cobbles all of his gear together from stuff he bought at the local wallyworld. Some people here think membership should be so high it keeps the unwashed masses away, others here buy stuff at garage sales that couldnt possibly fit them or there needs but they know they can barter it off to save a buck or two on buying a backpack that doesnt weigh 5+lbs...

I know BPL is an "add-on". It always has been. Its an add-on for every single person who pays for it. Whether they pay for it casually or not.

Edited by RavenUL on 03/22/2006 13:05:03 MST.

Whatever it is that posesses me to make, analyse, and compare the gear that I take backpacking also leaves me rivited to the screen on some gear reviews, whereas I don't even open the page on others.

The reveiws that capture me all solve a problem. For example: the Integral Design E-vent jacket which, when it first came out, proposed to eliminate the wind jacket/ rain jacket redundancy. Many other jacket reviews, before and since, get narry a glance because they are either not lighter or more breathable so I don't really care. Often I will read a review long enough to determine whether the new gear dethrones a reigning champion--if it is not a threat I move on, whereas if it is a threat I am rivited.

I am not simply focusing on weight either. The Integral Designs e-vent never has been the lightest but it solves a problem: the lightest, most breathable, woven, waterproof jacket--a pretty narrow catagory. And when the Patagonia Spectre came out I had to then debate whether the sacrifice in breathability was worth the weight savings (how breathable is it really?)oh my, the tension, the delema.

I will put it this way: as a writer, you may want to wait to review something that you are excited about yourself--a new product that might replace a longtime favorite in your pack. Maybe it does, maybe it dosen't--read and find out.

By the way, I am very happy with my $25 membership.

Even if I hadn't gotten back my subscription price in discounts on gear, I'd think the subscription fair. I have paid more for print magazines that have provided me less.

I'm pleased to hear of plans for editorial changes and, as a publisher myself, understand how much lead time is needed for such changes to go into effect. Patience is still a virtue, and I hope subscribers won't nag the staff about speeding up the changes.

As for the "Ryan cult" business, I haven't see anything to justify that notion. I appreciate Ryan writing often--which is why his name is on a disproportionate number of articles--and just wish other regulars were able to be more regular.

My only recommendation would be for Ryan to drop "Dr." In my stylebook, that honorific is reserved for physicians, for a few ecclesiastics, and perhaps for university professors (though for them "Prof." is better). When used for any other holders of the Ph.D. (or the equivalent), the honorific tends to look like self-puffery.

(I have an aquaintance, with a Ph.D. in theology, who used to insist that the covers of his books include "Dr." before his name. He finally wised up and took the standard, and more modest, approach of using simply his name. Good writing doesn't need the prop of titles.)

The Online Editorial Calendar is now available.
Click the button under Resources in the left column on the home page or...
Online Editorial Calendar
It doesn't include everything we have planned, but it's a good sampling.
Looking forward to your feedback.

Edited by cmcrooker on 03/22/2006 21:04:23 MST.

Karl, I don't like and rarely do use the Dr. moniker. Informally, many folks refer to me as Dr. J, I don't mind that. I just don't like to invoke the PhD as justification for an authoritative opinion.

I use it from time to time to identify authorship on a paper that I'll want to add to my professional CV. That's really my only criteria for using it.

Our PR firm likes to highlight it because it's an interesting story, how a PhD became a backpacking magazine publisher. We'll save that for another time.

At any rate, I don't insist, ever, that anyone use it. I do agree that good writing does not require titles. There are way too many dr's out there that use the title to con people, it's unfortunate.

Ryan:

Thanks for the reply. Feel free to make your PR firm happy by recounting your conversion to publishing.

The new editorial calendar looks well thought out. I know how difficult it can be to develop topics and to assign them to the right writers--more difficult than most readers imagine.

I predict, though, that many people will ask for even more articles on techniques, since those come closest to the story mode, and everyone likes stories.

I have just recently dicovered BPL (started my subscription last fall). I have also been delighted to read re views that are not tainted with an obligation to endorse one company or another because they pay to advertise with the reviewer. I think $25.00 is a pretty good deal to insure that kind of unbiased evaluation. I can't get enough of this stuff and hope you guys don't completely give up on reviewing whats new and lighter.

The new editorial calendar does indeed look wonderful... just the kind of good mix of stories that I have been hoping for.

Perhaps to clarify my original post about throwing in the towel: I am not an expert on anything outdoors (well, perhaps in a discussion about long-distance bicycle touring might I might be able to hold my own. I've done a lot of it around the world for over 30 years), and always feel that I have more to learn. One of the original joys of finding BPL was that I was learning so much from people who had exciting new ideas to share with me. It's why I subscribed. BPL, as much as Ray Jardine's two early books "The Pacific Crest Trail Hiker's Handbook" and "Beyond Backpacking", and more recently Ed Speer's "Hammock Camping", more than any other source of information, taught me to rethink my entire backpacking equipment list and how I used it when out in the mountains. And the "how I used it" was in the end much more important and challenging than any amount of gear I might buy. It's taken me about three years to make a complete change, to understand the equipment, try it out, see what works and what doesn't, test my own limitations, rethink my gear lists again and again, teach myself to refrain from snatching up every new fangled wonder gear that popped up in favor of training, as Ryan has written so often, my mind, and then returning here for more lessons and tips and stories from the field from others who went out and actually learned something from the experiences they had. When these tutorial-like stories stopped appearing it was as if I had been cut off from learning more. Suddenly it seemed only the gear mattered and none of the wisdom gleaned from people with more experience and skills than I have. But that is what I still hunger for most.

The recent discussion about how to dress for constant wet-weather hiking was of deep interest to me because conditions in the mountains in Japan are very similar to those of the western Cascades in the States or of the Alps in New Zealand... rain, rain, and more rain. How do others deal with that? What kinds of techniques do they use for camping in muddy conditions? How do they keep reasonably dry and life-saving warm in constant drenching conditions? What kind of footwear do they use to deal with hours of slogging through mud? How does one train for the extreme vertical ups and downs that places like the mountains in Japan present? And so on. Articles like that would be both educational and fascinating for me, the way so many of the early Ryan Jordan, Alan Dixon, and others' articles were for me. I can still very vividly recall reading the account of Ryan, Alan, and Glen's late season walk in the Winds. i remember every photograph and how I took hours to peruse the way the shelters were set up and the clothing was worn. Ryan and Alan, (and Glen through our e-mails), you have literally changed my life. It may not be anything spiritually bound or earth-shaking, but for me personally the great old stories and articles were what kept me coming here day after day. And I still want that level of fascination and learning.

That's why I wrote what I did. I'm not cavalier about money and can't afford to just throw it away on a whim, but it was not about the $25 that I was talking. It was about the loss of what I felt was a great publication and what I gleaned from it. So with the new calendar and propect of being reengaged with great topics and challenging information, in a word, with further growing as a mountain walker, I'm really looking forward to what BPL has to offer. I most definitely will renew my subscription.

If my bringing the original criticisms up left a bad taste in any people's mouths, then please know that I did not do it casually or without regret. I do not like to publicly criticise people. I do not like to make people feel bad. But I do believe in high standards and voicing one's opinion when those standards don't seem to be measuring up. As a member I believe I have a right to say something, even if it is not popular. I hope that all the people who did chime in and voice their opinions on the magazine are respected for having the courage to say something, at the risk of getting publicly chastised. I believe that people voicing their opinions here made a difference for everyone in how the publication was developing. In the end I hope this is of benefit to everyone, including the BPL staff.

Isn't public debate just wonderful? Especially when it can make a real, measurable difference and can get so many different kinds of people together without rancor?

As to the speculation about Ryan's cult status... I have rarely believed that the cult figure him/ herself is the usual cause of the cult status... it is the followers who put someone into that position. I never meant to suggest that Ryan was placing himself into any position; he has always seemed friendly, accessible, and quite humble. He never gainsays anyone, replies when he has time, defers to those with more experience in something, and actively asks advice.

Personally I never call anyone "Dr." or any other honorific, not even doctors, and most certainly not presidents. All people are equal and deserve to be looked upon with equal measure. I will bow to no one and don't want anyone to bow to me. When someone expects me to give them some kind of loftier-than-me status then my opinion of them goes down. When they expect no praise but show by their actions their skill or knowledge or leadership, then I will gladly defer to them.

There are a lot of people here who get no fanfare who have immense amounts of knowledge, skills, imagination, and experience. It is the accumulation of it all here that I value so much. I just see BPL as a conduit for presenting and clarifying it all in one place. May the Force be with all of us!

Edited by butuki on 03/23/2006 02:10:05 MST.

Miguel,

I would fight for your right to express your opinion any day, freedom of speech is essential, despite today's political climate.

That said, you were not simply expressing your opinion, you were making personal accusations without checking your facts first, i.e., "unprofessional", etc. I think the problem is that we don't see each other face to face here on these electronic forums. It is altogether too easy to write and send these things.

I, myself, have learned to be more careful. To give you the benefit of the doubt, you are likely a fine and constructive person. IMO, however, you might consider how the tone of your own writing elicits the replies you got here. I am FOR you stimulating debate, but not for accusations that are not accurate. If the goal is to encourage a better product, people are least likely to hear the criticism if given in personal insult fashion. Perhaps this was not at all your intent, but it is how it looked to me.

Bernard, I accede your observation about me. I was wrong in some points and earlier I did apologize. Allow me to apologise here once again. I hope that you will at least leave me some leeway for redeeming myself here in these forums. Everyone makes mistakes, even you, and I honestly did not mean to offend or harm anyone. The mortification I feel upon reading your comment I think is pretty good punishment already. I think that most of my comments in these forums throughout the time I've been a member have been fair and non-accusatory, non-belligerent and even, on three occasions, in defense of others. I would appreciate it if you judge me by that rather than just by one comment I made.

We could go on to debate the dearness of one's money and the responsibility involved in paying for something, but that is outside the scope of this discussion, so I will let it drop. Such topics should be handled directly between customer and proprietor anyway.

As to your being willing to fight for my freedom... well... I do appreciate the sentiment, truly, but I'll also take it with a grain of salt. After all I am not American and I have my reservations about any need for fighting these days.

Edited by butuki on 03/23/2006 10:28:50 MST.

Thanks for being open, and I hope I included I have made similar mistakes. Point well taken about too much fighting. Post onward!

Group hug?

I like the new editorial calendar quite a bit. Looks like a great line-up--y'all are going to be busy.
-Mark

Throw in the towel? Nah. I'm pretty much on the same wave length as Bill Cooper. There is so much going on at this website that almost anyone who is into mountain doin's will find a lot of value/interest. It will just vary according to the individual. So absorb what makes sense to you and ignore the rest, but realize that it is offered in good faith by talented people who ain't gettin' rich in the process. I, personally, just renewed my suscription on that basis and will feel that my $25 will have been more than amply rewarded if Ryan publishes his gear/food list for the upcoming Arctic epic before leaving and does a post mortem on what worked and didn't work upon his return. It is a thread I have been following with a lot of interest. Even if he doesn't, I have no doubt my money will have been well spent by the renewal time next year. Absorbing the material presented here has sure lightened my load over the last couple of years.

I look at this from a different perspective. What I find here many times amazes me. It is truly unique. It provides what I will not find anywhere else at any cost. There is a lot of value in the free content and those who want more do get more for their subscription money. As I use the site I bump into the need for a subscription to get what I am seeking. But is it what you are seeking? Like with most things in life it isn’t going to please everyone and that can be viewed as unfortunate, necessary and a positive influence. This kind of feedback is valuable and necessary. We do wonder when things are delayed and an explanation and estimate of when it will arrive would be nice to see. There are some things folks are primed for that have not happened as we were led to expect and we don’t know why, when or if they will happen. For example the gear spreadsheet contest results and the SUL winter trip.

The BPL.com focus is broad and the goals are high but worthy goals. I am actually impressed at what is accomplished by the small unpaid and paid staff. While not perfect from my point of view nothing else really ever is either and I value this for what it does provide. I see a true interest and effort to provide what light weight backpackers want and I value very highly that I can trust it to be independent of other commercial interests.

I joined BPL for one reason and one reason only.

I don't have anyone in my life that I can share my passion with. The people close to me all think that I am crazy for hiking alone even when it rains; sleeping on the ground without a tent and eating raw oats and pemmican. They can't imagine why any sane person would do this! I can't seem to get through to them no matter what I say.

For $25 a year I can connect to people who enjoy the same things that I do. People who understand the how and WHY of it. People who are actually doing the things that I have always dreamed about.

I enjoy the articles and reviews here at BPL, but as far as I'm concerned we are writing the magazine ourselves one forum post at a time.

I can relate . Of course, the Forum, and participation in it are free. But there are so many other reasons to subscribe, anyway.

No complaints here, I think the BPL Staff are doing an amazing job and probably on a shoestring budget too. The latest crop of Editor's Choice products in Backpacker magazine proves just how valuable BPL is. Hec, next year I fully expect Backpacker to devote half a page giving a Gold Award to duct tape or moleskin. And the best tent will be one that two 6'6" editors can sit up and play cards in for 3 days. (How sick am I of that line :)

Anyway, one thing I would like to see at BPL is Environmental Advocacy or at least some leadership in this regard. This theme has been evident in Backpacker magazine for a while now.

What's the relative importance of an ultralight kit when the places we love are under siege? Yes, an ultralight kit is fantastic, but...

Would you opt for aluminum poles instead of fibraplex, and donate the money saved to a group who are fighting to save wildlands?

Would you be willing to spend less time thinking about your kit and more about the planet?

Would you write a letter to a politician to express your desire to save wildlands?

To me this is a very "weighty" issue! How about an Environmental or Wildlands Editor?

I accidentally posted the above anonymously.

I paraphrased this from the internet, and thought it might provide everyone with something to think about when expressing opinions here. Now just seemed like a convenient time to slip this tip in that had come to my mind several times over the past year.

-------------------
"Professor" Albert Mehrabian has pioneered the understanding of communications since the 1960's and established this classic statistic for the effectiveness of spoken communications:

- 7% of meaning is in the words that are spoken (i.e, written).
- 38% of meaning is paralinguistic (the way that the words are said).
- 55% of meaning is in facial expression.

It is fair to say that email and other written communications are limited to conveying words alone. The way that the words are said cannot be conveyed, and facial expression cannot be conveyed at all. Mehrabian provides us with a reference point as to why written communications, particularly quick, reduced emails and memos, so often result in confusion or cause offense.
-------------------

Of course, we can't really take the numbers too seriously since we have such a wide range of personalities, backgrounds, and nationalities in this forum.

The right to express our opinions is important, so this is just a friendly reminder for folks to maybe think twice before typing since we are limited in our ability to comunicate accuratey via the internet.

Tom

P.S. the "'s around the professor was just meant as a "wink and a nod" to get a smile from everyone.

>> Anyway, one thing I would like to see at BPL is Environmental Advocacy or at least some leadership in this regard.

Richard, this is one of the reasons we brought Matt Colon on board with our staff.

Matt's background is in environmental law (attorney) and he has a passion for environmental stewardship. Look for more from Matt in the future. None of his pieces appear as of yet on the Editorial Calendar, but he's working on a number of articles for us. In Issue 4 of the print magazine, he has a great overview piece of the Hayduke Trail. He's also researching and challenging the trends everyone is claiming about backpacking participation, and coming up with some interesting and contradictory data.

In addition, we're exploring issues of environmental stewardship extensively and hope to contribute to that discussion in meaningful and unique ways.

Thomas, Interesting info in your post. You might also find it interesting that back in the 70's the US Military taught courses in communications. Buzz words like "red flags" and "VEGA" were taught.

VEGA was particularly interesting. It was maintained that 90% of all communication was VEGA. Cp. this to 93% for the source you cited -so, these numbers basically agree as a 3% difference in this case is essentially meaningless.


VEGA was an acronym that stood for...

V = voice (the volume, speed of speaking, sound, or tone of a speakers voice)

E = eye contact (and head position) - this one is interesting, b/c in diff. cultures, eye contact when scolding/correcting a child can be either an indication of paying attention and showing interest (english cultures), or a rebellious challenge (some Hispanic cultures).

G = gestures and body language (arm position, etc), i.e some people "speak"/convey info with their hands or gestures. Often, gestures are a generalized associated with some ethnic groups (IME, Jewish and Italian are two distinct and diff. ethnic groups which are stereotypically associated with "talking with their hands).

A = attitude, including facial expressions which conveys info, together with the volume and intonation (the "V" above).

> BPL is one of the few places where smart, logical, experienced, knowledgeable people use scientific analysis and methodology to advance our knowedge of equipment and the sport.

Cor Blimey. Where do I fit in?

OK, joking. But we hear you, and this is certainly where I am going. As far as I understand things, Carol and Ryan and Alan are in full support of this trend, pushing hard.

You can expect an increasing focus on technical overviews, theory and analysis. The Winter Stoves pair of articles is a good example, but you can find quite a range of other technical articles already scattered through our offerings. Maybe we need to gather them up somehow in a separate section? Thoughts?

I do sometimes get tired of doing Yet Another Stove Review, although we will probably continue to do product reviews because the companies which provide the test samples judge us heavily on whether THEIR product got a mention. Hopefully, we will be able to use that gear in the more technical articles. It is always very instructive to line up several 'similar' items and compare them, to see what underlies good (and bad) design.

Yeah, growing pains. But feedback from you all is essential, so we know where to head. Give us the carrot and the stick.

Hi, JR:

I didn't see your post for about a week (out of town on business; no internet access), and then debated whether to respond for another week. After all, this section is intended to be a "don't dish it out if you can't take it" board.

My post was intended to be wry, not disparaging or dismissive (thus the little :>) at the end.) I was eating breakfast, and reading this thread; it suddenly struck me funny that we're all sitting here getting worked up about the cost of the website, but wouldn't be batting an eye as we stopped to fill the tank (perhaps SUV tanks, for some) on our way to work. So, I ran my fingers. As usual, trying to be a wise guy ended up offending someone; for that, I apologize.

I've been in that "do we take the kids to McDonald's for a treat, or do we buy the little one a pair of shoes?" position; the passage of time and a better job have pretty much removed it. (I'm an empty-nester now, and enjoy playing with gear - then passing the rejects along to help others get on the trail.) Your point is well-taken; all I can do is reiterate that it really wasn't intended as a "who cares - it's only $25" remark. It was simply intended to juxtapose two unrelated, but interesting, facts. Again, I apologize if I've offended.

Edited by garkjr on 03/29/2006 08:52:51 MST.

Everything old is new again.

I'm usually pretty stingy, but I joined, because I was a newbie and wanted to make smart first purchases. I guess if I follow my new-sport pattern, I'll get comfortable with what's going on, and then let the subscription lapse.

You guys have data we can't see. If most revenue comes from newbies like me, then the concentration should be on marketing - finding them. If most revenue comes from enduring members, then whatever makes them happy.

It would be nice if an advertising model worked for you all. It would have the benefit of growing cash flow with forum traffic ... but I don't know how well that is actually working for mid-level sites. And of course, we'd lose the nice clean pages ...

Another glimpse into the past to see how far we haven't come.

And John did not renew^

Edited by kthompson on 10/27/2012 23:01:22 MDT.

From the comments it looks like my expectations are lower than most.

I bought a lifetime membership just to support the discussion Forums. Any other benefits are gravy for me.

Well I guess if someone's gonna dig up an old thread I might as well contribute so no one thinks this forum is dying.... *sarcasm*

First I'm not at all surprised to see the same level of eagerly doom and gloom opinions here as I am on every single forum on the internet where people begin feeling entitled to whatever XYZ demand they have because they contributed some minute amount of money that they're utterly convinced is going towards staff parties with hookers and cocaine as they light their office fireplace with your rolled up.....twenty. Seriously, come on. That's hyperbole sure, but let's consider a few things shall we:

- If you're like me you're paying $24 (or whatever it is) per year or $100 for a lifetime (and by lifetime they mean the lifetime of this site, not your own lifetime, so don't go feeling all entitled about that next).

- Has anyone actually been to a Barnes & Nobel and seen the sad state of 75%-ads publications right now? What's that you say, you picked up some glossy perfect bound A5 sized magazine from Europe where it's only 25% ads and want BPL to be like that? Look at the price tag. What's it say? Oh yeah, probably about $10-15 AN ISSUE.

- When was the last time you bought a magazine and buying a couple copies (or a year's subscription) came with access to literally everything that publication has ever written? When in that fantasy was it easily accessible while you sat on the toilet thinking about your next trip? Yeah. Never.

- By comparison let's look at what $20 a year or $100 a lifetime gets you (at least in my world): 15 minutes or just over an hour of my VW mechanic's time to fix my car ($85/hour shop rate), 1/2 an hour of my attorney's time or two phone calls (@ $200/hr), 10 minutes of my intellectual property attorney's time (@ $400/hr), 3/4-1 hour of my own time as a freelance web developer (@ $125/hr).....a subscription to Backpacker magazine supported by ad dollars along with an ugly site filled with more ads, or a subscription to Cosmopolitan magazine for your wives or yourself (supported by ad bucks not your subscription fee), or about 4 decent coffee drinks from Starbucks (if you believe Starbucks has decent coffee drinks).

- I've probably saved myself hundreds of dollars in poor gear choices by simply reading forum posts and BPL articles (mostly BPL articles, not to take anything away from forum posters, it's just easier to digest one person's thoughts than 20 sorta similar thoughts). The subscription pays for itself.

- Lastly, I know how much it really costs to run a website even in bandwith alone not to mention how much it costs people to help contribute (and how much pride you have to swallow as a person, to ask people to do stuff for free, which is insanely tough). Frankly if BPL started taking ad money people would then gripe that the reviews became biased. You can't keep it real and keep the lights on, often.

Seriously, get the idea? You're supporting a tiny fraction of someone's time, and in all of those cases above, if you don't like what you're getting for your money you probably aren't a click or two away from voicing your perceived grievance in public. Imagine if you will, as you sat enjoying your Starbucks mochafrappawhateverthefu*kitscalled and because the barista didn't get it just the way you wanted, you stood up, and loudly asked "Hey, anyone else here get a totally terrible drink?! I've totally been thinking of never coming here again and we should tell the staff!!!" and waiting and listening as other people, also enjoying their drinks they willingly paid for, stand up and air their gripes of "yeah man, me too!!" Honestly though, 99% of people wouldn't dare. And it's rude, all the same.

So in conclusion, it's really not that much money (yeah, I'll say it, even if you're poor it's only a few meals at McD's) and as a new member I'm thrilled that over the last 2 weeks of being a rather obsessed newbie tearing into any content I can get my hands on here, I've STILL not managed to put a real dent in all the articles now available to me. Even amidst the spam I'm sure there's plenty of stuff for me to do like go find yet another article to read or tinker with my toiletry kit to shave some ounces.

And hey if you really want to split hairs, a healthy portion of your subscription fee should be going to taxes. So it's not even a BPL staff member using your $20 to light their fine cuban stogie, it's like, a tenner and a couple of singles. Now that's just depressing!

Edited by aeriksson on 10/27/2012 22:22:35 MDT.

"- When was the last time you bought a magazine and buying a couple copies (or a year's subscription) came with access to literally everything that publication has ever written? When in that fantasy was it easily accessible while you sat on the toilet thinking about your next trip? Yeah. Never."

Well BPL and TGO electronic subscriptions come to mind.

I don't think it a fair comparison to put BPL against print magazines. Apples and oranges.


Sure it is a small amount of money per person. If you say so. But I am not thinking about an individual. How many paying subscribers? How many times $25 makes it a big deal?

And there are ads on BPL.

If you like the print, electronic comparison. Print magazines show their publication amounts.


I would complain about the coffee in a respectable fashion with full expectations that the error was corrected. But then again I
would not go to 5bucks expecting a decent cup of coffee.

Edited by kthompson on 10/27/2012 23:03:08 MDT.

Yes it indeed apples to oranges to compare BPL to print publications, that was my point. Moreover, I was making that point because the OP did quite a bit of comparison drawing between BPL and a print publication. His indignation was based largely on similarities about how he'd be equally indignant if a print mag didn't meet his demands. So yes, I think holding BPL to the standard (which I would definitely argue is a LOW standard) of print mags, is ridiculous.

Also, re: the actual numbers....

Let's pretend BPL has 10,000 subscribers a year which would seem quite high to me, but let's just pretend as a best-case-scenario. So that's $250,000/year if they're all yearly. From there you set aside 1/3 ($83,000) to taxes leaving, $167,000 yearly budget. If you have a full time staff of 5 @$10/hr that's $100,000 a year before you've added burden (overhead, taxes, benefits) which is typically around 40-60% (another $40,000-60,000). Not to mention a server at a half-decent host, in order to deliver the site in the first place is probably $3,000-6,000/year. Oh wait look we only have $1,000 left, maybe $10,000 if we're lucky.

That doesn't take into account the actual figures which I'm sure are lower (possibly an order of magnitude lower based on how niche ultra-light backpacking is). More importantly, why would they tell you how few subscribers they have? If it's a high number, you'll cry bloody murder that you aren't being serviced precisely the way you want as BPL dances on the backs of the poor. And if it's too low people will proclaim "OMG I told you BPL was dying!" So why would BPL do it and simply feel like they've exposed themselves to another harsh critique no matter what? Come on. Again, this is one of those entitlement things.

As a private company they owe you none of that disclosure. Hell if BPL was one of your friends even, they don't owe you that either (how many of your friends' salaries so you honestly know? and why are you being so tacky as to ask?). You aren't the GAO and this isn't your tax money so you aren't entitled to ANY accounting. At best you're griping about a firstworldproblem because a place where you talk about, and have people do work so you can read about, your past time, is letting you down in some nebulous fashion only you can define.

My whole point is how little peoples feelings have changed in the last 6 years.

Volumes have been written about all the issues you raised.

Too bad you can't read the MLife section.

While I get it that you're the resident hater and self-appointed harsh critic, you're clearly old enough to remember the days before the internet when finding a group of likeminded enthusiasts wasn't a few clicks away from your bedroom / den / livingroom / bathroom. Those halcyon days probably less than 10 years ago when if you were lucky you knew a handful of people with whom you could geek-out over something like backpacking.

Remember those days when you couldn't troll that little group because if you p*ssed off that infinitely smaller sphere of influence you had then, you'd be SOL because they simply wouldn't call you back or show up to your BBQ or RSVP for your camping trip? Yeah, those were the days huh, before you got conned out of $25-100 for a shoddy product? With whom did you file your complaints then?

Maybe that this even exists in the first place should warrant a little gratitude, or if nothing else, go start a thread (even now) about something the remaining members can be interested in and contribute. Or frankly go start your own and simply beat BPL at it's own game since you clearly know better. Oh and don't forget to be ready for your complaint threads.

Opinion noted.

Opinions. Everyone has one and I am glad to live in a country where I am free to express one, popular or not.

Check out my trip reports. Different scenery than Texas and the east coast. You might find some of them interesting. Take a look at the Bay Area GGG for a positive contribution to the BPL community.

It's not about the money. It's deeper than that.

Edit: Oh. Thanks for judging me.

Feel free to PM me.

P.S.

v Hey Tom, working on it now. v

Edited by kthompson on 10/28/2012 00:19:19 MDT.

Ken,
You have had LOTS of posts in the past few months. Could you please post a few of the links of your trip reports. With three kids I have live vicariously through others. The trip reports are my favorite part of BPL...but my favorites are those that I post myself. :)
Thanks,
Tom

Alexander,

Your posts are very entertaining and, if Tom's numbers are correct, I'm only getting about 7%(the words) that you are contributing. Throw in the gestures, sounds, (sound effects?), facial expressions, etc. and I think you could do stand-up (think Lewis Black).

I'm going to allow my Lifetime (of web site) Membership to continue just so I can read what you post.

Daryl

Yeah - Alexander posts are very entertaining, thanks

I agree with what Tom says, but at some point what's the point?

Initially, maybe it was reasonable to be p...ed that BPL wasn't fulfilling it's obligations, but now, you know what you got so you either get enough value to continue or move on to something else.

I don't think Ryan "gets" what people are complaining about and his attempts to remedy actually add fuel to fire. Seeing people's reactions to this has some entertainment value.

"I don't think Ryan "gets" what people are complaining about and his attempts to remedy actually add fuel to fire. Seeing people's reactions to this has some entertainment value."

Especially when a six year old thread is so relevant.

I have to say that during the past year it has been real interesting looking at the behavior and communications with those that think I am too harsh, negative, a troll, what have you and those that agree with me. It's about 50/50. People want to tell me what I should care about and how much. The ones that oppose my views, way of doing things. Even name calling. Interesting enough those who say I should be using a different method have not suggested a single alternative. And nobody has said I am a liar so if the truth hurts or is not delivered softly on a platter I'm sorry , that's not me. Some of you must be sporting a huge pair to be going around life telling people what they should find value in. It's insulting.
I've kept the PM's from this period. Would make a very comedic montage. Some editing for language would need doing.

It's only a website. I've gotten this a hundred times. For me it's more. For those engaged in this discussion I think it is more than that to you too, isn't it?

If you want to belittle that, your call.

I've only been honest in presenting my feelings here. I'm no wordsmith. And with no facial interaction I'm sure things get lost in translation.

Edited by kthompson on 10/28/2012 09:24:51 MDT.

troll - "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages" - that doesn't really fit

I guess it's just that you keep saying the same thing

Yet here I am, giving you advice that you shouldn't give Ryan advice - call me hypocritical

I just couldn't help myself making a comment. I have no problem with any of your posts - carry on...

Maybe its time for one of us to use this line:

here

I thank you Jerry.

I think I have said all I have to say on the subject of BPL and RJ.

Felt it needed saying, and feel better for have spoken up and said something.

...but you never know.


Edit: Hah! Daryl.

Edited by kthompson on 10/28/2012 09:51:27 MDT.

wow, we dig up a thread that is 6 years old.....I wish we would be more positive about this. As Alexander noted earlier, if you don't like this site or the direction or lack there of, then make you own. The money that I have spent has been well worth it. The information that I have gained over the last 10 years has been something that I cannot put value to. This is turning into a sad state of affairs......really

Ken, Ken, Ken,...

This fire was almost out and now I fear you've fanned it back to life : )

yes I did.

After reading through the recent posts, I could not help but think this is ridiculous. Oh well.

Also Jerry, at least my post was positive.

Now, now...

It might be true that Ken sometimes expresses his displeasure with the way things are handled in BPL, and if you only take what he has written over the last year you might think he thinks of nothing but trashing BPL, but if you take the time to get to know him (as I have for a long time now), you'll know that he actually does a lot in the UL community to help promote it and provide positive experiences, a lot of it in the real world. His Bay Area GGG gatherings are very popular and have nothing to do with negative attitudes. My take on his critical posts is that the community, of which he has been an integral part of for many years, is beloved to him and he doesn't want to see it degrade into oblivion. Recently there is a strong sense here that things might not survive much longer. I, too, am very concerned about this, and having been a member of a few very popular forums that imploded and disappeared, the atmosphere is much the same here now as when those forums went kaput. This sense of foreboding did not exist in BPL just five years ago, no matter how hot the arguments got. Please note that Ken's criticisms are specific; they are only concerned with the running and survival of the site and community. I think he brings up legitimate points. Whether or not you agree with him is beside the point... as a paying member he has the right, and you could even say the responsibility to speak up when things are going awry. I'd say he has done more to kick the ball back into action than anyone else here. If he hadn't said anything about the mess with membership benefits how many people would have spoken up? It's usually the squeaky wheels that everyone complains about, and often the squeaky wheels are ridiculed, ostracized, and disliked. It takes courage to stand up to that.

I think it is the mark of a good community member to be involved at different levels in the community, and I think it is the mark of a responsible and concerned member when they have the courage and take the time to express what they see as problems. Always being nice and skirting over the problems do nothing to identify and address those problems. Sometimes you have to throw in some seemingly hurtful insights that make others uncomfortable in order for everyone to become aware of what the problems might be.

As I've stated before, I think that the BPL community does not belong to Ryan. The site does and the medium through which we have access to one another does, but not the community. The community was created by each of us, in our willingness to be active and talk to one another. Each of us puts in the work to listen to, think about the topics, and speak to one another. We volunteer this, on our own time, with our own resources. Many of us (now all of us) pay for the access to this community. I'm not sure whether that makes this a better community or not, though I suspect it has nothing to do with the quality of the community discussions. Serendipity brought all these unique people together, and good timing on Ryan's part.

The pivot to the genesis of the community of course were the original articles and insights Ryan and company provided in the early years of BPL. Ryan created the interest and the dialogue that got us all started, and he gave that insight a certain bent and a voice. In that way Ryan has become one of the "leaders" of the movement; he brought together all the disparate information that was floating around the Ineternet before BPL came into existence (anyone who has been around that long will remember Michael Conner, John O, Ultralight Joe, Centerwalk, Onestep, and Adventure Alan... all of whom started writing about UL while Ryan was still writing his earliest blog). But he did not start the movement, nor was he the earliest adopter of the UL methods.

One of the exciting things about the UL movement was the organic development of the community. It grew out of an informal interaction of people who were very eager to share their ideas for free. If not for this freewheeling, voluntary sharing of information, the UL movement would never have taken off. BPL would never have taken off. Nowadays that laissez-faire attitude has changed somewhat, with more emphasis on somehow making money. Once that started, the carefree community was bound to lose some of its spontaneity and creativity.

That the community that Ken and I and others care about and get serious about. The BPL community itself had grown into something worth protecting and putting our hearts into. When things started to lose integrity and direction, people like Ken called it out, not to cause trouble, but to get people to do something about it before the whole community petered out.

Edit: Backpacking Lightweight was actually the first forum on lightweight hiking. It never caught on the way BPL did

Edited by butuki on 10/28/2012 21:45:32 MDT.

Ken - Wow, now you're dragging up 6 year old threads to continue your war on Ryan and BPL? How many thousands of posts did you go through? Don't you have something more constructive to do with your time? You really need to just start your own website and forums because there is no way you are ever going to be happy with BPL. Your constant negativity, whining and sarcasm isn't good for you or the BPL forums.
Ron

+1 Ron

Actually I bump this thread last year, Ron. *sarcasm*

I was perfectly happy with BPL until late, and all these poor management practices came to a head.

Would you care to extrapolate any particular point I have brought up? Or is your disapproval of me just the way I present them?

You can complain how I do things and present myself, that's OK. I expect to be able to do the same.


@Miguel. Thanks so much for that post. I really should have you do all my talking for me as you can keep your cool, whereas I cannot.

So let's not get all personal anymore. Let's discuss facts. If you are interested.

Edited by kthompson on 10/28/2012 13:12:57 MDT.

But Ken, people have, and then you post something and the edit it. I too have questioned the way you have done this and have not had a "friendly" encounter afterwards. You do not play well on that front. You constantly post something after the fact and the edit out nasty replies. I disagree with you on that.

yes BPL needs some work. Most definitely. But the way you go about your business, myself and others feel it lacks in constructiveness or tact.

"yes BPL needs some work. Most definitely. But the way you go about your business, myself and others feel it lacks in constructiveness or tact."

Fair enough. I get hot and post. Then think better of it later. Character trait or flaw, it's there. I'm way more laid back than my parents in this regard. Man, that's a tough crowd.

It really ticks me off though when people want to tell me what I should find value in, believe in. And go the extra step to devalue my opinion, beliefs because they don't match theirs. How does this work?

It really would be best if Miguel did my communicating for me. Absolutely spot on again.

It interesting that people who disagree with me and my ways here like to comment on the threads whereas the people who are more supportive like to PM me. What do you think that means? If someone has to be a pariah I guess they are happy for me to play that part, which is fine. Ryan has his distractors and I have mine. Fair is fair.

Meet me sometime. You'll have a real opinion based on a whole variety of things to then judge me by. I'll buy the first beer.

This internet persona is not the whole picture. I'm sure the same goes for the rest of you.

See you on the trail.

But I have met you and have had a beer with you, and it was a nice time :)

Next beer on you then. OK?

Someday.....yes!

Beer on Ken !

Ken - I don't know you but the people that know you personally speak well of you and your work with the GGG is commendable. But frequently you aren't that nice guy on the BPL forums, you are a ball of anger lashing out. I know that you don't like the way Ryan runs BPL but your approach is over the top and ultimately counterproductive, few people listen to someone that comes across as personally hostile. Both you and Ryan want to promote lightweight backpacking, maybe you should view him as a positive influence in the field instead of focusing on everything you would do differently if you were in charge. Both of you want to promote lightweight backpacking,maybe you should try to consider him an ally in promoting the same goal instead of an opponent.
Ron

Ron, I know that Ryan is going through a hard time, and therefore there must be influences that affect his own BPL voice, but hasn't he been somewhat "antisocial", too? He hasn't made any attacks on specific people, but he has alluded to people and companies in his rather ornery articles of late. The difference between Ryan's position and Ken's is that Ryan, as a leader here can lash out in general with his own concerns, whereas Ken, with his focus on trying to weed out the problems with BPL must necessarily focus on Ryan. Who or what else is he to focus on, since Ryan is the one in charge? I don't think Ken is attacking Ryan as a private person and stand up guy, but as the public leader of this site and community. I think it is important to keep the two separate. I'm not sure why Ryan is forgiven for his transgressions, whereas as Ken is constantly raked over the coals. If I constantly faced people who were trying to tell me to shut up, I, too, would get angry and defensive. So much of all this, for all concerned, including Ryan, hang on the emotional side of the story, which can often come across as disrespectful on an online, written forum. Remember it is very hard to read nuances in the written form, unless you take a lot of time to spell it out. That is why my posts are always so long... trying to get the image and atmosphere and intention in my words just right. And taking a lot of time doing it! And even then often stepping on people's toes or completely ruining a conversation.

Edited by butuki on 10/28/2012 22:02:01 MDT.

"That is why my posts are always so long... trying to get the image and atmosphere and intention in my words just right. And taking a lot of time doing it! And even then often stepping on people's toes or completely ruining a conversation."

Screw 'em! (I like to keep my posts short.....)

Martyr complex much, Ken? Between Ken's talk that this is "bigger [to him]", repeated self flagellation of simply doing the dirty work of making this a better place for all of us (the Thank You cards are bringing USPS to its knees I'm sure), and Miguel all but likening him to some sort of misunderstood BPL Jesus turning cuban fiber into calorie-rich rehydrated meals, I'm quite literally laughing out loud at the utter self-importance on display. Oh internet forums, I love you so!

More to the point, it couldn't more deliciously illustrate that some serious perspective is needed. You aren't fighting the good fight, Ryan Jordan torch your land and family, and you sure as hell don't look like Russell Crowe in Gladiator. Seriously, get over it. You're "chasing the dragon" as they say in 12 Steps. Nothing is ever going to live up to the nostalgia you so annoyingly seek to force people to create for you.

And people make causes out of perceived slights every day, so trumpeting your Ken's Coalition of the Willing just shows that like someone screaming about no wire hangers, just because they make a fuss and continue to do so, doesn't lend a shred of legitimacy to anything by logically begging the question.** Kudos though on immediately falling back on patriotic talk of "rights" and "opinions" and all that, as if BPL's space on the Internet presumptuously exists solely in the United States. Digging up the corpses of our founding fathers who would no doubt fight for your right to hobby, is a nice touch. Will you "Godwin" the discussion next? Only time will tell!

The funniest and saddest thing about this apparent multi-year Ken's Mujahedin (I picture a shabby looking bottle of bitter balsamic vinaigrette in a grocery store next to the more pleasant and affable Ken's Ranch) is how ridiculously absurd it is to watch hobbyists go more than a little bit feral.*** ****


** Grammar note: I'm referring to the logical fallacy of Begging the Question, not the godd*mned ignorant use of the phrase as an incorrect substitute for, "raises the question." I have my own self-righteous cross to bear and grammar is that burden. I'll start a thread and bring it up again in 2017 if people are still making the mistake.

*** The irony is that with this post and my other I'm almost as guilty as Ken, albeit on an infinitely smaller scale, and as such I shall now make my exit as the triumphant smiter of Trolls. *self-aware sarcasm* Actually I'm just going to go see if I can snake any of you chumps for good deals on the Gear Swap threads. ;-)

**** Edited to correct spelling of "feral" per Ken's comment. I however prefer to think that Castro has something to do with the fabric and will leave it as "cuban" as God intended.

Edited by aeriksson on 10/29/2012 19:47:59 MDT.

I'm glad I don't look like Russell Crowe.

Most of your post I don't understand. Too many references I don't understand. Not interested enough to look up.

But thank you for your time and opinion.

BTW It's spelled cuben and feral, not cuban or ferrel.

Edited by kthompson on 10/29/2012 06:37:05 MDT.

I'm going to ignore the little spat between Ken and Alexander and just take you up on your ever delightful spring freshness, Doug.

Screw 'em! (I like to keep my posts short.....)

Laughter is the best medicine, I'm learning these days. And so is a succinct, to-the-point spare rejoinder. Touché!

"BTW It's spelled cuben and feral, not cuban or ferrel."

He might have been referring to Mark Cuban and Will Ferr ...... errrrr, nope, that wouldn't be right either..... Oh well.

Cuba did just relax it travel restrictions for its citizens. Maybe some can go wild now.

As the subject denotes, I've corrected the singular spelling error of "feral" per Ken's point. That said I really do prefer "cuban fiber" as it lends a bit of dictatorial heft to an otherwise gossamer conversation.

Eh? You see what I did there?! You can all call me the ultralight pun master. ;-D

"You can all call me the ultralight pun master."

Sorry Alec, you attain master status when you don't have to draw attention to your punditry, you just KNOW that everyone (worth a hoot) gets it. And appreciates it.

I believe you just KNOW everyone appreciates it. When you realize they get it without assistance, that's just sublime, grasshopper.

Nah you're right. I'm actually just hamming it up and I'd say 3/4 of my puns I only realize were puns after the fact. ;-)

"I'm actually just hamming it up and I'd say 3/4 of my puns I only realize were puns after the fact. "

That's nothing. A dear friend once told me that I was funny only about 10 percent of the time I thought I was. Of course, she was drunk, but I took it to heart anyway....

I think you're funny, maybe, 15% of the time Doug

And I appreciate new blood, like Alex

Does punness depend on the creator's intentions?

New playmates.

Always a good entertainment value.

Especially when they can spell.


We're a pun friendly household. Renee makes them a lot and never realizes it.

But sarcasm reigns supreme. We got it in spades here.

But sarcasm reigns supreme. We got it in spades here.

I'm much more of an irony man, myself. Sarcasm's too obvious.

I kind of like paradoxes

"I kind of like paradoxes"

Which is why you like voting for the lesser of two evils..... ;-)

Is voting for the lessor of two evils a paradox?

I'll have to think about that...

I also like spelling words with an "or" rather than the correct "er"

and there's the commercial for REI(?). It shows the parents out doing some REI thing in the wild and the daughter on the computer saying that her parents aren't really living because they have only 15 "friends" but she has 600. And then she gets overtaken by interesting video on the computer and gushes "that is not a real puppy...". That's me, posting on BPL rather than actually doing something.