It was .95 kg. Sorry I wrote .91 kg.

It didn't appear to have a torso length adjustment system. The shoulder straps were sewn in.

acronym 5/25/2010 10:12 AM

I have collected a stable of loaner gear for scouts. The most useful packs are external frame packs, and my smallest frame sizes are the most used. They are handier than internal frame packs, because the scout can lash on big fat sleeping bags and pads. I have two super small external frames, and some mid size external frame packs also.

I also have some synthetic sleeping bags, that my family members have outgrown or got a better one to replace it. I don't mint loaning those out.

I have seen some 2 man tents for $40 that are decent. A tarp would also work.

For sleeping pads, I would get $5 foam pads at walmart. I don't loan those out.

our troop blog is here: http://boisetroop100.wordpress.com/

> The most useful packs are external frame packs, and my smallest frame sizes are the most used. They are handier than internal frame packs, because the scout can lash on big fat sleeping bags and pads.

So what's the lightest external frame that would fit 11-13 year olds?

REI makes a super small one, and Kelty makes one. They are the smallest size external frame they make. I think the REI one is called the Long Trail. I cruise ebay, craigs list, and yard sales for them, and would add another two to my inventory if I find them.

I admit to being a bit lazy as a Scouter in South Australia in the last year or so. Apart from running a 4 day bushwalking comp over Easter for Venturers (14-18 year old Scouts in Aus), I've only just managed to take out our Venturer Unit over the last weekend, bushwalking for 3 days (there was a public holiday) in the Flinders Ranges.

Ultralight gear and technique is pretty scarce in Aus, let alone in Scouting. Which is a shame. Actually, bushwalking is becoming really scarce...no doubt the trip we did on the weekend will rate as one of the top bushwalks of the year for any Scouts in SA. Crying shame.

The main issue is that leaders aren't trained or experienced or motivated (I luckily have the these assets...just not the time) in even heavyweight traditional bushwalking, let alone ultralight ideas. As a result, Scouts of any age recieve poor or little training, and just don't get out.

Anyway, I'm thinking, after I get back from my upcoming big trip (A fellow Leader and I are cycling touring our way to the 22nd World Jamboree), I'm going to start getting into trying to reverse the trend.

One thing I'm thinking of, is building up a suite of ultralight gear that I can loan out to Scout Troops and Venturer Units for bushwalking, providing it free of charge, as long as I (and some willing able helpers) can spend at least one night fitting them to it, and giving them some basic training in its use, and helping their leaders (preferably though, the Scouts themselves), plan their trip appropriately.

As part of this, I was also thinking of building up a big 3(+), to include a couple of dozen sets of gear. The + is some extras that I think are important, like cooking gear (lightweight alcohol stove sets, rather than trangias which are really common in Aus), sleeping mats (for pack frame), waterproof jackets, group first aid kits, etc.

So far, my thoughts are roughly:

Packs: combination of some Gossamer Gear Gorilla's (in varying sizes, plus spare hipbelts in different sizes) and Six Moon Designs Starlites (I like the idea of varying torso length). Both of these look like good ultralight packs, with good durable materials and construction, esp the Starlite. Sleeping mats to go with them would be 3/4 length Z-lites to fit. After a while I might consider making up G4 style packs with help from family seamstresses.

Shelter: I love my MLD trailstar. Only thing is its a little expensive. But something similar shouldn't be too hard to make. Large tarps are ideal for SA conditions at any time of year, and I think with a little training Scouts shouldn't have any trouble safely using them. They should last ages with care. I'll buy a roll of hardwear store plastic to cut up for lots of lightweight groundsheets.

Sleeping bags: not sure yet, but I'll go with synthetic bags, and have silk or nylon innersheets (homemade) to go with them. Probably wash the bags every few trips, and the liners after every trip.

Stoves: home made pepsi can or similar, with homemade stands and flashing windshields. Probably find alloy pots around the 1L size mark, and making lids from flashing or baking trays.

First Aid: I'll make these kits up myself.

Jackets: I'm thinking rainbird jackets (not sure if they are sold outside Aus, but they are a lightweight, compact, cheap $40 jacket sold in Aus). Its rare I see a Scout with a waterproof jacket, let alone a quality one. When they do, they are usually >750grams.

I'll probably get cracking on this whole thing in about two years I reckon, but have plenty to think about in the meantime. Hopefully I can get some funding from the State Branch.

> I was also thinking of building up a big 3(+), to include a couple of dozen sets of gear

Sounds like fun. 2 suggestions:
1) Whenever you think you should make something - don't. The boys should make their own with your close supervision.

2) The BSA(merica) has recently developed a problem with homemade alcohol stoves. I don't know what the (BSA)ustralia thinks about them, but you should check.

acronym 6/16/2010 12:39 AM

I have a friend who started an ultralight backpacking course in his middle school and when he and I were looking at gear for his program, we selected the Golite Hex shelters. Now the Golite Shangri La tents- either the 3 or 5. These tents are big to fit several scouts, are ultralight yet durable, and they're modular- if the floor is destroyed you only replace that.

An idea...

Thanks for the reply :-)

1) I'd love to do this too, and it would be part of the plan to be able to get interested Scout Troops (10.5-14years old in Aus) and Venturer Units (14-18) to build their own gear with experienced supervision. To start with though, I'm thinking it easier and more worthwhile with my own limited resources and manpower (and struggling to find other people who are interested...its pretty hard round here) to just supply the gear on loan for trips, as well as some training and leadership with it. Once they understand using the gear a bit more, and are interested (the major issue) in doing more bushwalking, a future step would be for them to make or purchase their own gear. Prior to that I think its more important to get them interested, take them out, and make sure they have a good time so that they want to do it again. One of the big reasons why I want to develop a quality ultra-light gear set and train them; too many Scouts head out on their first walk with massive, awful packs and gear and never want to do it again.

2) That sucks. I don't think Scouts Australia even knows that its possible to make your own stove, so it shouldn't be a problem. Few people in Aus do. Trangias are really popular, and although I don't think there are any SS&Ps (Safety Standards and Procedures-our national document relating to safety rules for activities) relating to stove use while bushwalking, there is a general consensus that only metho stoves are to be used by Youth. In South Australian schools (which, greatly, but also sadly do more bushwalking than Scouts do), there are firmer rules, about stove use. For example, only Metho stoves (I don't think they deliberate only trangias or for particular designs), fuel and refilling must be supervised by an experienced leader, and only trangia brand fuel bottles (due to their safety spout) are to be used.

Good Scouting,

Adam

Edited by oysters on 06/17/2010 22:00:17 MDT.

I love alcohol stoves, the Caldera being my go to stove. But anything that can go wrong will go wrong with scouts. My scouts didn't get my MSR Dragonfly put together right, and it sprayed gas all over, and when they lit it one kid had a fireball on his hand, and my pump unit melted.

Do that with an invisible flame, and oh my. Maybe that is why in the US they recommend only using compressed gas for scouts. I have to agree.

Tents: we have 2 man big agnes tents, that weigh about 5-6 pounds. They get a lot of abuse over a season, but split between two scouts they are ok for weight, easy to set up, and fairly tough. We have some rain on trips, and need mosquito protection. They always find a way to carry a tent between 2 scouts, even small ones.

going light: the biggest step we take for going light is to weigh packs, and take out unnecessary spare clothes and redundant gear. I take a few spare raincoats and fleece pullovers to loan out, but rarely need them. Super light packs won't work unless you have sleeping bags that will go in them, which is why the external frames are good.

We offer 20% discount to all scouts who are getting ready for a trip and 15% any other time, on everything.

This reply may be a little late, but maybe not too late.

I think you should look at Slumberjack sleeping bags. I know that these are not on many people's radar, but the are very reasonable priced and reasonably light. Slumberjack has the Super Guide Thermolite Extreme 30 degree bag, only $50 at Campmor and 2 lbs 9 oz. Or there is the Ultimate 20 Thermolite Extreme for $60 and 3 lbs. I am sure you can find these on sale cheaper and/or get a discount for Scouts. By the way, my son used the Super Guide bag for his entire experience in Scouting (8 years to 18 years, Eagle Scout) including 2 trips to Philomnt and several 3 to 5 day trips outside Scouting. It has held up quite well.

Also, consider Eureka tents. They have a couple of lightweight models that are quite durable and all are priced very reasonably. I have owned 2 Eureka tents for at least 10 years, put many nights on them and they are still in excellent condition.

For backpacks, consider the Kelty packs and the GoLite packs. Both are reasonably priced. The Kelty packs are very durable and some are pretty light. GoLite has some light packs that can be found quite reasoably, even cheap. I got a 2 lb, 4,500 ci Pinnacle pack recently for $43. Hard to beat. This is a frameless pack and probably not what you want for Scouts, but it is an example of a good pack for a great price.

The advice about Alps Mountaineering equipment bought from their ScoutDirect site is excellent. They have great prices for solid equipment. Their tents are very competitive on weight if you get the right one. Their sleeping bags and packs ot so competitive on weight, but great prices.

Hope this helps and that you are making progress equipping your Scouts.

Recreationoutlet.com has the Ledge Recluse 3 man tent for $89. I bought one earlier this summer. It comes in at 6.5 lbs. It is big enough to sleep 3 scouts and has dual entrance and dual vestibles, aluminum poles/stakes. I really like mine.

Granite Gear Virga - $110/19oz
Marmot Pounder - $110/22oz (campmor.com)
Cocoon Silk Liner - $50/5oz "keeps bag clean from scouts"
REI Half-Dome -$179/61oz "best price:weight ratio for tent?"

Total Each Scout - $359.5/76.2oz (4.76lbs)

> REI Half-Dome -$179/61oz

The Half Dome is at least a 5 lb tent (80 oz).

acronym 9/28/2010 9:22 AM

"The Half Dome is at least a 5 lb tent (80 oz)."

You are correct, I listed the footprint/fly weight only. oops.

(Adjusted) Total Each Scout - $359.5/85.7oz (5.36lbs)

Edited by cobberman on 09/28/2010 09:10:55 MDT.

For shelters- what about some of the tents offered by Luxe Outdoors? They've a great price to weight ratio and are made of more robust fabrics than a lot of the UL shelters used around here. I've read good things about their tents. They're a bit heavy for most BPLers, but seems like the sweet spot for a Scouts.

Luxe Outdoors Habitat - 2P, 4.2 lbs - $160-220 - Improved clone of the MSR Hubba Hubba.

Luxe Outdoors Mini-Peak II - 1P, 2.5 lbs - $100 - Pyramid w/ net tent

> Luxe Outdoors Habitat - 2P, 4.2 lbs

I'm interested. Is there a US dealer?

acronym 11/10/2010 1:09 PM

Still have to say for tents the Alps Mountaineering/Scout Direct Zephyr 2 or 3 is one of the best deals out there..... at 4lbs 12oz & 5lbs 7oz, virtually freestanding (need 2 stakes for vestibules) and priced at $93.50 & $105.50!!
Our troop carried a Zephyr 2 & 3 this past summer at Philmont and both worked splendidly!!! We've had them for about 3 years now and they are still going strong!!

I got into sewing from needing gear for Scouting that was
either unavailable or too expensive.

I now have quite a bit of scrap fabric in some pretty large
pieces that I donate to scout groups.

Mostly 30d, 70d, and 210d coated nylons which make good
tarps, stuffsacks and packs.

For shelters, tarps can have advantages over tents if your
hiking areas don't demand a full tent. Some groups to
Philmont have used pyramid tarps. They liked smaller ones
to fit the existing tent spots.

For adults needing to keep an eye on youth, a tarp pitched
up off the ground gives one much better visual supervision.

Down itself is quite durable, it is the baffles that are
fragile. Synthetic insulation needs care too. If it is dried
too hot, it melts and shrinks. I have seen winter synthetic
bags go from fitting someone at 6'6" and having 8 inches of
loft go to fitting someone 5'10" and have 5 inches of loft
in one washing and drying cycle.