Hey guys!

This is my first post here so I would just like to say HI to everyone first.

Second, a little about me I'm a 28 yearold designer living in Bellevue and I currently camp in the PNW.

I own a Hubba Hubba and I'm looking to upgrade to the HP. I was hoping to read a review here on the HP but couldn't find anything... Does anyone have experience with it vs the Hubba Hubba?

Also, Would it be worth my time to buy the HP and upgrade to the Fibraplex tent poles and live with that tent for a while?

My alternative is the Nemo Moki ...this wouldn't be as tight for myself, girlfriend and our little Pit Bull. But the setup looks a bit more intense, more weight and I have zero experience with single wall tents.

Looking forward to your guidance.

any love?

Why upgrade? The HP is no stronger than the regular model except maybe at the guyline attachment points. Otherwise the structure is the same. Although 'warmth' would be improved, ventilation would be reduced. It is also barely lighter. It does not seem worth the cost IMHO.

What conditions are you planning to use it in? If snow, there is an abundance of alternative shelters I would recommend.

Hey! Thanks so much for the reply.

I notice myself setting the Hubba Hubba up with the rainfly anyway because my dog sleeps in the tent and if I just have the mesh on, he doesn't sleep at all at night looking through it and "guarding" the camp site. With him stirring and a growl here and a bark there I don't get much sleep.

Honestly, I'm not too thrilled with the mesh tents anyway in terms of camping in the alpine lakes of the Pacific Northwest. I feel like at any moment weather will change and I'm going to get wet. Actually happened at Snow Lake the other week and I was thankful I decided to put the fly on while setting up. In the morning while I was packing up the tent the entire thing was just soaked while I was stuffing it back in to the sack. It just gave me an uncomfortable feeling in terms of knowing should I have to hike 20 miles that day I'd have a wet shelter to sleep in that night.

At least the fly on the Hubba Hubba HP is more waterproof and has windows.

I'm feling like I'm just not in the right tent for what I want it to do.

I think what I want it to do is be bombproof "just in case". Have enough room for myself, my gf and my dog. Yet be light and breathable enough to actually backpack with.

That's why I was looking towards the Nemo tents but the Moki is HEAVY.

Actually the HP model has a less waterproof fly (1000 mm hydrostatic head in comparison to the regular model (1500 mm hydrostatic head)....but it is lighter and potentially stronger.

Since you are willing to spend some $$, have you considered a Hilleberg Nallo 2? A true all season shelter with a decent sized vestibule. Double walled, it has a fabric inner and when you set it up, the inner and outer go up at the same time. The only downside is that it may be heavier than what you want.

On the lighter front, you could consider the Tarptent Scarp 2 with the fabric inner option. Lots of room, side entry, dual vestibules, and a configuration that is more bomber than that of the MSR. It is lighter but has more room. There is also a freestanding option with crossing poles.

I also forgot to mention - welcome to BPL.com.

Alex, short version, no, I don't think the upgrade would be worthwhile... especially in financial terms.

The HP doesn't offer quite as much advantage as it used to... standard Hubbas came with a 5000mm waterproof floor, now they come with the same 10000mm waterproof floor as the HP. The HP fly is actually a little "less waterproof" than the standard. The HP does add reinforcements at the guyouts and peak-ish vents on the ends. The waterproof zip is more marketing than anything. There's more weight difference between standard and HP than there was before, now a 5-ounce difference. But I wouldn't pay $500 bucks for a tent and then spring for a carbon pole set. That's just craziness.

Honestly, if you could get your hands on one it sounds like a Big Sky Convertible is right up your alley. 3 pounds, roomier than a Hubba Hubba, optional HD pole set, interchangeable inner tent (mesh vs nylon). Availability varies, but he has a new factory and theoretically things should be better. It comes standard with aluminum poles, but both carbon and HD poles are available.

Another option I'd consider is a 'mid of some kind. A GoLite ShangriLa 3, for example, would weigh about 4 pounds for 60 square feet (for inner and outer tent and stakes, using trekking poles for center pole). But then again, that wouldn't give you the nylon canopy.

Cheers-

I think I wasn't seeing the value in the Hubba Hubba HP either that's why I was trying to find something else.

My issue with the big sky is the drapy floor doesn't seem clean (not a big issue) but the mesh touching the outer fly? Can that be a problem?

I've been looking at the GoLite tents and the Valhalla looks neat.

Again, no experience with single wall tents...

Golite has 1 and 2 person hooped double walled shelters coming out for 2010 (I am guessing we will hear about it at BPL shortly). Side entry with big vestibule(s). Look similar to the Akto, Scarp, Moment, etc.

Mesh doesn't touch the outer fly at all. Floor no less clean than any other tent on the market that I've seen. Much cleaner, actually, than some.

Alex, I'm surpised you prefer to use your tent without the fly. The 'rainfly' is for more than just rain. It also keeps you warmer by minimizing wind and it gives you percieved feeling of safety from animals. Once in a while I use my mesh tent without the fly, but only when it's warm, calm, 0% chance of rain and I want to see the stars.

If you normally used the fly, you wouldn't have to worry about getting doused with rain in the night.

Regarding the fly getting wet, condensation occurs in any tent in the right conditions. You can minimize this with good tent design and setup, but it's not totally avoidable. The best is to get in the habit of folding your fly up so you keep the moisture inside while hiking instead of exposing the rest of the tent to the moisture. If you do this, the tent body should be dry the next night and if you set it up early the inside of the fly can dry too.

I'm a little confused at what you are looking for. A fabric bodied tent would likely give your dog peice of mind but you'd still be at risk of getting rained on, and you'd get condensation inside the fabric if you didn't use the fly. So really, you'd normally want to use the fly anyways. Perhaps you just want another mesh bodied tent that is more spacious, durable and has a few windows? You can find some nice 4-5lbs 2 person tents that offer this. If you don't mind less waterproofing and no windows, the Scarp 2 is quite a light offering.

Regardless of you choose, I would plan on using the fly most of the time for condensation reasons and to avoid a mid-night rain soaking.

You could buy single wall tent, but then you've got an increased risk of getting wet because the condensation will form inside this instead of inside the fly.

It feels like I'm just all over the place and maybe not making sense. All I know is I'm not fully happy with my Hubba Hubba.

The tent floor wicks in water even with a foot print and my poles are bent from just setting it up (the top poles mostly from the rainfly).

I feel like the mesh doesn't do much for me because I DO use the fly all the time I like having the ability to star gaze in the desert but ...whatever I do most my backpacking by Alpine Lakes.

The tent without guy outs does deflect quiet a bit in gusts and if there is any cold weather it blows right through the inside of the tent taking out all the warmth.

I think I want to be able to control the amount of air movement inside the tent instead of just having a lot.

It seems like a perfect tent for me is something like the Nemo Moki if it were not a single wall tent and weighed about half... Does that make sense at all?

Having said that should I still be scared of single wall tents?

Should you be scared? I dunno...lots of people will say no but I still am. I slept in a single wall shelter about a month ago and in the morning the inside was coated with condensation. The night seemed pretty normal and it was a spacious, well vented, 2 person tent yet the footbox of my down bag was soaked from rubbing on the wall. There was an obvious loss in loft.

With good setup techniques and well designed equipment you can minimize condensation but never totally avoid it. Accordingly, I see a conflict between single wall shelter usage and using a down sleeping bag. On a longer trip, it seems that a loss in loft in your bag would be difficult to avoid if it's a humid/rainy trip where you can't air it out.

Sure you'll normally be fine with a well designed single wall shelter, but you can still wind up screwed when it's the 3rd day of non-stop rain, your sleeping loft is way down and a cold night is coming.

You could use a synthetic bag/quilt but then you're giving back about all of the weight you saved by going to single wall.

I'm not sure how users of single wall tents and down bags deal with this. I suspect they minimize the condensation by setting it up properly with a mind for wind direction and using all ventilation options. Then they try to minimize bag loft loss by keeping it away from the wall and airing the bag out when they can.

Some bags (ie. GoLite Ultra 20) have waterproof panels at the feet to counter act moisture, although in the BPL review of this bag they said the footbox still did get a bit wet.

My minimizing condensation and contact with the wall and airing your bag/quilt out when you can, I imagine you could make a serious bag loft problem quite unlikely.

Edited by dandydan on 07/25/2009 13:35:58 MDT.

Having spent multiple days (in a row) trying to set up a double walled tent which pitched inner first without getting the interior soaked and failing miserably, I like single walled tents for that reason alone.

And the considerable weight savings.

And the ability to get much more livable space at the same weight as a comparable double wall.

And generally smaller packed size.

Yup, really like 'em.

As long as the single wall is reasonably well ventilated and is large enough to minimize contact with any interior walls with your down goodies, there is really no benefit to a double wall (except in the winter, but that is another discussion).

If your set on getting a double wall, check out the BA Copper Spur UL2. Basegear.com is offering a 20% off coupon code.

Another option over in left field would be a Silnylon pyramid shelter, which for the weight can offer a lot of space and handle winter trips too.

Oware is offering 20% off just about everything, so you could get an 8X8, 9x9,or even a 10x10 pyramid shelter at a great price. coupon code: MovingtoWA

Edited by mfog1 on 07/25/2009 16:51:22 MDT.

David: "Having spent multiple days (in a row) trying to set up a double walled tent which pitched inner first without getting the interior soaked and failing miserably, I like single walled tents for that reason alone."

Lots of double wall tents let you set up the fly first. I wouldn't close the door on double walls because some of them have this trait.

David: "And the considerable weight savings...And the ability to get much more livable space at the same weight as a comparable double wall."

The weight difference between single and double walls is getting pretty narrow. When you compare one of the sub 3-lbs double wall tents with a single wall tent that has poles, the difference is usually pretty minor. You can get a double wall 2 person tent under 2.5lbs, not many 2 person single wall shelters that use poles can beat this.

David: "As long as the single wall is reasonably well ventilated and is large enough to minimize contact with any interior walls with your down goodies, there is really no benefit to a double wall."

Keep in the mind how much more versatile double walls are. Many double walls can be used with just the body as a lightweight bug free shelter (lighter than a single wall) and many can be used with just the fly as a lightweight rain shelter. The Carbon Reflex 2 with fly, poles and footprint is only 900g.

The BPL Double Wall Tent review summary offers a good comparison between single and double wall attributes:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/double_wall_tents_review_summary.html

Edited by dandydan on 07/25/2009 22:34:51 MDT.

Dan: "The weight difference between single and double walls is getting pretty narrow. When you compare one of the sub 3-lbs double wall tents with a single wall tent that has poles, the difference is usually pretty minor. You can get a double wall 2 person tent under 2.5lbs, not many 2 person single wall shelters that use poles can beat this."

Yes but you are missing one factor - space. A comparative double walled shelter that has the same internal space is most often at least 30-40% heavier. For example, the CR2 and the Rainbow are almost the same size internally but the CR2 packed weighs over 35% more and has carbon fibre poles. Add a carbon fibre pole to the Rainbow and the weight difference is even greater.

Dan: "Keep in the mind how much more versatile double walls are. Many double walls can be used with just the body as a lightweight bug free shelter (lighter than a single wall) and many can be used with just the fly as a lightweight rain shelter. The Carbon Reflex 2 with fly, poles and footprint is only 900g."

Fair enough but to use this set-up I have to carry the MSR footprint as well - another 7-8oz. In fact, I have to carry the entire tent because how can I be sure that it won't rain (or be too windy) on my trip? So now my 'modular' CR2 weighs 46% more than the Rainbow of comparable size.

I have had over 19 shelters in my history - in 3+ season weather I find zero benefit to a double walled tent. In fact, I would argue that many of the current offerings on the market are not really double walled anyway - the mesh body is not much of a wall at all.

I like double wall tents.

One reason is condensation resistance. Before I joined this site I didn't actually know about the concept of "condensation" being a problem in tents. Sure, I knew that my tent fly was wet every morning, but none of the water ever touched me inside the tent so it wasn't a problem. That was with an all-mesh inner too.

I find that single-wall shelters often seem to be a bit "airy". Obviously this is a design feature to minimise condensation, but in more 'alpine' areas I much prefer a "snug" shelter with less airiness. If I was using single wall shelters I would probably want to have 2 or 3 for different conditions. A good double wall tent with mesh allows me to get by with just a single tent over a wide range of conditions.

YMMV!

EDIT: I would also mention that having a separate fly and inner is often very handy. Yes, it can make it more difficult to set up if it is actually raining at the time. But the advantage is that you can store the inner separately from the wet fly. So when you unpack your tent at the end of the day you don't have to climb into a tent which is wet or damp on the inside because the fly was wet when you packed up.

Edited by ashleyb on 07/26/2009 00:02:04 MDT.

The Rainbow is a pretty cool tent. I would be worried about condensation with two people in there though, since you'd be touching against the walls at 38" of width. The thing with single walls is that you pretty much need a roomy tent so you don't brush the walls, whereas a double wall design allows you to use a smaller tent.

Because of the condensation danger, I wouldn't consider the Rainbow an adequate shelter for two on a long trip. I think the singlewall Double Rainbow (1135g) vs. the new double wall Big Anges Fly Creek UL2 (1191g) is an interesting comparo because these tents are both SilNylon so they generally represent the leading edge of their respective categories.

Both offer 2 doors, 2 vestibules and very similar weights (2 oz differnce). The Double Rainbow gives you a bit more space (Both tents are 52" at the head end, but the BA tent narrows to 42" at the feet). Ultimately, the decision seems to lie in how much you fear condensation. With a bit more space, no need to set up the body in the rain and $100 cheaper price, the Double Rainbow compares pretty favorably but there is still the risk of getting your bag wet if you wind up against the wall at night....kinda depends what kind of sleeper you are and how level your campsite is :) If that doesn't worry you then the Rainbow seems like the clear winner.

Edited by dandydan on 07/26/2009 00:18:43 MDT.

One issue that maybe wasn't mentioned, is the fact that when you stuff a wet single wall tent, it ends up getting everything else wet too, mainly the floor.
Its happened to me on numerous occasions, even when it didn't rain, but got wet enough from condensation.

Sure you can wait for it to dry, but under cool damp conditions it would take too long to dry, especially on trips, when you're on the move each day, and don't have time to wait for the shelter to dry.

This is why I'd rather use a tarp and bivy combo, or a Pyramid shelter, or a double wall, over a single wall, with a build-in floor. You can pack the rain-fly, separate from the tent body, just as you would pack your tarp, separate from your bivy. If you have any outer mesh pocket on your pack, you can then store the wet tarp or rain-fly here

I'm not knocking this type of shelter, just saying that they're not the perfect type of shelter for me anymore.

Edited by mfog1 on 07/26/2009 12:07:07 MDT.

Simple MSR towel will work on condensation. If your 'bathtub' floor is holding rain - a little more difficult.

Floorless work well in most conditions unless crawling bugs. I don't like crawling bugs.