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Tarptent vs MSR
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Aaron Lastname
(Cloudveil9) - F
Weight to Space on 07/20/2009 07:20:58 MDT Print View

Single-Wall still walks all over both these tents in weight to square footage ratio...Guess that's another thread...Couldn't help myself. Squall 2 / Rainshadow 2 anyone? Ok, back to double-wall, sorry!

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Re: Re: Discussion on 07/20/2009 13:47:39 MDT Print View

Chris: "I don't expect to setup a tent in the rain but should you ever need to the design of the Scarp allows the inner tent to stay dry. This is not really true for the Hubba Hubba or the Carbon Reflex 2 because you have to setup the inner before the fly."

Fair point, although footprint users can set up the CR2 fly before the body.

Chris: "Scarp offers better usable floor space and better ventilation. Scarp design is more usable for 2 than Carbon Reflex design (extra door). Weight difference is moot when split between 2 people. Square footage is moot, either will work for 2."

I agree with you that the extra floor space is nice. I don't think it's essential but I do understand that it's more comfortable. The ventilation seems moot because neither tent has dripped on you (and BPL did observe heavy condensation in the Scarp 2 fly). I'm not sure 6oz of weight savings (or 3oz per person) is entirely moot....with 6oz of weight savings I could pack along a lot of chocolate which would taste darn good at the end of a long day :)

A major selling feature of the CR2 (for me) is the waterproofing. I'm not referring to the seam sealing, but rather the fly and floor of the tent. Waking up to find water has leaked through the floor could be a real trip wrecker since we're all using down bags etc. I realize SilNylon is pretty much standard in the UL world but I prefer the piece of mind that a 10,000mm waterproof floor offers. I would like two doors, but given the choice between two doors or a 10,000mm floor I think I would take the 10,000mm waterproofing.

With all that said, the Scarp 2 looks like a sick tent. I like the versatility of it.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Discussion on 07/20/2009 14:12:28 MDT Print View

When you're at a 6-7 lb base weight, 3 ounces doesn't matter much anymore. That's what I was trying to say anyway.

As to the waterproofing, that would only come in to play if you camped in a flood plain or in a hole when it's raining. If you use careful site selection you should never need anything more waterproof than sil.

Tim Testa
(MichaelRedbeard) - F
Extra one for sale... on 07/20/2009 16:42:37 MDT Print View

I bought an extra one to post on Ebay for $399.99 so I could have some money to buy a membership on here. Rather than selling it on Ebay, if youd like Id be willing to sell it to you for $374.99 and include free shipping with delivery confirmation. After I pay for shipping and lose out on Paypal fees, I should be able to make a $25 profit out of it...just enough for the membership. Its up to you, I get a membership and you get a tent for 25% off the retail price =)

Edited by MichaelRedbeard on 07/20/2009 16:43:24 MDT.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Vaude Scutum Ultralight on 07/21/2009 03:00:15 MDT Print View

Anyone else see the details on the new Vaude Scutum Ultralight tent just announced at the outdoor retailer show? This tent sounds too good to be true.

It's a double wall 2 person tent that has a 10,000mm waterproof floor and it weighs a shocking 1050g (37oz)! I don't know how they did that without SilNylon or Carbon Fibre. From the pictures (at http://lighthiker.wordpress.com/) it appears roomy inside. I think it's just a single side door like the CR2.

It actually sounds a lot like the CR2 except it uses aluminum poles yet weighs a lot less....hmm....I wonder if someone can verify the weight.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Vaude Scutum Ultralight on 07/21/2009 10:38:26 MDT Print View

The Vaude Scrotum Ultralight sounds like a great shelter for gear nuts...

Edited by jshann on 07/21/2009 21:47:06 MDT.

Aaron Lastname
(Cloudveil9) - F
Vaude Tent on 07/21/2009 11:06:49 MDT Print View

Lol

Matthew Swierkowski
(Berserker) - F

Locale: Southeast
Seam Sealing on 07/21/2009 11:38:56 MDT Print View

I stayed out of the seam sealing debate on WB, but now it's popped up here so I gotta jump in and have a little fun.

What's the big deal with seam sealing? I seam sealed a Double Rainbow in maybe an hour (or slightly less...or maybe it took longer...can't remember), and it cost me <$10 (the cost of a tube of silicone sealant and some low odor mineral spirits from Lowes). It's not a big deal to do it. You set up the tent, you seal it, and then you leave it sit there for a little while to dry. Plus, some of the cottage gear manufacturers like Tarptent will do it for an extra $20.

Is it the semantics that one is being charged an extra $20 for the seam sealing that is torquing everyone off? You'd rather pay $250 for a seam sealed tent than $230 for a non-seam sealed one, and not have the option to get it without the seams sealed? Apparently the option to get one without the seams sealed "is fightin words" as they say in the South.

Ok, that was my rant...sorry for getting off topic.

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Tarptent vs MSR on 07/21/2009 11:57:33 MDT Print View

I never knew seam-sealing could arouse so much emotion. This is almost as bad as a gun thread. I know......what kind of gun do you guys use to seam seal?

David Stapleton
(KamperDave) - F

Locale: VA, DC, MD
Re: Tarptent vs MSR on 07/21/2009 11:59:18 MDT Print View

Glue gun??? :-)

William Puckett
(Beep) - F

Locale: Land of 11, 842 lakes
Re: Tarptent vs MSR on 07/21/2009 12:12:19 MDT Print View

For my seam sealing I used a small disposable foam "paint brush" (the smallest I could find). Having the tent set up with a good taut pitch makes it easier to brush on.

The silicone caulk/mineral spirits mixture paints on easily and needs to be sufficiently thinned/liquid to penetrate the thread and sewing "holes".

Edited by Beep on 07/21/2009 12:13:29 MDT.

Aaron Lastname
(Cloudveil9) - F
Sealing on 07/21/2009 12:22:28 MDT Print View

Are you trying to say I can't use a glue-gun and have to use a brush to seam seal my own shelter in the privacy of my own home? What rights do I have left???

Edited by Cloudveil9 on 07/21/2009 12:23:57 MDT.

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Tent Pricing: MSRP vs. actual on 07/21/2009 12:37:25 MDT Print View

Dan wrote: "I don't really see price as being a factor here. Sure the CR2 has a $500 MSRP vs. $325 but you can great deals on the CR2 since it's from a major manufacturer whereas you normally need to pay full retail for the Scarp 2."

I don't own the MSR or a TarpTent, but the notion that going with a major manufacturer gives you the chance to find a great deal is kinda dubious. If MSR (or any other major manufacturer) really intends to sell the tent for $300-something, but advertises a MSRP of $500, the $300-something price isn't a "great deal" so much as the $500 price is an outrageous gouge.

If, on the other hand, the major manufacturer is allowing large outdoor retailers to sell some tents at a loss, this is unethical business practice prob. intended to drive cottage gear makers and mom-and-pop retailers out of business.

Buying last year's model on closeout might be a genuine great deal, except that the planned obsolescence built into a system of new models every year seems at odds with the philosophical underpinnings of low impact and going light.

Cottage makers seem much less likely to indulge in these sketchy business practices--when I need a new tent I'll be trying to buy from one of them.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Re: Tent Pricing: MSRP vs. actual on 07/21/2009 21:39:20 MDT Print View

David: "don't own the MSR or a TarpTent, but the notion that going with a major manufacturer gives you the chance to find a great deal is kinda dubious. If MSR (or any other major manufacturer) really intends to sell the tent for $300-something, but advertises a MSRP of $500, the $300-something price isn't a "great deal" so much as the $500 price is an outrageous gouge."

I don't think either scenario you suggest is correct. The $500 price is not a gouge, nor are they inflating the MSRP to make $300 seem cheap.

The simply reality is that a major manufacturer sells a lot more tents and they sell them through a lot more avenues, so there is a better chance of finding a deal. This means that you have a much better chance of finding one on eBay (Have you ever seen a TarpTent on eBay?) or on a website that is having a huge sale. I got mine on eBay and several others have gotten theirs for cheap through promotions at gear websites. You cannot get a tarp tent through these same promotions because most stores don't sell TT.

It is possible to get a deal on a TT (ie. BPL gear swap thread) but much harder to find and because the supply is so limited the price is rarely much lower than MSRP.

Edited by dandydan on 07/21/2009 21:40:26 MDT.

Jay Campbell
(gohawks) - F

Locale: SE Iowa
Re: Seam Sealing on 07/21/2009 22:02:55 MDT Print View

It wasn't a big deal to me, until I couldn't get it right. I was never able to make the shelter water tight.

I guess I could have paid to have it done and in retrospect I may have done so.

Here is why. If you buy a shelter from a large manufacturer w/taped seams and the shelter fails to be watertight who is liable? It is obviously a warranty issue for that manufacturer to resolve.

For a greenhorn like me who bought a shelter from a cottage industry and was unable to make it watertight. Who was responsible for that issue? ME. Even when I attepmted in good faith to try and remedy the situation.

Is the liability for the shelter to be waterproof now on the maker if they seam seal it and charge for it? That would be a good question and maybe they can chime in with the answer. I would think if you pay them to do the job it would be reasonable to expect they make the shelter water tight.

I understand the economics and logistics behind seam sealing a silnylon product and I'm not blaming tarptent, smd, or whoever for not doing it. It is what it is. But for a newb like myself it was frustrating to drop that kind of cash and not be able to make it waterproof (god knows I tried).

Just food for thought. I know the vast majority had no issue with the seam sealing. I did, and was unable to fully resolve it even after going over soom of the seams a half a dozen times. Luckily the retailer I bought it from agreed to take it back. Sucks though. The Rainbow was a very cool shelter and fit my needs perfectly (if I could have made it water tight, lol)

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
VERSATILITY! on 07/21/2009 22:37:33 MDT Print View

The Scarp 2, having the options of either a netting inner tent or a ripstop inner has more seasonal versatity. For my purposes (winter camping) I'll get the ripstop inner tent and maybe add snap-on snow flaps on the hems of the fly near the door/vestibule area. I need that extra floor space for 3 people in winter with our heavy bags and clothing. Plus we can set our boot shells in our OWN vestibule and drag snow in on our OWN side, not our tentmate's.

The CR2 is ONLY a 3 season tent at best. Ya takes yer choices and ya pays yer money. Both tents are excellent quality. If I REALLY want carbon fiber poles for the Scarp 2 there is a company that will be happy to custom make them for me - at a price.

Eric

Edited by Danepacker on 07/21/2009 22:42:55 MDT.

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Tent Pricing: MSRP vs. actual on 07/22/2009 11:05:56 MDT Print View

Dan,
Yeah, "outrageous gouge" is prob. too strong a phrase, and I didn't consider that more tents sold equals more tents available to be sold as used--that's a good point. I'm certainly not down on MSR in particular (I especially like that Cascade Designs continues to make a lot of products in the US), or major manufacturers in general, I'm just annoyed with some aspects of their pricing systems (which are hardly unique).

I still say if a new, current model tent can be sold by a retailer for $150 off MSRP, and both retailer and manufacturer can make money at the lower price, that represents a system built more on marketing hype than setting a fair price based on cost of materials, manufacturing and decent profit margin and sticking to it (which is what cottage makers seem to be doing). In that sense, comparing the pricing of the two products is apples and oranges--TT pricing *is* the price, whereas a major manufacturer's MSRP isn't something they really expect too many people to pay, thus must be inflated in some way.

Moreover, comparing the performance of products from cottage makers and majors doesn't seem to indicate that similar performance can usually be had for less money (in terms of actual prices paid) when buying new gear made by a major manufacturer. For example, from my limited research it looks like I could get a cottage gear tent (TT or other) that is functionally equivalent to my BA Seedhouse SL2 (but lighter, and better in other ways) for the same price or even a bit less. I was given the Seedhouse, so this isn't buyer's remorse talking, but that a highly specialized, made in the US product sells for the same price as a mass market, made in China item indicates two different approaches to pricing, at the very least.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Markup on 07/22/2009 12:12:12 MDT Print View

I imagine that MSR uses standard retail mark up in their pricing which is a 100% markup. So shops likely buy the CR2 for about $250 and then try to sell them for close to $500 so they can cover their costs and make a fair profit. Based on this, you can see how a shop could sell the tent for $300 - $350 without losing money on the tent, but they can't do this normally or they wouldn't be covering their other costs like rent, utilities, staff, shipping, advertising etc. This is why you sometimes see a CR2 for $300-$350 (ie. a shop orders too many and just wants to get rid of them without losing money) but $500 is still a 'fair' price (or at least close to it).

Brett Peugh
(bpeugh) - F - M

Locale: Midwest
Space on 07/22/2009 12:55:31 MDT Print View

I would very much disagree with people's assessment of space on the CR2 versus the Scarp 2. Yes, a 6' person might fit into the CR2 but by the looks of it they would be touching both ends as those slopes are pretty low while in the Scarp 2 you pretty much have the whole floor space.

And after seam sealing a few tents over the years I will be more than happy at any time to pay someone else to do it.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Re: Space on 07/22/2009 13:20:48 MDT Print View

Brett: "a 6' person might fit into the CR2 but by the looks of it they would be touching both ends as those slopes are pretty low while in the Scarp 2 you pretty much have the whole floor space."

Be careful arguing something like this when you've never seen the tent in person and you're arguing against people who own it. The CR2 has a full 7 feet of length so it's quite generous in this regard. I'm 6'0" and I have enough length that I sleep with my dog at my feet off the end of my full length sleeping pad. There's no way you could have your head and sleeping bag footbox both touching the ends of the tent.

Edited by dandydan on 07/22/2009 13:25:14 MDT.