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Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Titanium Potty Trowel for your SUL gear list on 03/12/2006 16:25:29 MST Print View

Titanium Pottery Trowel for your SUL gear list. (This has been hidden in another thread since 07/30/2005.)

I was looking at the mont-bell web site and found what they call a "Handy Scoop" this trowel is SS, weighs 1.4oz and is 6.25" long.

How many SUL backpackers or even Light-backpackers really carry a trowel ??????

I am making a Titanium Trowel more or less the same shape and size as the mont-bell Handy Scoop.

I have the blank cut and ready to shape into a trowel. It will weigh 0.32oz. I should finish it this afternoon.

Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Image hosted by Photobucket.com

I finished my SUL Ti Trowel. It is 0.32oz. I creased the handle and just a little of the spoon area. This makes the Titanium Trowel very ridged and should work well in all but the hardest soil.

The last picture shows what I did use for a trowel before I made the Ti Trowel. The tent stake weighed 1.15oz. Heavy next to the Ti Trowel.

Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
Image hosted by Photobucket.com

================================================================
Jim Colten asks:
Q - 1) what gauge/thickness Ti stock did you use?

A - 1) I use 0.016inch - 6A14V -This is military grade titanium sheet and is extremely strong. It combines a high strength to weight ratio with corrosion and heat resistance. I buy it from Thru-Hiker.com The piece for the Ti Trowel is some scrape from my Ti External Pack Frame.

Thru-Hiker.com Link


Q - 2) What did you use to cut and drill the Ti?

A - 2) I cut the Ti to shape with a pair of WISS Tin Snips. These work really well for Titanium. I Punch my holes with a "Hand Punch". This is also easier than drilling in Titanium. You can drill Ti but where the punch will work it is easier to use. The forming is done by what I call my primitive "'blacksmith" skills. Heat and pound. File and sand, a lot.

You can tell by the picture that it really takes a lot of very sophisticated tools and a large workshop (kitchen table) to to make some of your own gear. Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Edited by bfornshell on 09/16/2006 10:32:32 MDT.

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Trowel on 03/12/2006 17:37:55 MST Print View

Hey Bill-
That's a great design! We have the same Whitney knock-off punch. Does it punch through titanium easily? I've found that it's great for aluminum but with steel, it leaves a hole with a tag. I was just wondering if it does the same with titanium.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Titanium Pottery Trowel on 03/12/2006 18:37:54 MST Print View

Hi Jason,

I just copied the Montbell trowel. I called them one night to buy one and they were out of stock. I looked in my Ti scrape box and found the piece in the picture. Just made one like MontBells. Mine is a lot lighter.

The Punch works great on my Titanium but remember it is only .016" thick. I use the punch all the time with aluminum and the Ti. Never tried it with steel. Titanium is hard to drill so I use the punch to make bigger holes by punching lots of smaller holes. Then I file out what ever is left over. I file and sand the Titanium items a lot to get rid of the sharpe edges.

Edited by bfornshell on 01/08/2007 04:52:48 MST.

Tim Cheek
(hikerfan4sure) - MLife
Re: Titanium Pottery Trowel on 03/12/2006 19:06:37 MST Print View

Bill, would your trowel double as a stake?

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Re: Titanium Pottery Trowel on 03/12/2006 19:42:52 MST Print View

I've never worked with titanium. I'm looking for a source now. I think the only reason my punch left burrs in the steel is because it's an el cheapo and not as well machined as the realy Whitney punch. I've noticed it's already loosend up since I bought it.

P.S. Have you ever tried to make stakes out of that titanium?

Edited by jasonklass on 03/12/2006 19:43:52 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ti Pottery Trowel/Tent-Tarp Stake-Yes on 03/12/2006 20:48:49 MST Print View

Hi Tim-Jason, I just pounded my Ti Trowel 4" into my very dry South Texas backyard. Yes, the trowel could be used as a tarp/tent stake.


Jay Ham
(jham) - F - M

Locale: Southwest
titanium stakes on 03/13/2006 05:37:16 MST Print View

I've made these; just your every day skewer stakes out of titanium rod. Not a hard project, but takes lots-o-muscle to get the bends right. I cut mine witth a dremel and cut off wheel. Made the points with a dremel sanding wheel. And I made the bends using a couple of box wrenches, channel locks, and a vise.

Jay
MYOG

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Titanium stakes on 03/13/2006 08:00:32 MST Print View

Jason,
If you can find titanium rod in a useful thickness, titanium stakes are an easy project. As Jay Hamm says, 'all you need is a dremmel tool and muscle.'

The problem is finding the right gauge. BPL's tit rod (1/16") is too small and the 1/8" rod from from Online Metals is too thick. What you need is about 3/32" or about 0.0935 - which is about coat-hanger size. If you find any that size, let me know.

BTW, coathangers make superior tent stakes if bent into a 'U' with unequal legs. I make them with 7" and 5" legs and they weigh the same as my 9" titanium stakes. The 'U' stakes have more useful length than the usual titanium 'crooked-neck' design, and they have more holding power in questionable soil. They are still easy to insert by hand. Titanium is both stiffer and lighter than the cheap, low carbon steel of coat hangers, and would be ideal for 'U' stakes in the right gauge.

I have tried using BPL's 1/16" rod for 'U' stakes, and find it to be right at the ragged edge of practicality. Too thin. I have gone back to the coathanger stakes.

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Re: Ti Pottery Trowel/Tent-Tarp Stake-Yes on 03/17/2006 18:47:04 MST Print View

Hi Bill-
Well, I cut out my blank from the titanium sheet for my trowel. A couple of questions-
1. I can't get my Whitney punch to go through the titanium. Man, that's tough stuff! You mentioned above that you punch a small hole and file it. Have you tried drilling it? I have a friend that has a drill press so I'm thinking that might be better than risking damaging my metal punch.

2. Is a blow torch necessary to bend the metal? I first tried to contour the sheet (before cutting the blank) but founf that titanium is a lot more springy than I thought. Is there any other "low tech" way to bend the metal to shape? Do you use anything to form the shape around?

Thanks for sharing such a great idea. I'm sure my trowel will come out looking like crap (which I suppose is appropriate!) but at least it will be lighter than my Mont Bell.

Edited by jasonklass on 03/17/2006 19:02:32 MST.


(Anonymous)
Performance of Trowel on 04/06/2006 20:18:05 MDT Print View

This is a good idea. How well does the Titanium trowel perform vs the ole orange conventional trowel? Can it get down 6"?

Just curious too about how well one of those blizzard stake perform.

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Inspiration on 04/08/2006 18:48:18 MDT Print View

Bill, I want to thank you so much for posting this idea. It inspired me to make my own. Here are the results:

http://www.freewebs.com/jasonklass/titaniumtrowel.htm

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Titanium Potty Trowel on 04/08/2006 20:36:40 MDT Print View

Jason,
You did a real nice job on your trowel


The titanium does take a little time to finish up but I think the weight savings is worth it. We also are not really talking about that muct time.

I use the metal edge of an old band saw table to get a sharper angle on my Ti. I go for a 90 degree angle and clamp the flat sheet over the edge of the metal table top of the old band saw. I got the band saw free when the person who owned it burned up the motor. It was cheaper to buy a new band saw than to replace the motor.

My Harbor Freight punch works well punching holes in my Thru-Hiker Titanium. Drilling is not easy with the Titanium.

Cutting the Ti with the tin snips should get easier the more you do it. I can get real close to my line most of the time and that has reduced the time I spent filing. None of it is fast however.

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Trowel on 04/08/2006 21:19:47 MDT Print View

Thanks again Bill. So you made more of a "V" shape in yours rather than a rounded shape? Do you think that increases the rigidity? I can torque mine if I wiggle it from side to side but I can't bend it against the curve (which is where most of the pressure would be applied anyway when digging). Can you torque yours at all?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Titanium Potty Trowel on 04/08/2006 21:45:30 MDT Print View

Hi Jason,
Yes, I have a deeper "V" shape. This makes it more ridge and very strong. I can flex it a little. I could bend it at the "V" if I tried hard enough but in normal use I don't think so. If the ground was that hard I would have to find a softer spot.

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Re: Titanium Potty Trowel on 04/08/2006 22:17:20 MDT Print View

Ahh, thanks for confirming that. I've gotten some comments from people that it wouldn't be able to cut through roots and that seemed a little contradictory to the whole LNT philosophy anyway. I think it will be fine for the type of ground I face here in most of Colorado. Again, thanks for your idea. While I'm not a big fan of working with titanium, I'm just curious; any new projects in the works? Spoon? Stakes? Etc.?

Edited by jasonklass on 04/08/2006 22:17:56 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Titanium Potty Trowel and stuff on 04/08/2006 23:22:50 MDT Print View

Hi Jason
Have you ever seen my long handle Ti Spoon?
Or my Ti / Carbon Fiber External Frame?

These are hiding here somewhere. There is also a lot of other really good stuff from others hiding on past threads. All the questions being asked about beer can pots and lip gaurds have been answered before. That is the good news, the bad news is that unless you look at all or most of the old threads they are about impossible to find.

Then there is a lot of other good stuff that gets posted in the "off topic" sort of category. That is also really hard to find later as it is hard to remember what thread it was posted with.

I just got a new piece of Ti that is 14" by 22" and most of it might go into my new pack frame unless I decide to use sheet Carbon Fiber. The Carbon Fiber sheet is much lighter but it is a new material for me to work with.

Anyway new stuff out of Titanium:
-Snow anchors
-New Wood Stove
-Other stove parts
-Parts for my new pack

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Titanium stuff on 04/09/2006 00:23:05 MDT Print View

Bill-
I think I've seen the pack frame and long-handled spoon but not the other stuff. Lemme see, lemme see! Do you see what you've reduced me to? Now I'm a titanium junkie all thanks to you. Anyway, I'd like to see pics of the other stuff; especially the snow stakes.

P.S. are you able to edit the title of your original thread from "pottery trowel" to "potty trowel"? That would make it easier for future generations to search.

Edited by jasonklass on 04/09/2006 00:27:04 MDT.

Curtis Ware
(ware_curtis) - MLife

Locale: Midwest
Trowel Pattern on 10/11/2006 15:02:11 MDT Print View

Can you scan the trowel pattern and post it?

I have access to Titanium and would like to make one without having to buy a Montbell trowel first.

Thanks

Can't wait to hear about your sub 2lb trip

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/11/2006 15:42:24 MDT Print View

I bought a Montbell Handy Scoop a year or so ago and have been very happy with it. At 1.4 oz, it is the lightest and most durable commercial trowel I know of. I always wished they had made it out of titanium rather than stainless steel. I asked at the Montbell store in Boulder if they were aware of any plans to do just that, and they did not know of any. A little while later Bill started this thread. Thanks Bill, for the inspiration! Here is my attempt to do the same.

I ordered a 5.5" x 7.5" sheet of 0.016 inch 6Al4V titanium from Thru-Hiker. If you call Ayce he can provide just about any size you need as long as it's a multiple of the size shown on the website. Talking with Ayce was a pleasure and quite helpful.

I cut a piece of titanium 2" x 7.5" using tin snips. Both Bill and Ayce recommend this and it was surprisingly easy to do.

Bill talked about the difficulty of bending the titanium and having to use a torch and hammer. As a result, I used a different approach that I think worked very well. I used hose clamps to bend the titanium around a piece of pipe. The picture below shows my first attempt at this using a 1" piece of steel pipe and a torch. This worked fine but the torch did not heat the titanium evenly and left marks. On my final try I used a piece of half inch PVC pipe and no torch, and this worked great. The curve was the same as the curve in the Montbell trowel. This approach does have two drawbacks; the cost of the clamps and the edge of the titanium is left a little scalloped in the process.

Bending titanium around a pipe using hose clamps.

The next picture shows the trowel/snow stake that resulted after cutting the curved titanium with tin snips and working the edges with a file and some sand paper. The holes were easily drilled with a cobalt bit. You can see the scalloping of the edges in this picture.
Snow stake/trowel

The final picture shows four objects from left to right. A piece of sand paper glued to a piece of PVC that was helpful in finishing the curved edges of the trowel. The Montbell Handy Scoop. A piece of engineering paper that was used as a guide. The finished titanium trowel.

Trowels etc.

The snow stake/trowel weighs 20 grams (0.7 oz). The trowel weighs 10 grams (0.35 oz). I will probably carry the trowel because it weighs less and is still useful as a stake. The curved titanium is just strong enough for its purpose. I would not use weaker or thinner titanium or bend it less than I did. I also made the handle on my trowel wider than the handle on the Handy Scoop because it fits my hand well and is stronger. Thanks again to all the previous posters.

Edited by ericnoble on 10/11/2006 16:25:06 MDT.

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Re: titanium trowel / shovel on 10/11/2006 18:09:58 MDT Print View

A Ti "large grain shovel, handle not included" is for sale for $39.95 at www.materials.com. Does anyone know how to build, buy or steal a handle that would go with the blade?

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/13/2006 18:07:02 MDT Print View

Eric,
That's a great idea for bending the titanium! I wish I had thought of that before I made mine! Seems like it made a perfectly uniform bend.

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/13/2006 18:43:28 MDT Print View

Thanks Jason, I really appreciate that. I owe a lot to you and Bill for leading the way! The bend is as good as the bend in the Montbell trowel. I feel very fortunate that my first titanium project turn out so well. I almost hate to use the trowel :).

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/13/2006 20:41:05 MDT Print View

I know what you mean. But, If you don't use it, all of that work will be for naught! Remember, you can always make another one, right?

Jason Klass
(jasonklass) - F

Locale: Parker, CO
Change the Subject on 10/13/2006 20:43:13 MDT Print View

BTW, can someone change the topic header so it says, "potty" instead of "pottery"?

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ti Potty Trowel on 10/13/2006 21:35:04 MDT Print View

On the hike I just finished along the AT in Georgia I used my Ti-Trowel each day except when we went near a Shelter with a privy.

The Georgia AT Club gets a 5 for 5 for making the best Bear cable system I have seen at each of their Shelters.

James Yancey
(jyancey) - F

Locale: Missouri
Another titanium source on 10/13/2006 21:44:46 MDT Print View

Various titanium materials are available from Titanium Joe http://www.titaniumjoe.com/ I don't know how this compares $$-wise to Thruhiker, but TJ has a huge variety, including sheet, tube and rod Ti.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
TiJoe on 10/15/2006 20:47:45 MDT Print View

Nice link, very good prices.

Thanks!

Kevin Camden
(kcamdenesq) - F
Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/19/2006 14:25:43 MDT Print View

You interested in making any more of your invention for sale? I figure it's easier to buy one from you than screw several ti blanks up on my own!

R Alsborg
(FastWalker) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Re: Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/19/2006 17:13:43 MDT Print View

Eric,

Should you decide to build some more Ti Trowels to sale I'd like to be one of your customers as well.

Regards

roger_alsborg at hotmail.com

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/21/2006 20:46:06 MDT Print View

Kevin and Roger,
Sorry it took me so long to reply. Your offers took me by surprise and I had to think about it. I wish I was efficient enough at making them to make this possible. My finished trowel looks professional but it took a lot of time with a file and sand paper. I am tempted to talk to someone with a proper shop and see what it might cost to have a bunch made.

R Alsborg
(FastWalker) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium Trowel on 10/21/2006 20:57:13 MDT Print View

Eric,

Keep us posted.

Thanks

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
Re: Titanium Potty Trowel for your SUL gear list on 11/03/2006 12:50:31 MST Print View

83 square inches of 0.016" 6A14V Titanium = $37.05
60 Hose Clamps = $83.21
1 Harbor Freight sheet metal punch = $19.73
36" AirCore Pro Dyneema cord = $1.44
18 hours of knuckle busting = $216.00
6 Custom Made ultralight Titanium (Potty Trowel) Mulit-tools = Priceless

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: Titanium Potty Trowel for your SUL gear list on 11/03/2006 13:28:12 MST Print View

Denis, that's funny...but sadly not far off. The cobalt drill bit I used instead of the sheet metal punch, cost about $3, but you have to add $1 in band aids. That thin titanium is mighty sharp before it's sanded.

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Ti Potty Trowel on 11/03/2006 23:00:02 MST Print View

"On the hike I just finished along the AT in Georgia I used my Ti-Trowel each day except when we went near a Shelter with a privy. "

Bill, how has your trowel held up? Any unwanted bending or other wear and tear? I still haven't really tried mine. I need to get over it and just dig a hole in the back yard.

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
Titanium Potty Trowel on 11/08/2006 21:11:45 MST Print View

Eric,
Did you end up destroying the hose clamps. For the first trowel I started with 12 clamps. 2 of them didn't work beyond a few turns. Three of the remaining 10 needed alot of lubricant to get them tightened all the way. All of them self (myself providing the torque) destructed while removing them. I've been talking to various metalworkers about the problem. One suggested a press made of half inch steel pipe, pressing into half of a larger diameter steel pipe, all clamped in a vice. I don't think that would make the required curve. It migh get a "leg up" on the worst of the bending. One would still need to use the hose clamps to finish off the bend.

Any ideas? Have you made any more? I've got stock for 5 more that I'd like to give as Christmas presents. I'd like to make it less of a pain in the knuckles.

Thanks,

Denis

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ti Potty Trowel on 11/08/2006 21:35:40 MST Print View

The way I made my Ti Trowel seems to be a much easier way than this clamp method.

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
Titanium Potty Trowel on 11/08/2006 21:44:37 MST Print View

Bill,
You may be right. If I try your method I'll need to find a bandsaw table substitute. How much heat did you need to get the stuff to form easily?

Denis

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ti Potty Trowel on 11/08/2006 21:55:36 MST Print View

Go back to the first part of this thread and look at the picture of the tools I use. I cut the Ti with Wiss Tin Snips.

I just go to "red" heat on the Ti, pound a little, re-heat and so on till it looks like I want it to. Don't forget to put a grove in the handle.

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Titanium Potty Trowel on 11/08/2006 23:21:18 MST Print View

Denis,
I made two trowels with the same set of clamps. I got a little over zealous the last time and destroyed 2 of the clamps by over tightening them. I didn't need to lubricate them. I bought the clamps in the plumbing department of Home Depot. They were with the sprinkling system parts. I guess I got lucky and bought good clamps. I bought the first ones I found.

Another option is a brake (press) sold by Veritas that fits in a bench vise that will bend corners. This should achieve the same effect as the edge of Bill's band saw table. I have not used this however. I thought about making a press like your metal worker suggested. I also thought about making a press out of a U shaped channel and a piece of pipe. The bend would happen around the pipe rather than being pushed into a half pipe. Making bad bends less likely.

I'm sorry this hasn't gone well for you. The bending turned out to be the easy part for me. Cutting the inside curves, and filing and sanding is what I found difficult. Feel free to bounce any other ideas off of me.

Edited by ericnoble on 11/08/2006 23:25:37 MST.

Red Dallagio
(reddallagio) - F

Locale: Central Florida
An alternative solution on 05/27/2008 20:46:56 MDT Print View

I found this discussion via google while looking for a titanium trowel to buy. Reading the comment about bending the titanium gave me an idea: why not make one out of PVC. I opened TurboCAD, drew a quick surfboard shape pattern, printed it and cut out the template. taped it to a piece of 1.5 in thin wall PVC and cut it out with the band saw. 15 min and i got a nice rigid scoop 7.25" long and 1.75" wide. It weighs in at 5/8 oz. (with the string!)

PVC Trowel

Michael Davis
(mad777) - F

Locale: South Florida
Re: An alternative solution on 05/28/2008 04:43:10 MDT Print View

Gee whiz, Red! Your making this way to easy. Now anyone can make a potty trowel without access to a machine shop! You've taken all the mistique out of it :)

Seriously, brilliantly simple idea!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
pvc trowel on 08/22/2009 12:25:03 MDT Print View

I couldn't pass up Red's idea, very easy to make (dremel is handy for finishing) and the price is right :)

mine weighs in @ 0.75 oz

Photobucket

it's pretty sturdy for it's assigned duty and recently got to double duty (I accidently left out one stake)

Photobucket

Robert Taylor
(Robtay) - F
Looks Good on 08/22/2009 12:34:30 MDT Print View

thats 34grams lighter than my bright orange plastic trowel!