I'm new to the forum but have lurked for some time. I appreciate the knowledge and willingness to share it I've found here.

My query involves selecting a down jacket for winter camping. This jacket will NOT be used for backpacking.

The environment is the high deserts east of the Cascades and above the Columbia River in Central Washington. The camp sites will be served by a vehicle, so other layers and gear will be readily available.

The jacket will be used for keeping warm around camp after a day of activity. Temperatures will ususally be in the teens overnight, and the jacket will need to be a comfortble layer for these conditions. The climate is dry, but since I'll normally be camping on high ridges, wind will be a factor. A campfire may be possible some evenings, but when the wind is up or snow is covering the ground, there won't be the additional heat.

I'd like the jacket to be comfortable to wear in 15 - 25 degree temps with the ability to be serviceable at 0 - 10 degrees. Anything lower than that, and I'll need to have a talk with the local weather forecasters.....

My main order of criteria for selection are as follows:

1. Warmth - The jacket needs to be able to keep me warm at 10 degrees.

2. Compressability - While the jacket won't be used for backpacking, it will be carried on day hiikes to and from camp. It will serve primarily as an insurance policy against an unplanned, broken-ankle-induced, overnight stay away from camp. I just need one that compresses well enough to fit in pack. Question: Does a hood become a necessity due to this back-up duty?

3. Windproofness - As mentioned above, the area I frequent is also frequented by wind. I'll always have a waterproof/breathable shell on hand, but it can get mighty cold when the air temp is 10 degrees and the wind is blowing 40 MPH.

4. Weight - I hesitate to mention weight, because it really is a distant 4th to the three items mentioned above. I only do so to emphasize I want a jacket that will compress well enough to go into a fairly small pack, and not one of those monstrous, apres-ski parkas. To illustrate, my pack will contain about 6 lbs with a 12 oz jacket on board....6 lbs 12 oz with a 24 oz jacket. I can carry the extra 12 oz...it's not a make-or-break deal. Warmth is far more important.

Thanks for all ideas. So far, I've looked at the newer 800-fill Marmot Aba Dablam, Mont Bell Alpine Light Parka, Western Mountaineering Flash Jacket and Feathered Friends Volant Jacket. I'm not sure if I'm barking up the right tree with these pieces, but they all seem viable candidates.

Mark, welcome to the forums. We had a similar thread a while ago, so either look a bit further back in this forum or have a look here where I compiled a list of down jackets. I need the jacket for backpacking, but only to wear it in breaks, at camp and for sleeping. I was looking as well for a good combination of warmth and weight, with a bit of waterproofness/ windproofness and if it compresses tiny I am a happy backpacker. Maybe that list helps you see some new jackets which you haven't considered yet. I myself haven't decided yet, but am between the Rab Neutrino Endurance in Orange, Sir Joseph Koteka Jacket and the Klättermusen Bore.

I'm not exactly familiar with the weather in the region that you describe. But I have friends who live outdoors in the high desert on the slopes of the cascasdes outside of Bend. And I've lived in similar conditions elsewhere.

I'd say that the jackets you are considering are not NEARLY warm enough. Definitely get something with a hood, it hugely adds to the warmth of the jacket. Most everyone I know that lives in conditions like that, prefer fully baffled expedition parkas. The 8000 meter parkas aren't necessary, but one step down in warmth is excellent. Personally, I use the discontinued Marmot Parbat jacket, which i believe is the warmest non-baffled jacket ever made (it's as thick as most of my friends' jackets). I'd look for something with about 4-5 inches of total loft.

If weight isn't a huge concern, a thick jacket is a godsend. Instead of being miserable, and wanting to retire to your sleeping bag, winter camping becomes a joy because you're already wearing your sleeping bag!

Edited by Found on 10/20/2009 11:27:45 MDT.

So i am pretty sure this is going to sound wayyy to light for what you are looking for, but I have been wearing the patagonia down sweater with a marmot precip over it and it cranks some serious heat. Either way, the patagonia down sweater has been treating me really really well and packs down tiny, highly recommended. Get the hood, hoods are the end all be all of serious cold weather outdoors stuff.

Jack - The weather is similar to what the folks down in Bend experience, but usually runs about 5 degrees colder where I'll be. Another 300 miles north, you know....

The WM Flash Jacket, Patagonia Down Sweater, and other similars are basically "fleece-killer" pieces, not stand-alone winter parkas. The WM Flash, for example, uses ~3 oz of down; by comparison, the FF Volant uses ~9oz of down. No question which one you'd rather wear while essentially stationary in cold weather.

I feel that an insulated hood is mandatory in those conditions. The Volant is available with a hood, probably adds ~2-3oz overall to the jacket, I'm guessing. That would take the Volant to 25oz; the Frontpoint is 30 oz, but uses 13 oz of down. I'd prefer the extra down for what you're talking about. I'd also prefer more length in the jacket/parka. Patagonia DAS parka is a consideration, 26oz, but I personally wouldn't find it quite warm enough...

Edit: Just noticed that even Montbell refers to their Alpine Light as midlayer warmth, compares the AL parka to a fleece. Also, the Volant is the only baffled jacket of the ones you mentioned. Baffling certainly isn't necessary, but it does certainly add a noticeable degree of warmth. My big down vest is fully baffled, and it keeps the heat in like nothing I've worn (I have an old Marmot Parbat, too--pretty nice, but the vest is warmer.) Actually, there was one small section (1/4" or less?) of the vest that didn't get filled (where I joined the hood to torso), and I had a distinct cold spot there, nothing but warm everywhere else. Point being, if you can find a baffled parka for what you're talking about you'll stay warmer.

Edited by 4quietwoods on 10/20/2009 13:03:19 MDT.

Yes, I would listen to brad's advice.

Brad, do you think the Volant & Frontpoint are warmer than the DAS?

I'm just curious. I have the DAS, but I often wonder what its down equivalent (or better) might be.

David, I'm going 'round and 'round in my head trying to compare... I don't know how the different jackets would objectively test, necessarily, but...

I do tend to be colder than other people at rest; keep that in mind, and that what I'll say is purely subjective response. I'm not sure what the down equivalent of the DAS would be. I have one; it strikes me as about the same amount of warmth as a typical down sweater (aka flight jacket, not the lighter, thinner ones now more popular). Actually, I have an old Patagonia Inferno jacket, kinda like a shelled Retro-X (I'm guessing like a thick/plush Paramo?) that seems to me to be roughly equivalent warmth to the DAS, though I think the DAS is still warmer. I think the Volant is probably close-ish to the DAS, somewhat warmer in the torso, but wanting for that extra length of the DAS. The Frontpoint is real close in build to my down vest, has about an ounce more down and sleeves. Longer, definitely the warmest. If I were doing a colder winter trip and knew I'd have some down-time, I'd definitely grab a Frontpoint from the closet before the DAS. (I am admittedly a bit of a wuss when it comes to having a big warm parka.) One other consideration with the Volant, it's really sized to wear more as a midlayer, or as an outer, but only over a thin layer... much closer fit than other jackets in similar sizes. I wear a medium in everything, but the Volants I've tried on I wouldn't wear smaller than a large... and I'd probably go with a large in the Frontpoint. Dunno, been a while since I tried them on.

Edited by 4quietwoods on 10/20/2009 13:46:55 MDT.

I recently purchased a hooded Volant in Event and had a chance earlier this month to use it with my Vireo on a trip to Lake of the Woods and Lake Mountain in Washington State’s Pasayten Wilderness. Temperature wise in was in the mid to low twenties at night through the early morning hours and I was toasty warm. I got a late start, not the thing one wants to do on the Monument Creek Trail, arriving at 2:30 AM to Lake Of The Woods the first thing out of my pack and over my soft shell was the Volant, I stayed very warm despite the fatigue.

I’m sure there are a lot of worthy candidates to choose from, I have previously owned a Wild Things Belay Jacket and a Mountain Hardware Sub Zero Jacket, I sold those in favor of what I perceived to be less weight, bulk, greater versatility, and warmth of the Volant.

Brad, if your budget allows consider a Nunatak Skaha Plus, which keeps me warm down to zero. You can customize with Nunatak too, adding/subtracting down depending on how cold prone you are. Patagonia makes great down products; I'd recommend the Down Jacket except that it lacks a hood. Check out Patagonia's website to see what's current.

Thanks for the suggestions, Richard. I've made several down pieces (jackets, vests, sleeping bag) and plan on making something more like a FF Icefall Parka in the near future. The shell of that is much heavier than I anticipate, and I'll probably use a few more ounces of down. Mine should end up around 28 ounces, I think. But not everyone has the option of making their own...

Patagonia, Sierra Designs, Montbell, etc (and they are all excellent garments), this is what I'd put my money on:
FeatheredFriends.com

I had tried on many, many candidates looking for a solution. I must admit that I had fallen for the Feathered Friends Volant Hooded Jacket in eVent and had every intention of purchasing one. Then, another thread mentioned getting two jackets to do the same duty, the reasoning being that you'd get more use out of the two lighter jackets and could double them up for the really cold trips.

Accordingly, today I pulled the trigger on the new Patagonia Fitz Roy Hooded Jacket and backed it up with a Patagonia Down Sweater Jacket. With the 20% discount at backcountry.com, the two jackets cost me about the same as the Volant I was looking at.

While not quite as weatherproof as the eVent fabric, the two jackets should see far more use than the Volant, as much as I love that FF jacket.

Edited by seattlesetters on 10/27/2009 20:13:13 MDT.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/golite_hooded_inferno_jacket_orwm08.html

Mark,

Before making a hasty decision take a look at the table in this thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/18950/index.html

For example, although Montbell may compare the Alpine Light to fleece, Richard Nisley's tests show it roughly equates to three layers of 300 weight fleece. I have one and it certainly is much warmer than any fleece I've worn. However, I don't think it's up to stationary at 0 deg. F, probably more like 10-15 deg.

Also take a look at this thread, which has a table (also by Nisley) estimating insulation required for different activity levels at varying temps:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/9378/index.html

According to the table you'll require approx. 5 clo to sit about at 0 degrees.

Mark-

I have been using the Valandre' Split-S jacket since November 2008.

I use it in temps between 5 - 35 degrees and love it.

The down fill is 4.7 oz and the jacket weighs 15.8 oz.

Last year we went on an overnight snowshoe trip where the temps were down to 5 deg F. As we were boiling water early the next morning and just standing around, I was wearing my Split-S and was quite comfortable in the single digit weather. I prefer to use a base layer of Icebreaker merino wool while wearing this jacket.

It has baffled construction and has a tailored fit to it.

(DISCLAIMER- I am a retailer for Valandre')

I like the idea of two jackets that can be layered for a variety of conditions. I already have a MB Extremely Light Jacket and I was thinking of adding the Alpine Light Parka for layering. That is equivalent to 6.2 oz of down which isn't bad, but I wish they made a Alpine Parka. I like the price/weight/function value of the the Montbell jackets.

Right now I am leaning towards adding the Alpine Light parka to my Extremely Light for extra warmth. According to the chart this has a clo of 1.78 (Extremely Light) + 2.76 (added 10% for the hood on the parka vs. the Alpine Light jacket. For a combined clo of at least 4.54.

Another option would be to get the Alpine jacket and get a down balaclava from Down Works or somewhere for a couple ounces of down around by big noggin. This would have a combined clo of 1.78 (Extremely Light) + 3.77 (Alpine Jacket) + .38 (Down Balaclava estimated by %10 of Alpine Jacket) for 5.93.

Any thoughts to either or similar systems? I would love a garment from Nunatak or Feathered Friends, but I can't argue with the price of a Montbell Alpine Light Parka for ~$135.

Last year snow camping in the Sierras, I wore a OR Fraction parka, (20g less insulation than a MB Thermawrap parka) combined with a MB Alpine light jacket for temps in the mid-teens at night while stationary. I also wore a R1 Hoody. It wasn't quite warm enough, so I added the MB Thermawrap vest I brought along.

This year I have a MB UL Down Inner Parka, and since it's supposed to be twice as warm as the Thermawrap, perhaps I could combine the two for a warm enough jacket.

I'll probably try the layering system to start out, as it's what I have. I didn't fully understand jacket warmth last year when I bought my Alpine Light(which is why I foolishly didn't even get the parka) and I was enamored of the layering system.

However, I've found that I can get by with the UL Down Inner Parka to 40* easily, and below that if I have to by bringing along the Thermawrap vest. I wore that combo in Yosemite last August when overnight lows touched the high-teens. I wasn't toasty, but not uncomfortable either. I was in my sleeping bag long before the lowest temps.

The Alpine light (I realize now) is just too close in range to what I already own, 2oz of fill vs 4oz. It ends up being a single purpose winter jacket, but one that's not quite warm enough for snow camping unless layered with the Down Inner. So why not just own a much warmer single use winter parka like the Permafrost or a Feathered Friends?

Layering could work for you, you just need to figure out when you would be wearing the Alpine Light Parka that it would be too warm for say the Permafrost or Volant, but not warm enough for the Ex light?

Charles,

The specs on the 2010 Split-S are different. None the less, it is an excellent jacket. I am very impressed with Valandre’s full disclosure policy. In this regard, they do the best job in the industry.

Edited by richard295 on 10/28/2009 12:10:42 MDT.