After making a pillow out of the same 30D air tight nylon I decided to make a full sized sleeping pad. I am rather tall so the pad is 78x20x2.5". Anyway the pad weighs only 11.4oz and packs down to 4.25" by 3.75". In the picture it was packed slightly different so its bigger lengthwise. Knowing how to fold and roll the pad really helps pack size.





Construction: the pad was made of a single piece of fabric folded over like a taco shell. Folding the fabric met I only had 3 seams to seal instead of 4. I then taped the fabric along the edges to keep the rectangular shape. I carefully marked out 8 equally spaced air chambers with a Sharpy and a yardstick. I left about 2 inches at the head and foot of the pad so air can flow between all 8 chambers. Wit my iron I sealed the outer edges, but left one corner unsealed for the valve. To make the air chambers I was able to put the iron on its side to get a 1/8" wide seam. The valve I used was a Thermarest replacement not made to be used by itself. What I did was seal the corner to the exact size of the replacement valve. I was able to get a tight enough fit so the valve could be pushed in with no glue whatsoever. The seal is so good I was able to sleep on it last night with almost zero air loss! I do plan on using a dab of JB Weld but I didn't have any on hand.

If you want to make your own here are some things you should know. Construction was a tedious job so need to be patient. It took me about 2 hours to make the pad after I did all my testing with iron settings and timing. The ideal setting for my iron was right in the middle of Linen/Cloth. The iron does not slide so you can only seal a few inches at a time. I found that holding the iron in place for 20 seconds worked the best. You absolutely need to test some scrap material before starting a project like this. If you don't have enough heat/time the fabric peals appart like nothing. If you overheat the fabric the seam will fail because the coating delaminates from the nylon. If you have everything set perfectly the bond is absolutely incredible. I was literally not able to pull apart 1" squares bonded together. It was a Eureka moment when this happened and I think all the planets must have been aligned as well. The only source for this material I could find is Seattle Fabrics. It is not cheap at $16 a linear yard and you will need about 2 yards for a pad like this. Shipping was about $12 which seems a bit high less than a pound in a UPS bubble envelope. I would recommend getting more fabric so you can start off by making something easy like a pillow. The valve is available at most camping stores for $8 or less.

Edited by Bender on 10/09/2009 14:15:29 MDT.

Nice, I really like this. How much did all the materials cost ( minus the iron)? And how long did everything take to make this?

Bender,

That is one sweet pad!

Now the question is........

How much to make one for me? :)

Awesome job! Now, you just have to put some down in the tubes. :)

Todd I'm going to keep testing this one for a while. If all goes well I may make some more! I have some ideas that would greatly speed up the process but it would require getting a Mono Kote iron and modifying it. I wish I could find the material less than $16 a yard and stupid high shipping.

Steve I actually was thinking the same thing. If my calculations are correct I could make a 72" 800 fill power down version that weighs 14 oz! I know down isn't good with moisture but it may have a slow self inflating affect.

Just an idea on the seam sealing, probably not worth it just for one mattress, but... In a book on making geodesic domes I read about someone grinding the side of a big soldering iron flat, drilling a hole and bolting on a ball bearing. The bearing got hot enough when the iron was heated to heat-seal polyethelene sheeting - easier to control the speed since it rolled rather than having to slide.

Paul thanks for the tip. I have actually been on some of the hobby forums and found a similar idea. They were sealing material for blimps. The one I liked was just an adjustable soldering iron with a wheel instead of a soldering tip.

Just a tip on the insulated ones - if you look at the insulated BA air cores, they use synthetic insulation. and the insulated model is only 2 oz over the regular. so the down may not be worth it.

Kieran your right the BA insulated pad is only 2oz more but there is one small catch. The insulated pad uses 50D ripstop and the uninsulated version is 70D. That's not a bad thing, I just can't do the same trick. I would estimate they are using 5-6 oz of synthetic insulation. Anyway if I stuffed one of mine with down it would still end up being 10 oz less than the BA insulated. Now who wants to send me some 800+ goose down, preferably detached from the geese!


I used a tiny amount of JB weld so the valve can't be pulled out. The JB weld actually helped get the valve completely pushed in flush. I am actually amazed at how well the valve area turned out. I was expecting this to be this designs weakness but I no longer think so.

Edited by Bender on 10/09/2009 23:37:05 MDT.

sneaky devils! oh well... so when does an insulated version go on sale? :)

using 2.5oz XP would add 3.125oz. It would be easy to make and more resistant to any moisture trapped in the tubes. If you don't i think i'm gonna have to try making one like that.

Also, i have a lot of down, how much do you need? email on the down please tmarshall charterinternet com

-Tim

Tim check your email. Is the XP insulation in sheet form?

Here is my pad next to a BA Air Core which is 2x the weight and packed size!

yes Xp comes in sheets from thru-hiker.com

60"xnum yds ordered.

-Tim

Tim,
If you use XP and insert strips after the mat is welded, how do you keep them from twisting to vertical in the tube, and creating 2 uninsulated channels?

good questions, i haven't even though about it at all. However XP melts easily at low temps so i would guess that where the pad was heat sealed the xp would seal in there 2, maybe i'm way off though. I was thinking of putting the xp in before sealing.

Maybe i'll have to get some 30 heat seal able nylon and just try it out.

-Tim

Tim,
What R Value do you get from a single layer of XP?

I assume the additional air spaces would contribute, and would be a 'plus something' in the down the road guestimations.

Thanks.

don't know the r-value, but is it safe to guess that it would insulate equally as well above or bellow the sleeper? (if uncompressed)

If so then 2.5oz XP to 45*, 3.7oz COMBAT 35*, 5ozXP 25*, 7.4ozCOMBAT 15*.

Should be warmer in the pad than in the quilt as the air is trapped and can't escape resisting change in temperature longer right?

-Tim

I like where this is headed!

I've heard some say that making one layer a solar blanket, so long as it isn't directly touching you, is a great thing to have in your padding "sandwich" - so maybe layer one of those in also?

VERY cool! What width does the fabric come in? I'm interested in making a wide pad - 25", or even 30".

How does the fabric feel as far as durability? As strong as the BA material? More fragile? Similar?

Really interested where this one goes. Thanks for sharing!

Curt

I wouldn't go as far as to say the material is as tough as the BA but I do think it will be tough enough for most people. The material comes 56" wide so you could easily make a pad but not the same way I did. Instead of folding the fabric you could have a top and bottom piece but you will waste a bit of material. If you want to waste the least fabric you can fold the fabric and just make the tubes horizontal instead of vertical. This would give you a pad over 25" wide when inflated. You would need roughly 3.25 linear yards to get a 72" pad with horizontal 2.5" tubes. FYI the material is 91.5g per square yard so that pad would be about a pound with valve.

Now what would you all think if I told you I had a working prototype electric air pump capable of filling a standard sized sleeping pad in 20-30 seconds? What if it weighed less than an ounce and was good for 10-20 inflations per charge? Hummmmm, that would be nice! I'm still working on it so don't expect pictures anytime soon.

I was thinking about integrating this with a down insulated version of my sleeping pad. The current 78" pad is now 11.3 oz because I trimmed the excess material around the edges this weekend. Were talking 14-15 oz total for a 72" down filled sleeping pad with a very nice built in pump! This totally solves the manual inflation problems with moisture and down. Do guys think a pump is worth an ounce?

The lightest pump that I know of for that purpose is the Big Agnes Pumphouse, 1.5 oz.
Maybe a simpler way to do it ? (stuff sack/pump combo)
http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Accessory/Pumphouse
Franco

yeah i would think a pump would be worth it only on the down version because of the condensation issues. I would imagine after a week long trip that down could get fairly soggy.

"Do guys think a pump is worth an ounce?"

Absolutely.

An even bigger plus is the time reduction. A Stephenson DAM "stuff sack inflator" takes about 15 fills to get a DAM up to snuff, requiring a fair amount of time and patience - Something I'm often short of in the dark and cold.

I'll be waiting.

Here is a pillow I made for Denis Hazlewood. The dimensions before inflated ended up at 14.5" by 12.5" with some nicely rounded corners. Weight is 29g or 30g as pictured with string. Rolled up its about the same size as a film canister. I am very pleased with the pillow, especially how nicely the valve area turned out.

The valve placement on the pillow looks alot cleaner then the pad...I was actually going to make a mating piece to fit the valve to the material, but yours is obviously a better idea. :)

Nice work again...

Thanks to all the creative members here @ BPL,my pack just keeps getting lighter. And my nights sleep just keeps getting more comfortable.

Denis you always get the cool stuff! Way to go! Jack

But, though I fly low and slow, I get to camp with the BPL Eagles.

Great work Bender. Thanks again.

Could you bond the synthetic insulation to the bottom piece of 30d with some sort of adhesive prior to adding the top piece of fabric, and then forgo sealing in the tubes, to create something similar to a Thermarest (albeit much lighter)?

What's the puncture resistance of the 30d? I use a Thermarest, and it's resisted punctures for several years now, even though on a number of occasions I've found thorns (think "roses") coming up through the floor of my tent.

Mark assuming that would work, using 1.2" loft XP would weigh the same as a down version because it uses less fabric. Using the .6" loft XP the pad would be about 10.5-11oz for 72x20". Now to find an incredibly flexible adhesive to put it all together!

if you try XP without tubes you could use the iron to heat seal the XP to one side, assuming it doesn't melt, not sure if it would or not. Or you could put the xp in and seal the edges then just run the iron a bit over the top and bottom to heat up the glue so the XP doesn't shift.

-Tim

Tim just from playing around with the material I don't think I'll be able to seal the insulation like that. I have already tried sticking other materials to the seal side of the nylon with no success. I wanted use no-see-um mesh as baffles but it doesn't want to stick at all. Now I wonder if 15d sylnylon would stick for baffles.

I have an awesome impulse sealer on the way!

bummer.

-Tim

What about hot glue to join the XP to the fabric? Maybe just in 4 or 6 spots? Hot glue is flexible, and I would imagine you could push the XP down into a blob of it to secure it. Or, maybe you could apply the blob through the XP by pushing the tip down into the XP and onto the fabric. If hot glue won't stick to the heat sealable side well, maybe you could add small round patches of sealable, so you're working with the non-sealable side for the hot glue spots...? Or, maybe you could heat seal thin strips of the sealable stuff in 4-6 places on the bottom fabric, poke those through the insulation, and heat seal them to the top piece, so that the insulation is secured in several spots...?

I don't know anything about the fabric or the insulation, so just tossing out ideas. I am really interested in this thread because I'd like to see an insulated air mattress that is as comfortable as my big fat Thermarest, but at maybe 1/4 the weight. 10-11 oz. for an insulated, 1.2" thick air mat sounds great. Or, even better, a 2.4" pad for ~ 1 lb.

I think I misread your weight figures. It looks like a 2.4" (two layers of 5 oz. XP) pad would be closer to 20 oz.? Even so, I'd be interested to see what you find, in terms of what's possible.

How about Aquaseal by McNett that another person reported good results with on his homemade cuben tent?

Mark 2.4" of XP insulation would be about 19-20oz (72x20).

Michael the Aquaseal sounds promising but there are some other options I can try that are more readily available. I will probably try UHU Por thinned out and brushed on.

I just received dark blue and black 50D material today. I have another source for 50D still on its way so fingers crossed! I like the idea of a full 72" mummy pad at 8.6oz! A 60" pad I would have to calculate but it is getting down to nothing. I also have nearly a kilo of 750+ FP down ready to go hehe! Down will add about 3.5oz for 72" and even less for mummy style.

Here are my estimates for each pad.

Square 72x20x2.5"
White 10.4 oz
Blue 14.7 oz
Black 21.8 oz

Same but mummy style
White 8.6 oz
Blue 12.1 oz
Black 18.0 oz

Edited by Bender on 10/16/2009 19:27:42 MDT.

I received my sealer today and as you can see it is working exceedingly well. This pillow has internal baffles for stability. The baffles are spaced just right to cradle your head. The pillow is shown fully inflated but it is much more comfortable with just a little less air. Weight is 1.3 oz and it rolls up ridiculously small. The final version will likely weigh a fuzz less due to rounded corners. Dimensions are 3.5" by 7.5" by 12" when fully inflated. Now who else besides me would get so excited over a pillow :)

Dang, that thing looks beautiful! Seriously, it looks like you bought it from a store - what kind of sealer did you use?

Bender,
How much do you estimate it would weigh if constructed of the white material? Are the baffles sealed tubes, like the mattress? If so, might my pillow be modified with one centered "baffle"?

Edited by redleader on 10/21/2009 12:06:44 MDT.

Looks great to me, I'd buy one. Can I?

Denis the pillow uses I beam construction so there are no tubes like the sleeping pad. With the white material it would weigh roughly 1 ounce but it is slightly smaller than the one I made for you. Check your PM :)

Steven the sealer is a Harwil bar sealer. They are not cheap but it's the perfect tool for the job. Well anyway it's the perfect tool now. I have modified it already.

So...when are you going to start selling these?

I'd get in line for one of these....

I'd buy one as well. This looks like a winner.

I could be persuaded to purchase one aswell...but can we make them just a tad smaller? Just so they're under 1oz? Yes, I'm that crazy. :)

I want mine the size in the picture. Although.....it would be cool to have one that fit in the hood of a mummy bag.

I will start officially selling the blue pillows within a week or two.

As for a lighter version yes it is possible but it would be made to order. I have enough of the lighter material left to make just 1 pillow. I have the remainder of the material on order so that may be the end of the white stuff. I am searching for a new source.

Joe I don't know about your mummy bag but the pillow fits mine just fine. Rounding the corners helps I just don't have it shown in the last picture.

Edited by Bender on 10/19/2009 22:52:03 MDT.

Has any one ever tried putting a survival blanket strip in a air mat like this one?
I think it would reflect and hold heat very well; maybe even shredded Mylar would work. it can surely put up with moisture and pack down well...
Well what do you all think?

Oh ya its cheap too.

I'm sure the one in your pic with rounded corners would be fine.

I'd be seriously interested in both products.

I don't get quite as good of a nights sleep on the single chamber pillows as I do with a dual chamber pillow but... the pillows that inflate with a straw are so light I don't complain. Yours on the other hand - now that's nice!

"I will start officially selling the blue pillows within a week or two."

Are you allowed to post the information in this thread? Or at least let us know about the for sale thread here? I'm watching this thread and don't want to miss out! :-)

Larry we do have a gear swap forum here but I will also be working on setting up a website. Right now I'm still collecting equipment and the necessary materials.

Bender,

I would also be interested in your pad and pillow.

One question however, can you have a bit of additional fabric at the corners of the pad and pillow so they can be toggled together, like the Montbell pads and pillows?

Great idea Case

I can leave room in the corners to attach loops of cord. I just need to get a hole punch now.

Bender,

Please consider an "Extra Thick Version", plus toggles, for use with the Neoair short. My Montbell pillow requires and extra 2 1/2" under it to raise it to the proper height.

+1 on the extra thick version
+1 on tie holes in the corners

I just got a hole punch, valves and some very interesting material for internal baffles. The material is 52g a square yard and looks like it stick just fine. I'm in the process of testing it.

additional material? extra thick? toggles? That sounds like extra weight. ;)

Haven't even started selling them yet and already suffering from feature creep. sad:)

-Tim

Features like holes in the corners is for weight savings of course ;)

Corner Tie-holes are very important so that if you have a Montbell sleeping pad (which have toggles at the corners), you can attach the pillow securely to the top of the Montbell Sleeping pad, to either be on top or above the sleeping pad. It is 1,000 times better having that pillow stay secure in place than otherwise. I have given up on Thermarest pads because they lack these corner toggles. I prefer the Montbell 5 foot long sleeping pad (at 16 oz) versus the 11 oz NeoAir pad (without toggles). I have a Montbell pillow which is about 2.4 oz and it has the corner tie holes. The proposed pillow, if it is the same size as the Montbell pillow, with tie-holes will save me an ounce and I'd be interested in it, provided it holds up as well as the Montbell pillow. The fabric in the Montbell pillow feels nice to the skin and I don't need a cover. I hope the inventor buys a Montbell pillow to compare his fabric feel and corner holes and size to that of the Montbell pillow.

Check it out! You may notice the baffles are slightly closer together. This helps stabilize and cradle your head even better. I don't use tie downs but they are no problem to add. Again weight is coming in at 1.3 ounces.

Edited by Bender on 10/20/2009 15:13:46 MDT.

WOW. I think I'm in love ;)

Yeah right! Like a typical gear head, love for the nine hundred and thirty second time!

Even though it saves weight, I don't think you need holes and grommets on the side with the valve. And wouldn't the pillow need to be 20" to match up with the pad?

Edited by skinewmexico on 10/20/2009 15:32:53 MDT.

Man, these look sweet! I'm ready to get 2! Can't wait for you to release them.

George is watching you :)

Looks great. Good work.

Do you think it really needs the type of valve you have? Not that its not a very fine valve or anything ;)

What about a "soft valve" that is basically a tail of material that you clamp with a small clip after rolling it a little. Sort of like a waterproof stuff sack.

Or, what about using a small section of flexible tubing and a simple friction fit stopper?

Or, maybe use a very small pill bottle or other plastic bottle with a screw top. Cut the bottom off and glue in like you are already doing.

Or, hit the toy store and find a small rubber blow up toy with a high quality push plug nipple and glue it in a hole from behind....

I have been trying without any luck to find a nice valve like this in bulk pricing. I like some of your ideas so I may play around. The current valve is 5.2g. I may be able to cut that a bit but only if it is totally reliable. I have found that rolling a corner does not provide a perfect seal.

Edited by Bender on 10/20/2009 21:34:03 MDT.

OK, Bender, first off, great work - this is turning into a nice product. Now, what about those of us who are crazy and want it even lighter? I'm just throwing this out there...what about a triangle to save the weight of the top 2 corners which will not be used. Then the valve located right at the top...it would look almost like the top section of a mummy pad.

Something like this (program isn't really designed to model pillows, but you get the idea right..). You can add your toggle holes on the bottom 2 corners.

Edited by Steve_Evans on 10/21/2009 10:57:54 MDT.

Here is a mini version that style at 16.6g and 5.2g of that is the valve. Dimensions are 2.7" thick and 8.5" wide. From the dimensions it doesn't sound that small but trust me it is. I skipped the tie downs on this one.

Edited by Bender on 10/21/2009 12:43:17 MDT.

Erm, so when do these go on sale??? I want one!!! ;-)

I'll give you $20 for it! And I'll 'review' it for use in my hammock!

James I just need to finish up my website and get a few more items in stock. I'm going to have a few regularly stocked items and also an option for custom work. I have fun making the custom stuff but it can be time consuming. I am very meticulous and I think its starting to show now that I have the right equipment.

I have the perfect idea for a valve. It will look absolutely professional and should weigh even less. It wont be good for large volume items like sleeping pads but a pillow is no problem. I'll keep you all posted. Anyway here is the little 16.6g guy all rolled up.


The palm reader said there was a pillow in my future?

Edited by Bender on 10/21/2009 13:09:47 MDT.

I compared your pillow's dimensions to that of the Montbell's 2.4 oz pillow:

your pillow: 3.5" x 07.5" x 12.0"
your weight: 1.3 oz
cubic inches: 315
per cubic inch weight: 0.004126984

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=33&p_id=1124290

montbell's: 3.9" x 10.6" x 18.5"
montbell wt: 2.4 oz
cubic inches: 764.79
per cubic inch weight: 0.003138116

montbell is lighter per cubic inch by:
23.961027 percent

I doubt if it is due to fabric difference, it might be per overhead items like valve -- wonder what else.

But Montbell's (I do own one and enjoy it) is only one size, and one shape. I like Bender's work!!!!

by per cubic inch, perhaps. But it's bigger. And heavier. I don't need the extra fabric. I'll take the overall lighter weight, and gear made by a craftsman instead of on an assembly line, any day.

Oh geez ... buying this'll blow my rep for being a CHEAP B*STARD! (this plus the NeoAir)

But I'll rescind my earlier vote for a double thickness pillow in favor of what I'm saying next ...

Pls, pls, PLS! keep extra material with a hole punched at all four (or three) corners. It'll allow me to fasten the pillow to the top of a belly pack (fanny pack worn in front) or clothing sack in order to build up height for when using a thicker sleeping pad.

Martin If I did a pillow the same exact dimensions it would only be 1.75 ounces including valve. If you calculate by volume you wont get an accurate picture of whats going on. It takes very little extra fabric to have a much larger volume.

To paraphrase Scotty ... You canna change the laws of geometry, Roleigh!

For not-too-differently-shaped-volumes like this the larger volume item will have a lower surface area to volume ratio than the smaller one.

Do the math and you'll see that pretty much explains the diff you are reporting.

Also, each individual needs to evaluate for themselves how much value they'd get from the larger Montbell pillow. For myself, coming from a 1"x3"x4" foam pillow on top of a belly pack, this new one will be a nice step up!

>Pls, pls, PLS! keep extra material with a hole punched at all four (or three) corners. It'll allow me to fasten the pillow to the top of a belly pack (fanny pack worn in front) or clothing sack in order to build up height for when using a thicker sleeping pad.

Good idea, I never would have considered that.

Oh MAN I want one of those little rectangular units. Fantastic idea folks. Keep up the brainstorming!

I am tempted to try and make a pillow out of the leftovers from shortening my NeoAir (ala Steve Evans), but wondered if anyone else has tried something similar? And along those lines, what kind of glue is JB Weld? I have looked in several hardware stores and haven't found it, so I assume it is called something else in this part of the world. Is it a urethane glue? An epoxy glue? Silicone...??? Also, where does a person go to buy blow-up valves!

Its epoxy

I think thermarest sells replacement valves.

Thanks troy.

AS long as it is sealable, who needs 53g!

How about a nice 1.25" clear tubing with a 1/4 or 3/8 ID, JB'd inside, sealed with something like

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=43&product_id=2622

It is not as 'bullet proof' as a twist top but Halkey Roberts make a bunch of valves for inflation too....

Knowing that every gram is worth, well, a gram, you get to sell spare parts ;)

Thoughts?

Lynn JB weld seems to work great for valves but I am now using something more flexible called Amazing Goop. The goop is contact cement/sealant that says it works well with plastics.

John I have been thinking about alternative valves especially for the pillows. I was thinking some vinyl tubing with a plastic Airsoft BB as a stop.

Here is what I made today! Its 12.2 oz for 72x20x2.5" and rolls up quite small. Believe it or not this is 70D nylon but the coating is light. I need better lighting for the picture of the entire pad.

Edited by Bender on 10/22/2009 22:20:10 MDT.

Edit my bad I can add more than 2 pics per post :)

Edited by Bender on 10/22/2009 22:22:40 MDT.

You are the master! These are amazing!

-Tim

I'd suggest silicon tube - less fragile over wider range of temperatures and a BB - too easy to lose perhaps?

THis may sound mad but what about heat welding a good lod fashioned blow up bed valve! The ones on 'water flotation party beds' Small, light, functional?

One word - Awesome

I had 46 yards of material to be delivered today but UPS decided to drop it off at the wrong address. UPS customer service had the audacity to tell me the driver had no way of being contacted because they don't carry phones. Not only do they have phones but the trucks can be tracked via GPS by UPS headquarters. I finally got a hold of the local UPS location and they called the driver so he is going to look for the package. I'm not holding my breath.

hope it all turns up ok.... fingers x'd

you may want to step out your front door and look down the street, especially at addresses that have the same digits as yours, but in a different order. my ups guy is notorious for delivering my stuff to 1636, and that guys stuff to my house at 1663.

Thanks guys I got the package. I did look all over but didn't find it because he put it between the screen door at the wrong address. I was looking for a box sitting out but it was just clear plastic over the bolt of fabric.

That's right this mummy pad is 8.2oz at 72x20x2.5". The two outer tubes are slightly larger so it cradles you.

Soon they'll weigh negative weight!

John a little hydrogen and these will start floating away!

Hi Bender

> The two outer tubes are slightly larger so it cradles you.
Now that IS smart! Way to go.

Cheers

wow, im envisioning an 11.5 oz full length DAM. And christmas is just around the corner :) Great job, and congrats on getting the website up

Oh yeah, did you order all the white 30D stuff or do they have some left?

Edited by willspower3 on 10/29/2009 20:33:12 MDT.

David, the 30D white material is all gone. I bought the last 8 yards. They tell me they don't even know where they got it so they wont order it again. I have a lead on a place that may be able to custom laminate fabric to my specs but its going to cost a LOT due to minimum run length.

Thanks for the complements David & Roger :)

Been fun watching this all unfold Bender. Really great work and craftsmanship. Very impressed with the out of the box thinking. I am currently trying to make my entire kit from gear I make and some for family and friends. If you get around to ordering some custom stuff I would be interested in picking up quite a few yards if it would help you out.

Keep up the good work

Jeff

Just checked out your site. Do you plan to make any 25" wide pads and do those pads insulated with down or are you going to sell those later?

Cesar with the blue material I can do 26" wide with the tubes going horizontal. I have a very small amount of the white material left and that could go 40"+. You should see some down pads showing up if you keep your eye this thread!

I went back through this entire thread twice and couldn't find the URL of the new website... Are you allowed to post that here on this forum? If so I'd love to check it out!

It's on his profile.

Kookabay

My 60" mummy cut pad just arrived today... 6.7 ounces! Awesome job Ben.

I'd be interested in a 26" wide version also - preferably 75" long. I'll keep an eye on the site.

John I'm glad you like it! At 6.7oz its the lightest one I have made to date.

Scott I can do 75x26 just send me a PM and let me know what you are thinking.

Bender--any progress with creating insulated versions (either down or synthetic) yet?

Yes I have. I just did a 70" rectangular pad with 3.6oz of 750FP down insulation. Side by side you can quickly feel a difference between the insulated & non insulated version. A BA Pumphouse works great for inflation. My standard 72" down pad would weigh just under a 16oz. Synthetic insulation would be much easier to work with. I may try something like Climashield for a less expensive option.

Cool! I'll be interested to see pricing on the down and XP versions once that is more fully developed. The uninsulated versions seem like they'd be great for warm-weather backpacking, but even my mid-summer nighttime lows are usually in the 40's or lower, so an insulated pad is kind of a must.

Here are a few recent creations!

I think it's awesome when people work together to develop an "open-source" project, just like this project when it started off. The Linux operating system (an alternative to Windows or Mac) is a beautiful example.

Since this is a MYOG forum, will updated instructions on how to make a similar sleeping pad and pillow be available soon? If not, are the instructions in the first post the recommended "design document"?

Thanks,

Nick

Nick I run Kubuntu on my computers & OpenWRT on several wireless routers :)

I can be of more help if anyone has specific questions. Once you get the sealing temperature down (trial & error) its not difficult, just tedious and time consuming. To get started the bare minimum requirements are heat seal-able nylon, a valve, a household iron, scissors, Sharpie, ruler, and patience. If I have time I may be able to start writing a more thorough how to guide.

Edited by Bender on 11/20/2009 10:33:26 MST.

How are the insulated pad tests going? I have an Exped Downmat 7 I want to replace and I was going to go with a Stephenson's DAM but am waiting to see what you are able to come up with first.

Things are a little hectic this time of year so I haven't had as much time to work on tweaking the down version. I have been trying no-see-um mesh sewn to strips of heat seal nylon to make internal baffles. All of my sleeping pads thus far have been sealed through. Think sewn threw sleeping bag versus I beam style baffled construction. I have tested mesh baffles in my pillows and it works great. It only saves 1.5g on my standard sized pillow but for a full sized sleeping pad its in the neighborhood of 30-40g. The only down side is construction time goes up substantially. By request I have custom made several down and synthetic pads thus far. So far they have all been tailored to each users specific needs instead of more standardized like the uninsulated pads. I'm looking into having a custom fabric made for these but its still a long ways off.

bender,
very nice stuff you got going on here. I am oh so inspired to try this out myself, building a DAM and some air beams.

I'm a hammock camper so coming up with a custom design would be HUGE for me (us). It's the shoulder area that needs a bit more coverage so a couple of extra tubes off that direction would be just great! also, my hammock (warbonnet blackbird) has a foot box so few small tubes off that direction would complete a perfect design. I'll have to play around with my existing pad, adding those extra components, and get the exact dimensions for the new shape.

even though I have zero experience with down material I'm willing to give this a try, or better yet have someone with experience (you) give it a go first. I still have to make my own air beams for another project (related) so I'll be starting out with that first, then work my way up to the tougher ideas (dam).

so you're trying to make baffles? I'm having a bit of trouble seeing that being done and what material you're using.

it's time to get a sewing machine and other equipment, I finally got most of the pieces of my puzzle and now it's time to put it all together!

thanks again!
dennis

Dennis let us know how your project turns out if you decide to do it. What do you mean by air beams? I have been trying out no-see-um baffles sewn to nylon. It works great but takes forever to make.

I completely ran out of valves & material after the holiday rush. I just had the latest material delivered today and the weight is slightly better than before. For the standard 70d material a 60" mummy pad is now only 9.8oz! I will be adding XP insulated air mats & more standard sizes to Kooka Bay shortly.

Edited by Bender on 01/15/2010 20:43:55 MST.

Bender,

Do you think it's possible to make a double-wide version (say 44 or 46" x 72") for two? Girlfriend and I want to eliminate the hassle of trying to strap together two sleeping pads, only to always have a cold spot in the middle anyways. Down-filled at least R6 is needed.

Also, I'm in the process of drawing up some ideas for a foot pump. Not sure what it will weigh but I must say that after using an Exped Pump mat there is no way I want to go back to filling mats with a BA Pumphouse if I can avoid it. Maybe there is some way of incorporating such a pump into your mat's design to save the weight of a separate pump?

What about using a bicycle pump. This one, the zefyl x-light carbon, is 50 g.


You could make an attachment to the valve or perhaps just mount the bike tube valve directly into the mat?

Bike pumps are designed for low volume, high pressure. Air mats are very high volume, very low pressure. It would take forever and be a lot of effort.

Bradley 45-46" is the widest I can go by making the baffles go horizontal. Otherwise the widest would be 40-41" with baffles going vertical. I can do goose down or Climashild XP insulation.

I'm still very interested in this project and was wondering how the how-to guide is coming along. The less mistakes I make the first time around, the better.

Thanks!

Nick

I came across this thread on Hammock Forums and being one that likes to make a lot of my own gear and cut down weight as much as possible I found this thread very intriguing. Wanting to try this project out myself, I went to questoutfitters.com and they have 2 types of heat sealable fabric that they sell and both are $6.99 a yard. The first is 200 denier Heat sealable Oxford, and the other is a 70 denier Heat Sealable Taffeta. Both are 100% nylon. I have not purchased either of these but I have made many purchases over the last year from Quest and they are always top notch to deal with and their shipping prices are some of the lowest I have bought from.

As I recall this product is a 30 denier, so is much lighter than 70 or 200 but will be more fragile.
For the DAM you may look at Skunk Works pages. For his DAM, he made silk tubes filled with down. Using this technique you would make 1) several silk tubes filled with down, then make the air mattress (3 sides sealed) insert the silk/down tubes then finish seal the 4th side.
-Dale

There,s a post on the blog somewhere about a homemade or rather home-tweaked ultra-lite pump. Here it is:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27928

Edited by obxcola on 02/26/2010 21:23:24 MST.

JB Weld is found in auto supply stores. It can withstand high heat, so is used in engine part repairs. It must it be a kin of epoxy, since it is fsold in a two tube kit with the ingredients then mixed to harden.

(used in homemade alcohol stoves)

Edited by rambler on 03/01/2010 17:47:06 MST.

There are a few different types of J B Weld. You want to make sure you have the kind you expect.

--B.G.--

I have never joined a forum such as this where I have been so absolutly blown away from the innovation!

Been here 2 weeks and already have 120+ bookmarks... which is quite a mess and I've been saving pictures along with the url as names... so I can refference back..

Totally blown away by everyone here!

Another alternative to the iron and not as hot as a soldering iron would be a ski/snowboard repair gun or pistol used for melting and distributing "ptex" into a gouge in the base of a ski or snowboard. Some models are around $40.
http://www.slidewright.com/proddetail.php?prod=K106C&cat=52

I have been thinking about the downs in the air mattress:
In order to prevent the down from leaving your mattress when you deflate it, you'd want to install some kind of a 'net' on the inside of the valve. probably an inch or two away from the valve in order to increase the net’s surface area.
However, when storing the mat at home inbetween your trips, the air tight mattress is not a good place to keep the downs. It is too constricted and they have no way to ‘breath’ which downs should. Thus, i think it is best to somehow make that net mentioned above removable. In this way you could remove the net and then let let all the down out and keep them in a better siuted place inbetween backpacking trips. Letting them out should be fairly easy, just by deflating it most of them should exit. And if you deflate the mat’s air along with the downs into a proper nylon bag right away, it should not be too messy (i.e. not loosing too many downs). Also, you’d want to take a very tight woven nylon bag for this with avery small opening preferably one that you can ‘attach’ to the valve of your mat. In this way, when you want your downs back in your mat, you can just attach the storing bag’s valve to the deflated mat’s valve, open the valves and pump up the valve with the storing bag. (in order to make this work, the nylon of the storing bag needs to be woven tightly enough to use it as a pumping bag, yet breathable, else you had gained nothing.)

The Problem is i’m not too sure as how to install that removable net in the mattresses valve. What are you guys thinking about this?

Another concern: has anyone tested the mat with a radiation barrier (solar blankt or space blanket) in order to increase the mat’s r-value (clo)? In the NB fugu jacket this seems to be working quite well. And is thermarest’s neoair not having one of those radiation barriers as well?

David

Bender: what sort of weight would a 72" mummy pad with climashield XP come in at? Would it be as warm as a Thermarest prolite 4?

Rog with some of the new material I have a 72x20x3.5" mummy with Climashild XP can be as little as 12oz. Compared to a Prolite this would be 3.5x thicker with a slightly higher R value.

David I have already made numerous down air mats so I have learned quite a bit. Any method to keep the down perfectly in place or have it removable kills the weight savings. The down is not going to be highly compressed unless the R value were very high. Even when down is compressed it retains a great deal of its effectiveness.

Bender i first have to say i love the work you have done.

I have a question regarding the baffles. How do you make the baffles and what material do you use?

I am currently working a a few DIY projects and this was one thing that i was trying to figure out.

> What are you guys thinking about this?

I'm thinking that it's not a practical proposition. I really can't see that the down would:

a) come out entirely through the valve
b) be able to be blown back in again

I think the valve opening would simply be too small. then there's the issue of re-distributing the down, even if you can blow it back in.

What you might do is add a second valve, and blow a gentle, continuous stream of air through the mat in order to remove any moisture that has collected in the down, whilst not moving the down around within the mat. If you warmed the mat whilst doing it, it would assist in the evaporation and elimination of the mositure.

I have an Insul-Max MaxThermo, and wish it had a second valve so I could do this; you can see moisture in the thing when you deflate it fully. One day I'll build a cycling inflate/deflate pump to try to address this...

I received my pad from Bender yesterday and have to say I am impressed. The seams and sealing is very consistent, straight, and even. My custom pad used the standard 70d fabric and is 24" wide, 60" long, and 3.5" thick with some 6 oz of down with the total weight coming in at 21.5 oz with an inflated size of 23" x 59". This is replacing both my short and regular length exped downmat 7's that weighed 20.4 oz and 28.5 oz respectively (without the pump-sacks). I decided on this length based loosely on the measurement from the floor to the top of my shoulders and will put my pack under my head to help elevate my stuff sack pillow. I wanted a wider pad and expect the extra width this new pad provides to help with cutting down on drafts during quilt use, as I tend to toss and turn throughout the night. I do not strap my quilt to the pad but often use some elastic straps that I made to keep the quilt wrapped around me while still allowing for all my moving around. This width also allows for laying on my back while having my elbows and arms stay on the pad without having to clasp my hands across my abdomen. For reference I am 5' 9" and 170lbs with a shoulder girth of 51"

The fabric had a much softer hand than I expected and is certainly much lighter than the fabric on the other insulated pads I have used in the past. It doesn't seem to be any more noisy than other mattresses and certainly less than a neo-air. I deliberated over the 30d fabric but glad I went with the heavier 70d. He also has a 200d for those that tend to be harder on gear or use little to no ground cloth under them. The 200d is probably more like the fabric used on the exped downmats which are 170d or 190d as I recall. The pad seems to be quite a bit more "bouncey" than my previous pads but I don't think it will be a problem. Some of this is due to the fact that the pad is 3.5" vs the 2.8" of the exped mats. Moreover, the Kookabay pad even though it is 4" wider uses 2 fewer chambers across the width. I am not sure what the baffles are made from but in earlier posts Bender had mentioned that he had been experimenting with sewing mesh to strips of nylon and then heat sealing the strips to the top and bottom. If mesh netting, that could also contribute to a little more stretch or bounce. Based on the way the pad inflated it appeared that air moved across the chambers as much as it did from end to end, suggesting that perhaps mesh netting had been used. When I tried to feel through the fabric to help determine the material being used, I could not tell if there was a seam or not. If I were to construct one myself I would use the 30d nylon for the baffles not wanting to field test the long term durability and reliability of the netting or the sewn connection between the two, while still minimizing weight. Perhaps Bender can shed some light on this.

The pad inflated great but I must admit that I had a difficult time getting it to deflate. The valve used appears to be a nylon material and is a simple barbed hose fitting with some mesh netting stretched across the internal end to keep down from escaping and a screw on cap with a gasket that has been attached with silicone. The down pods act as a very effective one way valve against the mesh and with the pad fully inflated and the cap removed, it took nearly ten minutes to deflate and I had to keep folding while laying on the mat. I did find that if I put my finger in the valve and moved it around, it seemed as though I could get a faster flow. A plus to the slow deflating is that the down should stay better put in the chambers and not want to move toward the valve end. There is no mechanism for keeping the down from migrating from one chamber to another which will happen over time and there isn't enough down in the mat to keep it in place based on friction alone as is the case in a slightly overfilled sleeping bag chamber. If the baffles are in fact a mesh material, they will help hold some of the down in place. A thin strip of open cell foam could be placed at either end and attached via the heat sealable cover. Not only would this keep the down from migrating, but it would eliminate the slow deflation by not allowing the down the clog the air valve. This would come at the expense of some weight and bulk but it wouldn't be more than an ounce. At the very least, if a small block of foam could be cut into a triangular shape and placed in the corner where the valve is located, it would significantly reduce the deflation time and add negligible weight or bulk and allow for better integration of the more typical pad valve that would integrate with all the pump sacks available on the market. If he goes into full time production I am certain he could get a very competitive price on the valves. The only other finishing touch would be to radius cut the corners slightly but it isn't a big deal - just a nice touch on a great pad. I had a Stephenson's DAM many years ago and this pad is a much more commercialized product.

Sorry about the long post but I know there are many fence sitters out there wanting more info. All in all a very impressive pad from the ever growing cottage industry. I will be out this weekend testing the new pad and a new 14oz quilt. It may seem a bit odd to be combining a 14oz quilt with a 21.5 oz pad but it makes perfect sense to me. ;-)

A few have asked about baffle materials for the insulated pads. Currently I use the same baffle material as what is used for the shell. I have been experimenting with using 30d baffles and 70d for the shell to get the best of both worlds. For a full size pad this saves roughly 1oz. I need to do some more testing before all are made this way. Deflation gets easier when you find a way that works well for you. When I wake up in the morning I pull the plug and let the air mat deflate. With any air mat insulated or non; rolling it up once quickly to get most of the air out is a good idea. This will allow you to make the final roll up much smaller. I must say I have a bit more experience in this area than most. I do several a day and it does get much quicker with practice!

Thanks for the info Ben. I have found over the years that if I release the valve to let out the air when it's time to get up, I have a hard time laying there for long on the cold hard ground. With your new pad I now have a bit of a "snooze" alarm which becomes more appreciated every year.

John that is my point exactly. When I deflate and end up on the ground it finally gets me out of bed. Now if I could only hook my alarm clock to the valve the wake up system would be fool proof!

How do you make the i beams? Do you use 2 pieces together or just one piece?

Also i found this valve that might be a substitute:
http://www.scubagoo.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=30522
http://www.halkeyroberts.com/products/inflation/oral-tube-tube-end-relief-valves/800rol-oral-inflation-valve.aspx

Awesome work, Bender! Have you sourced any more 30d material?

Also, have you pursued the UL pump idea?

Richard each I beam is its own piece. The valves look quite heavy to me.

P ritch yes I have and its averaging 7g a yard less than before! I have a working sub 1oz (with battery) pump but I need to get a bit more pressure out of it to work best.

Edited by Bender on 04/14/2010 22:26:10 MDT.

I would like to make an insulated sleeping pad using synthetic insulation (XP or combat). How do you recommend constructing the sleeping pad?

One idea is to sandwich the synthetic insulation between two pieces of shell material. In this case, how should the insulation be secured to the shell material? Or, do you recommend a different approach?

Regarding the valve, what is your preferred product so far and method for securing it in place?

Thank you,

Nick

BUMP !

Nick,
Maybe send Bender a PM(personal message)?