-20 was not an official statement. That was only my experience. I would recommend the bag as a -5 degree bag in order to provide a margin of safety. But I would also suggest that they do some testing themselves before using it below zero.

On the other side of the coin, because I am a user of their bags too, I may just have more experience with them than the average person and am anxious to share my findings. I retail for Integral Designs and Montbell as well, and make the LEAST profit margin on Valandre bags! Financial motive is not the primary reason for promoting their products.

Valandre has had lots of testers that have taken the Shocking Blue below zero. The bag has been demo'd for several years.

I have a hang up myself on the temps posted on the new site and think that they need to fix them. But it will take time and patience to get all of the bugs worked out on the new site.

Getting back to the original post, thanks to all of you who have posted with your objective opinions. They have been helpful and I will be passing your feedback on to Niels at Valandre.

GS, O.K., so you do not believe the posts by Charlie Jennings and seem most concerned about people being bumped off in ...the backcountry..., due to believing in a situation which I find quite credible.

So, may I enquire as to your actual cold weather experience, say, how many years of regular winter sub-zero camping you have done? Have you camped in Alaska, the Yukon, B.C., the N.W.T. or other regions with very cold weather and remote wilderness?

My own coldest night was only -41*F and in an original Marmot Mtn. Works bag, rated by them, to -25*F. This was in January, 1978, in "Kokanee Glacier Park", near Nelson, B.C. and I found this bag, in my Early Winter's GT bivy and in my Fjallraven Expedition tent, warm enough to sleep comfortably....but, could have used a better pad system.

I often slept in my tent(s) at -10*F to -25*F, measured with my R.E.I. Taylor thermometer, which I still possess, ,in my old Caravan double expedition bag from Sweden and my Paul Petzoldt Wilderness Equipment Polarguard expediton bag. The MMW GT-down bag was much better than these and kept me comfy from 1978 to 1999, when it was stolen in a home B&E.

I also slept in my FF summer bag, rated to 40*F, in a tent, at a measured 10*F and in comfort on a thick foamy. This was at Crawford Creek, B.C., in Oct. 2001, when Elk hunting. I sleep warmer than most and find my VSB about ideal for almost all contemporary B.C. winter conditions....I would not hesitate to use it at -20.

My first "winter" overnight was in November, 1964 and I have spent 100s of nights in bags in cold weather, here in B.C. Everyone is different and a tent can make a BIG difference, so, I believe what Charlie is saying here.

Edited by Kutenay on 09/03/2009 20:49:55 MDT.

Charlie - should you wish to lend me a Shocking Blue I will do some objective testing for everyone. I promise to be completely unbiased. Of course, you will need to lend me your Nallo 2 as well.

; )

Someone asked:

"So, may I enquire as to your actual cold weather experience, say, how many years of regular winter sub-zero camping you have done? Have you camped in Alaska, the Yukon, B.C., the N.W.T. or other regions with very cold weather and remote wilderness?"

My experience is limited to:

1) Alaskan climbing, including 2 trips to Denali (one day the weather will cooperate and I'll top out, at least that's what I keep telling myself), 1 trip to Hunter (on its flanks -- didn't attempt the summit), and 1 trip up Foraker (very difficult climb for me). I learned - in VERY short order - about cold weather survival on my first trip to Denali. It was an early season attempt (we landed on the Kahiltna glacier on April 28), and encountered -15F temps at Kahiltna Pass, a mere 3 days into the trip. And it just got colder from there.

3) Unanticipated camp outside the barrels on Elbrus (right next to a disgusting trash dump beyond the barrels). A russian military unit (about 40 of them) decided to come ski the mountain for a few days, and they took up ALL the space inside. We were left wondering why they wanted to stay at the barrels on a ski trip, but I guessed they didn't come to ski - despite having carried their skis with them. More likely, they simply came to drink because were drunk the entire time, and they didn't like that a few of us were americans. I didn't feel like insisting that they make room for us inside, because in addition to skis, they had automatic weapons with them. The hut a little further up the mountain had just burned down, so we decided to just stay put and bivy. Cold, windy night. Not sure of the temp, but WELL below zero.

4) Cascade climbing, including a winter ascent of Rainier, an early season ascent of Hood and a late season climb up Adams.

5) A windy, somewhat cold spring backpack of the circuit in Torres del Paine. The wind was the real issue, as temps bottomed out around 0 on the coldest night.

6) Numerous winter backpacking and skitour trips in New Hampshire, Maine, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. Nighttime temps below zero are the rule, rather than the exception.

Never done any winter camping in the Yukon or BC.

Edited by BackpackerWithNoName on 09/04/2009 09:45:57 MDT.

Hi, I am Niels, having a connection problem to post, just giving it a test ride

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=16702

James Sweeney did some testing of the Shocking Blue. James is one of the few that understands the intricate design of the baffles of the Shocking Blue and this post is worth reading.

No, he is not a SALESMAN for Valandre'.

Comparing the Freja to the Shocking Blue is like comparing apples to oranges.

Edited by vigilguy on 09/04/2009 10:43:27 MDT.

You got a mistake going on with the EN 13537 test reports. We published them, so that you have a dokument, to make your own judgement, weather the EN 13537 norme are credible or not. I have drawn my own, now you should draw yours.

The splash intro, with the psycopat ripping a bag apart, is the essence of the site. In 40 seconds, we take you straight into the hart of the subject. Doors are beeing opened, and you enter the real world of what this is all about. After this site, you know everything to know about down technology.

As I worked 6 month on this project, I realy hope that everybody enjoy it, and atleast respect et effords made.

Niels

Edited by Niels-Henrik on 09/04/2009 11:16:49 MDT.

I agree EN test results are not to be taken as set in stone value for comfort rating.
For exemple i have been using a mirage for a long time, and i know i can sleep warm in it naked a few degrees under zero, but my wife feels cold in it at +5+8°C and i have a friend that sleeps in one down to -10°C.
But even with that in mind its very nice to have results from a normalised test, and i am happy valandré did it for all their bags.

For me, the real value of the EN-norm is that it is supposed to make temperature ratings of different manufacturers comparable. Personally, I think that every temperature indication should be taken with some caution, because even a difference in physical condition can have a big effect.

That's great that you think your video is awesome but not everyone wants to download and watch a 40 second informational video. This should be on a separate page, maybe an 'about our technology' page. Also, upon first visit to your website I have no idea what kind of business you are without watching the video. This is just plain bad design.

The website in general also suffers from bad design. When I click products I see some text and then way at the bottom after a perplexing amount of empty space I finally see the links to your actual products.

The organization of your products is also difficult to navigate. I don't get how you have your bags organized. It's difficult to read the temperature ranges and you shouldn't use the extreme rating there. You should also have a table view which very quickly would allow someone to compare all your bags. If I want to know which bag weighs the least I have to click on each link to each bag and try to remember the values for each one.

Sorry, but the overall design is pretty amateur.

How about moving this thread to: "The G Spot"

Since it really doesn't announce or contain any, "Gear Deals" and it has more or less turned into a comparison between high-end bag manufacturers.

Speaking of... what about made in USA Nunatak Bags?

Edited by biointegra on 09/04/2009 17:01:08 MDT.

GS, very good reply and I thank you for your comments. I don't think much of the drunks you guys encountered at Elbrus, seems like much of the world is infested by such creeps.....thank God that we in Canada have such a safe country!

So, you know about cold weather and I can only say that, when I first heard of Valandre, my initial reaction was, oh, yeah, heres another "BEST"....then, I was sent this one to test and I was AMAZED and, bud, I am an ornery old phart who is not impressed very easily! It reminds me of when I received my old Marmot GT-down bag from Eric Reynolds in 1978....I just was blown away by what it would do compared to ANYTHING I had seen/used up to that time.

I expect to REALLY test the Shocking Blue this coming winter and hope to get into some REAL cold, and compare it with my ID XPDII and my buddie's FF Snowey Owl, one of which I had built, but, never got to use. So, we shall see, but, so far, it simply blows my elderly mind. :)

Good thread, but, Aaron is right, it should go to "G spot".

I would like to exchange some info's with both you Tom and Fred. Please contact Belcaire.

Niels