This is a sample clothing list I am working with. Emphasis is for spring/fall under 5000' in the Washington Cascades: generally 40F and wet with possible light snow and night temperatures below freezing. I'm warm blooded.

I'm interested to see what people have found to be effective layering at certain temperature ranges.

Duofold polyester briefs 2.50
Patagonia mid-weight Capilene socks (1 pair) 2.60 Size XL
Marmot DriClime windshirt 16.00
Sportif micro fleece button shirt 13.50 Size XL
GoLite C-Thru Lite-Weight LS top 5.00 Size XL
REI polyester long johns 9.00 Size XL
Cotton bandanna 1.10
Mountain Hardwear Tempest gloves 2.80 Size L
Outdoor Research Peruvian wind-block fleece cap 1.90 Size XL
Total packed, ounces 54.40
Total packed, pounds 3.40


Patagonia mid-weight Capilene socks 2.60 Size XL
Duofold polyester briefs 2.50
Patagonia silk-weight Capilene tee shirt 6.00 Size XL
Mountain Hardwear Pack Pants (convertible) 17.80
Tilley T5 hat 5.30
Vasque Velocity trail running shoes 29.00 Size 10
Mont-Bell stretch gaiters 1.50
Pearl Izumi bike gloves 1.50
Total packed, ounces 66.20
Total packed, pounds 4.14

Total clothing, pounds 7.54


I'm thinking of adding a fleece vest. I have a windstopper, plain polartec 200, or a microfleece. I'll need to check weights tonite.

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/14/2006 15:01:59 MST.

Shorts and long-johns: check. ;)

>I'm thinking of adding a fleece vest.

You'd have to be really warm-blooded to stay warm and dry in +30F sleet wearing two core layers of fleece and a windshirt (speaking from experience; I froze). Either of the fleeces will probably be too warm for hiking, so they wouldn't be used for hiking layering, just insulation. The vest probably weighs as much as your Sportif fleece shirt (mine do), which means you'd be carrying 27 oz of fleece. You could get more warmth from a Patagonia Micropuff (or BMW Cocoon, or equiv.) for half the weight (XL: 13.2 oz).

Your only rain gear is a DriClime windshirt? I looked up DriClime on Marmot's site and it's listed as water resistant. Unless you're going to stay in your tent when the weather is bad, I think you're going to get soaked to the bone. I can't see hiking in Washington in any season without waterproof rain gear. I don't know much about the DriClime windshirt, and I'm sure it's great, but you could find a waterproof/breathable shell for the same weight or less. I'm not going to argue against hiking in a windshirt, but you might consider carrying both an ultralight windshirt, such as a Montane Aero, and a w/b shell for about the same weight as the DriClime.

That's about all I've got to contribute. I'm looking forward to a good discussion in this thread--I'm also revising my shoulder-season Washington Olympic/Cascade clothing.

You're right on the Marmot windshirt. I left the Gatewood Cape Shelter (11oz.) off the list, which is my primary rain gear. I could add Precip rain pants (8.3oz.) to the fray.

The Marmot DriClime windshirts are lined with a micro fleece (which is why they weigh 16oz.), so you get two layers in one garment. You can wear them alone or layered. They are really versatile and breath well-- they have mesh pit vents and a full zipper.

I appreciate your clarity on the fleece layers. I do have a Marmot polyfill sweater that is 19oz. and would add a lot of warmth. If I were putting together a winter list, it would be there at first thought. It would be cozy in camp, but I would overheat wearing it on the trail.

My rationale with the fleece vest was alternate layering. I've used the Marmot DriClime with a wicking top and a vest with good results-- base layer and vest, base layer and DriClime, and all three layers. Hauling both the DriClime and the polyfill sweater seemed to be overkill. I could switch to microfleece and a thin wind shirt and add the sweater, etc, etc.

It's quite a chess game. The contents of my current gear locker for tops and bottoms is below. I'm all ears for picking the best arrangment of layers. I'm okay on gaiters, gloves and hats.

Item Weight, ounces

Patagonia Capilene tee shirt 6.4
Marmot polyester tee 4.9
GoLite C-Thru Lite-Weight LS top 5.0
Marmot mid-weight polyester ½ zip long sleeve. 8.8
Spotif microfleece crew pullover 9.3
Sportif microfleece button shirt 13.5
New Balance microfleece vest 10.4
Polartec 200 weight vest 10.9
Windstopper vest 13.4
Marmot polyfill sweater 19
Marmot DriClime wind shirt 16
REI 200 weight fleece pull-over 18.9
EMS wind shirt 5.8
Marmot Precip rain jacket 12.9


Polyester briefs 2.5
Tilley nylon/lycra tights 6.0
Campmor expedition weight long johns 8.0
REI polyester long johns 9.3
Nike ACG nylon shorts with liner 5.3
REI Sahara shorts 8.5
EMS wind pants 5.5
Mountain Hardwear Pack Pants (convertible) 17.8
Marmot Precip pants 8.3

Edited by dwambaugh on 03/15/2006 00:00:32 MST.

>I left the Gatewood Cape Shelter (11oz.) off the list


Funny, that's also my new rain gear solution. I've been carrying w/b Moonstone Flight Jacket (XL: 17.2 oz) and REI Convergence Zone/Elements half-zip pants (L: 14.4 oz). I think pants may not be as necessary with the cape, so I'll probably switch to DriDucks pants (XXL: 4.4 oz) for use only in nasty weather. The cape also replaces my Dana pack cover w/hood (16.2 oz), so switching to the cape saves me over two pounds.


>I do have a Marmot polyfill sweater that is 19oz. and would add a lot of warmth.


That's what I was thinking. Even though your Marmot sweater weighs 6-8 oz more than a Micropuff or Coccoon pullover, it's still 5.4 oz lighter (and warmer and more compressible) than the Sportif microfleece and the Polartec 200 vest together. Since you already have the Marmot DriClime windshirt's fleece for warmth while hiking (if necessary), you only need camp/sleeping insulation--the more, the merrier.

You proposed bringing a Golite C-Thru LS top and a Patagonia Capilene silkweight tee, in addition to the Marmot DriClime wind shirt. There's nothing wrong with bringing two shirts (one to wear and one to wash&dry), but you're unlikely to wear both at the same time, since you also have the windshirt. You might consider bringing only one for a short hike. Another possibility, if you are reasonably warm-blooded, is to hike in one of the shirts and the windproof layer (only) of the DriClime, and leave the DriClime's fleece layer at home. This would save an additional 10 oz (assuming the DriClime's windproof layer weighs 5.8 oz or less; if more, then take the EMS wind shirt?).

Leg warmth is also subject to great individual variance, but you may not need longjohns with your pack pants, especially when hiking. In camp, the Precip rain pants are warmer (and lighter) than the longjohns. I know it's heresy, but I don't think I'll be carrying longjohns on future trips in Washington.

Edited by Otter on 03/22/2006 15:00:41 MST.

Sadly, the Marmot DriClime windshirt doesn't come apart-- as it comes from the factory. Your idea of having them separate is great-- Marmot should do that.

I really like the Marmot wind shirt, but it doesn't fit into the ultralight pallet as well as I would like. It is made with a polyester shell with good DWR qualities and has a wicking fleece lining and mesh pit zips. It would be fine as insulation in summer weather. It is comfortable worn by itself, giving a wicking layer and windshirt at the same time. I would have plenty of confidence taking off in the summer with a tee shirt, the Marmot and the cape.

Fall/winter/spring is a little dicier. A cold season selection of long sleeve wicking layer, microfleece, light windshirt and polyfill sweater would leave a lot of layering options.

I am warm blooded enough that hiking pants with an optional wicking layer for bottoms would cover any weather I'm likely to be camping in-- or caught by surprise. So the bottom layers are handled with a newly added 5oz pair of polyester long johns, the hiking pants and the rain pants as needed.

I've considered that the long johns and either base layer or microfleece would be good for sleeping too. Having one extra base layer top may be needed with my perspiration level-- one to wear on the trail and another at camp for dry clothes and sleeping.

The advice on the extraneous fleece is great and I can concentrate on finding lighter insulation layers for future use. I have a whole $10 in that Marmot sweater and it is hardly inferior gear, just a few ounces more than optimal.

It looks like some good ol' field experience is what is needed and I'll be hauling one extra garment each trip and trying different layers to see what I like.

I juggled some stuff around and got a good deal on a Moonstone polyfill pull-over vest (9oz.) that fits into my array of clothing well.

So skin out, here's what I come up with:

Six Moon Designs Gatewood Cape Shelter 11.00
Wigwam Ulitmax Outdoor Scrambler socks (1 pair on, 1 pair spare)3.8
Marmot DriClime windshirt 16.00
Moonstone polyfill pull-over vest 9.00
GoLite C-Thru Lite-Weight LS top 5.00
Patagonia silk-weight Capilene long johns 6.00
Mountain Hardwear Tempest gloves 2.80
Outdoor Research Peruvian wind-block fleece cap 1.90
Sprint Nylon Mesh Shoe 1.80
Marmot PreCip rain pants 8.30
Patagonia silk-weight Capilene tee shirt 6.00
Duofold polyester briefs 2.60
Mountain Hardwear Pack Pants (convertible) 17.80
Tilley T5 hat 5.30
Vasque Velocity trail running shoes 29.00
Mont-Bell stretch gaiters 1.50
Pearl Izumi bike gloves 1.50

> got a good deal on a Moonstone polyfill pull-over vest (9oz.)


I saw that in your other thread. Nice and light. Looks warm; I'll have to keep an eye out for that at Sierra Trading Post.


>It looks like some good ol' field experience is what is needed and I'll be hauling one extra garment each trip and trying different layers to see what I like.


I recommend bringing your EMS wind shirt and seeing if it can replace your Marmot DriClime. You may not need the DriClime's insulation while you're hiking, and hopefully the Moonstone will be warm enough by itself when you're not. Also, see if you can go without the long-johns, since you have the Marmot PreCip pants for camp. Dropping both of these would save a full pound.

Let us know how it works out, esp. in spring conditions. I'll be carrying similar clothing (and similar extra clothing, too) when I'm in the Olympic mountains the summer. I may post a gear list later.

The Moonstone vest is much like the Patagonia Micro Puff and other thin, light synthetic insulation layers. The particular model I have is no longer made.

I question whether these designs are really any advantage over a simpler, breathable, and much less expensive fleece garment. The real loft is a thin layer of polyester batting held together with two more layers of fabric. That fabric provides some wind and convection protection but it isn't as breathable as a layer of 200 weight fleece. I wonder if the perception of warmth with these thin polyfill garments is a healthy percentage of vapor barrier effect. Fleece is all loft and moisture can transport right on through. The polyfill garments are warmer by themselves but that iginores working as part of an integrated system.

We can look at the micofleece shirts the same way-- light, moisture transporting, simple, and cheap. Again they are all loft and no extra fabric layers. They can be worn directly against the skin and are excellent for extending the temperature range of a lighter sleeping bag. It is practical to launder them on the trail too as they will dry quickly.

I've clung to the Marmot DriClime simply because I like it. With the wicking lining you can wear it as a base layer and with the full zip and pit vents it gives great ventilation. I've put it on when coming to a stop when wearing a poly tee shirt and I could actually feel it pull the moisture off. It is tougher than a UL windshirt, has three pockets and the fleece lining. At 16 ounces in an XL size we could compare it to a 3 ounce wind shirt and a 9 ounce microfleece crew-- 4 ounces more. And I paid $12 for it :)

The EMS wind shirt has some sort of coating inside making it feel stuffy and clammy. I have yet to use it where I could really test the breathablity. It does have good DWR properties and wind protection. I may need to look for a more breathable wind shirt to test that combination. I do think they have real potential for summer hiking.

Thanks for your input too-- much appreciated.

> I wonder if the perception of warmth with these thin polyfill garments is a healthy percentage of vapor barrier effect.


I don't think so; they're just as breathable as a synthetic sleeping bag. My Micropuff is very breathable, because I've rolled out of bed and taken it off without feeling the slightest bit of moisture chill. No VB effect there.


>The polyfill garments are warmer by themselves but that iginores working as part of an integrated system.


I'm using the Micropuff as part of my cold-weather clothing and sleeping systems. (See "UL Hommock (sic) Camping" thread for details if you're interested.) It doesn't hold moisture and it does hold in the heat very well, the two crucial tasks I require (besides being lightweight). It's too warm for hiking, even in winter.

Fleece is certainly comfortable and breathable, I won't argue with that. A fleece saved me from hypothermia once, and I have been using a lightweight fleece as my winter mid-layer. The reason I don't use fleece for spring/fall is that it's too warm when I'm moving, but not warm enough when I'm camped. The Micropuff has twice the loft of my windstopper fleece, and it weighs less. That does it for me.


> I've clung to the Marmot DriClime simply because I like it.


That's a good enough reason. Weight isn't everything (heresy!). And if you need light insulation while hiking, then it does seem like a good solution.


>I may need to look for a more breathable wind shirt to test that combination. I do think they have real potential for summer hiking.


I'm very impressed by my new Montane Aero. I'm looking forward to using it this summer.

Here's some recent revisions. I've abandoned the Marmot DriClime windshirt for a Montane Lite-Speed jacket and added a Mountain Hardwear expedition weight Power Stretch Zip long sleeve tee shirt. The Power Stretch tee is supposed to be a base layer but I was looking at it as more of an intermediate layer. With the thick layer of the MH tee shirt with the polyfill vest, the C-Thru shirt and the wind shirt I should have plenty of layering options and it will be very cozy to sleep in. I looked at items like the Patagonia micro puff jacket, and Monnstone and GoLite versions of the same and all seemed to be a trade off in a lot of extra cloth layers to get the loft-- read weight, less breathability, and cost.

For truly cold weather I have a Marmot polyfill sweater that has about twice the loft of the micro puff niche and weighs just a few ounces more at 19oz. That jacket plus the MH shirt and the windshirt would leave me *toasty.*

I'm grinding around on the MH Pack Pants. They are wonderfully made, but nearly 18oz with all the bells ans whistles. I have some light wind pants, several shorts to choose from and the Precip pants which I need to carry for rain anyway. I'm thinking about switching the pants out for some light shorts with a liner (about 5oz) and relying on the long johns and Precip rain pants to fill the gap. For summer I would go for that combo anyway-- it's the spring/fall combo that leans me to the Pack Pants. I guess htere's no perfect three season list, eh?

Six Moon Designs Gatewood Cape Shelter 11.00
Wigwam Ulitmax Outdoor Scrambler socks (1 pair on, 1 pair spare) 3.80
Montane Lite-Speed jacket 3.00
Mountain Hardwear Power Stretch Zip Tee 10.00
Moonstone polyfill pull-over vest 9.00
GoLite C-Thru Lite-Weight LS top 5.00
Patagonia silk-weight Capilene long johns 6.00
Mountain Hardwear Tempest gloves 2.80
Outdoor Research Peruvian wind-block fleece cap 1.90
Sprint Nylon Mesh Shoe 1.80
Marmot PreCip rain pants 8.30
Patagonia silk-weight Capilene tee shirt 6.00
Duofold polyester briefs 2.60
Mountain Hardwear Pack Pants (convertible) 17.80
Tilley T5 hat 5.30
Vasque Velocity trail running shoes 29.00
Mont-Bell stretch gaiters 1.50
Pearl Izumi bike gloves 1.50

Colder weather:

Add Marmot polyfill sweater, 19.0
Add expedition weight long johns (minus silkweights) +8.0, -5.0

Warmer weather:
Add light hiking shorts with liner, 5.0
Add wind pants, 5.0
Minus one pair breifs -2.6
Minus Pack Pants -17.8

>The Power Stretch tee is supposed to be a base layer but I was looking at it as more of an intermediate layer.


Agreed. Your base tee, the Power Stretch tee and a windshirt should keep you toasty on the trail on frosty mornings until you warm up. I've been using a Patagonia R.5 LS shirt for just that purpose. This is similar to what I wore a few days ago at +15F (too warm, actually) and in a +20F blizzard two weeks ago (perfect). Add the Moonstone vest in camp and you're set. This is a savings of 18 oz. in upper-torso clothing compared to your original list, and IMHO it will keep you just as warm. I agree that trading the Moonstone vest for the Marmot sweater should make this 3-season list into a winter list.


> I'm grinding around on the MH Pack Pants.


Funny, I just added those to my wish list. It gets a bit chilly in Wyoming in just my Lands End nylon convertible pants (13.2 oz).


> I'm thinking about switching the pants out for some light shorts with a liner (about 5oz) and relying on the long johns and Precip rain pants to fill the gap.


That sounds reasonable. On my last two winter trips (see above) I wore only Patagonia Capilene lightweight boxer/briefs and Gore-Tex 3-layer full-zip pants (20.6 oz) for moving, camping and sleeping. Even if your Precip pants aren't 3-layer, you'd still be wearing more than I did. It does depend on your legs' sensitivity to cold, but briefs, shorts and the Precip pants should be sufficient for 3-season. (I've been comfortable in the equivalent in WA September mixed snow and sleet.) Or you could leave the briefs out and just wear the long johns as your base layer. Either way, you would be saving 21/18 oz on lower-body clothing compared to your original list (+ Precip pants). Bring the long johns, of course, but really consider whether you need them before you use them.


I find it interesting that although lots of people expressed interest in an article about hiking in wet/cold weather, nobody else has contributed to this thread. If shoulder-season Western Washington isn't wet/cold, I don't know what is.

Edited by Otter on 03/28/2006 17:23:03 MST.

The MH Pack Pants get into the same bracket as the Marmot DriClime windshirt-- wonderful design and manufacturing, but they don't work into a multi-day UL pallet. I'd use them both for a day hike or simple overnighter in a heartbeat. In those cases, I don't need to cover such a wide range of conditions.

To make you feel bad, I got the MH pants in a thrift store too-- for $12. I wear XL and they were marked medium. The only thing I don't like is that they are black (no longer offered) and too hot if the sun is out. That is only a problem for 12 weeks or so in Washington :)

The cuffs on the MH pants are great-- ankle zippers and toggled drawstrings too, so I can keep them toggled up and out of the mud (I wear a 30" inseam) and still get the convertible features if it warms up or I need to wade. They aren't light and I wouldn't use them in hot climates.

Shorts are one of the #1 buys in thrift stores and I really have them coming out my ears-- Patagonia baggies, Grammicci, Nike ACG, Columbia, REI, Ex Officio, etc, etc, all for $1.99-$3.99 a pair. I found a pair of Nike ACG shorts that are thin nylon with a liner and the pockets all have zippers. I imagine they were originally marketed as river shorts. I really like the zippered front pockets so things don't get lost. Those shorts like the REI Sahara's with the cargo pockets look real Rambo, but they're kind of like an over done Swiss Army knife--- just too much bling. I have a pair of Nike running shorts with a good liner that I'm waiting for a good hot summer day to use-- like a feather and great ventilation. Bright orange too-- you'll see me comin' down the trail :)

Getting back to layering bottoms: once you include light rain pants it seems to me that you have to build from there. The Marmot Precip pants are thin and light and if it is cold and blowing, I don't get clammy with less breathable bottoms. This is mainly camp and rest stop issues, and/or extreme weather. Anyway, having both wind pants and light rain gear doesn't make a lot of sense. If it's cold and wet, a pair of thin long johns underneath is going to help with perspiration managemtent and keep the cold clammy rain gear off my skin. I wouldn't wear long johns together with briefs more for the friction issue than anything else. Also, the fewer layers under a pack belt, the better. From a weight and simplicity standpoint, light shorts with *good* liners, long johns, and rain pants make a good system. The more I look at it, including briefs are only necessary if you have unlined shorts or pants like the MH or TNF convertibles. Many of the Ex Officio models have liners that won't sandpaper your backside. The Columbia shorts I've seen might as well have 80 grit grinding wheels than those mesh liners they use. It's the fat seams on the edges that get you where it hurts. Nike is better and Patagonia the best. My other pet peeve is waist bands. Elastic waists and drawstrings are terrible, IMHO. The waist is where the MH pack pants really excel, with the soft chamois-like lining, smooth seams and a very thin belt with a smooth thin buckle. Any pack shorts should have thin nylon belts so you can keep them from falling off if you have essentials in your pockets. I say that I'm "all gut and no butt" and there's no place to hang my pants so to speak, not to mention parts of my anatomy that are trying to push my pants down rather than hold them up. Hopefully with some more hiking, that problem will ummmm... fade away :)

I have a pair of Campmor expedition weight polyester long johns that I think will work great under rain pants in nastier conditions and are perfect for sleeping in. They are almost fleece, but not quite, very stretchy and about 8oz a pair. Cheap too.