Trying not to laugh condescendingly at the doctor hate- especially when critics use words like "retarded." Ha! I mean- how old are you, Robert? When reading your other posts you don't come across as some juvenile d00d. :-) Plus, you mention having a problem for "decades."

Tim,

Well, it looks like you've pretty much decided to join. I think it's the right choice. This is THE best hiking website that I have ever found, and I signed up immediately. If nothing else, the gear reviewers put all others to shame. As mentioned before several have PhDs or are engineers. And it shows.

Evan,

For what it's worth I have hacker-ish sympathies, so I follow you on the "information should be free" ethos. I'm not absolutist about it, though. Heck, I have a security clearance! And, the fact that you can post here and read many articles for free actually shows that the BPL gurus sort of agree with you. You are free to look up all the "d00dz this pack rockz ur world" (no punctuation or caps) reviews that you care to. I'm willing to pay for quality- i.e. this site- if someone has put some effort into it, as they have.

For the record, it is the ONLY website that I pay to access. For whatever that's worth.

For someone just getting into UL (which was me just a few years ago) I think BPL is INDISPENSABLE. If someone is serious about getting lighter I don't think they could make a better investment than a subscription. I just did it, after all. You do make a biting point, Evan: Yes, backpacking is about actually getting outside and backpacking, but educating yourself on ANY subject helps, and BPL is the best web-based backpacking education in existance, IMNSHO. Education is especially relevent in cutting-edge disciplines which, arguably, includes UL backpacking.

Edited by acrosome on 06/24/2009 04:16:29 MDT.

Actually, I would recommend that people first purchase the BPL book, or even Ray Jardine's book or an equivalent, before getting a membership here. There is excellent advice and materials on this site, but it is presented in a disorganized, jumbled manner (like most all forum-based sites are). By reading something like Beyond Backpacking, while controversial at times, gives you the big picture, introduces you to certain lightweight philosophy, and most important, presents things in a clear, organized manner.

By having read a full book first, I am able to compare and contrast the gear, technique, and reviews that BPL produces. I am able to better understand the various comfort levels of various posters' gear choices. I think if I had come to BPL first, I wouldn't even know what articles to look for.

But of curse the problem with books is that they are outdated as soon as they are published. That's where BPL comes in so handy; it gives us the most up-to-date information.

Think of how most interest groups operate; you get your periodic journal for up-to-date info, but you are expected to have read whatever standard textbooks exist in that field. While it is true that you do not have to get a degree to understand how to backpack, if you want an ultralight system using the latest technologies and techniques, you do have to become better informed about the safety and risks presented by your gear choices and philosophy.

Personally, I'm really glad BPL is online and not in magazine form. Most magazines have succumbed to sound-byte bits of info, flashy images, and more ads due to higher operating costs. Online there is space for in-depth articles. Plus, there is no interaction from magazines. On BPL, most any article is commented on, questions can be asked, etc.

Edited by jcarter1 on 06/24/2009 10:33:57 MDT.

I'm not absolutist about information being free. I was not using the hacker creed 'information wants to be free'. However, I do think 'intellectual property' has been taken to an extreme in this country.

I'm happy to contribute a few dollars towards this site. The combined knowledge is more than worth it.
For folk that post on here regularly to advise against membership, makes me wonder if a bit of trolling isn't going on?

Edited by MikefaeDundee on 06/24/2009 10:47:34 MDT.

It's not trolling when the original poster asked why it would be worth it to sign up. I gave my opinion on why it wasn't worth it for me. Obviously I am in the minority being the sole person in opposition. This doesn't make me a troll.

I cruised these pages for something like 6 months before joining. Haven't looked back since. Forums are really great and stacked with information.

You'll know when you are ready.

> But of curse [sic] the problem with books is that they are outdated as soon as they are published. That's where BPL comes in so handy; it gives us the most up-to-date information.

I agree- a decent baseline understanding is very helpful in getting the most out of this site. But honestly, by my standards there aren't many good books out there. I'll readily recommend the BPL book, "Lightweight Backpacking and Camping." Ryan's book is what opened my eyes. It is, as you mentioned, a bit dated (2005?). The general information isn't dated, mind you, just some of the specific gear it occasionally mentions. Some of it is no longer made, or the model has changed significantly, etc. You can then come here to research your 'perfect' tarp, if you like, once you have the essentials down. I had never found such a comprehensive discussion of the technical aspects of hiking: the mechanics of walking, a discussion of the modern 'miracle' waterproof-breathable fabrics, etc. So many hiking books are crammed with a lot of philosophy, but little substance. (Probably because so many hiking books are written by- pardon- "hippies.") I have no problem with philosophy, mind you, but I already know why I hike. I don't need someone else to explain their reasons to me.

This website, and hopefully some day the wiki, fills in with updates, current developments, etc. I really hope the wiki takes off more. Having an updated source for all the various trade names of those 'miracle' fabrics that tells you what they actually are would be nice, for instance. It is so hard to filter through the advertising B.S. sometimes, and it just gets tiring. And, it NEVER sways my purchasing decision- DATA does.

Edited by acrosome on 06/24/2009 13:05:21 MDT.

Sorry Evan.
Maybe trolling is too strong. I just find your attitude strange. You post on this forum, yet say it isn't worth a few dollars for membership. That confuses me, as you are basically saying i'm stupid.

> "d00dz this pack rockz ur world"

I'm in agreement with Dean on this one. There are plenty of free articles released by the multitudes of bloggers out there. However these tend to be heavy on the subjectivity and light on the objectivity.

Evan, although receiving a fair bit of flack for his contributions to this thread pointed out something to me that has gone unnoticed since we ended the Backpacking Light print publication last winter.

You'll notice the "Advertise with Us" link that he referred to has been removed from the Web site as it was a relic of advertising in our print magazine. We have absolutely no intention of advertising on backpackinglight.com other than the advertising related to our own Gear Shop and the promotion of new and upcoming editorial content.

I guess I'm a bit of a retro-grouch, but I've never known information (as opposed to opinion) to be free. Back in the day when people used libraries, books could be checked out no charge. But were they free? Heck no! Your taxes paid for them. If you wanted to be up-to-date with current events, you bought a newspaper. The blogs that are so popular only masquerade as journalism, so I still buy the paper. The best things in life are sometimes not free, and that includes paying for a forest pass so I can hike into the areas I enjoy. Happy trails!

I just signed up for membership on here the other day after spending some time reading this site. I think it's the best "advanced" backpacking site I've seen and have learned a lot reading the forums and free articles. Because the level is so high I thought it was worth getting the membership for access to the articles. Once you get interested in lightweight shelters and skills it seems well worth a few bucks to get all the info, which is otherwise hard to find.

WHAT! A fee to hike on a trail?!? Thats ridiculious!!! I will never pay a fee to hike somewhere. If they are charging people to maintain the trail because government taxes arent enough, then Id gladly do volunteer work, but the day will never come where I will pay to walk outside in the nature. That really infuriates me! Seriously, I want to go to wherever this trail is and walk it for free just to say I did so. Really though, if a day like this ever comes where I am confronted by a ranger on matters, then he or she better have a tazor on them and be prepared to convult me to the ground. I know that sounds immature, but what you said really fueled my fire!

Edited by MichaelRedbeard on 06/24/2009 16:46:39 MDT.

"Sorry Evan.
Maybe trolling is too strong. I just find your attitude strange. You post on this forum, yet say it isn't worth a few dollars for membership. That confuses me, as you are basically saying i'm stupid."

Well, the forum is free. Why would I pay for it?

I don't think you are stupid. The membership just doesn't provide value to me so I don't have it.

Glad to see that the advertising link was a relic. Good to know that impartiality is important.

Unfortunately Monty the newspapers that are so popular only masquerade as journalism as well.

"In my experience, your average GP's advice is not worth much unless you know what you need (say you just want a prescription written). Most medical doctors are notorious for basing their advice on anecdotal and pharmaceutically motivated critria rather than evidence based. If I were you, I would read up before you head to your doctor for advice!"

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting the medical profession with, Lynn.

"That's a pretty broad brush you're painting the medical profession with, Lynn."

Probably with good reason. And I'm not painting the whole profession, just GPs who are such generalists by nature that they often aren't very good or don't have time (15 minute time slots!) to put in a lot of 'research' on behalf of an individual patient. Even more than researching UL packing, I would encourage folks to research matters concerning their own health so they at least have some idea of what to ask when they visit their GP.

This thread gave me some pause to consider why I am willing to pay for membership. While there is value-added for me in gaining access to the members-only content, the real value is in providing the BPL powers-that-be with some tangible financial reward to keep doing what they are doing. The presence of a global community sharing information and opinions is not without costs.

I choose to support with my time (and posts) and a bit of money the community of light(er) backpackers without the heavy-handed influence of big-time advertising. By subscribing, I'm taking an extra step to better insure the survival and prosperity of the BPL on-line community. If the owners/managers of this operation can make a profit, then I'm happy for them.

"Probably with good reason. And I'm not painting the whole profession, just GPs who are such generalists by nature that they often aren't very good or don't have time (15 minute time slots!) to put in a lot of 'research' on behalf of an individual patient."

The function of a GP is to be general, Lynn. They aren't called "gate keepers" by accident. 4 years of medical school plus a residency is adequate time and exposure to the real deal to hone their diagnostic skills, prepare them to handle basic health problems, evaluate a person's general health,and recognize when there is something going on that requires a specialist. The 15 minute slot/patient is another question entirely. That's what happens when the "bean counters" and MBA's run medicine. It doesn't allow enough time for even a good physician to catch everything, and mistakes of omission and commission do get made. But to say they are all in the hip pocket of the pharmaceutical industry or rely on "anecdotal" information is, IMO, way over the top. I've known far too many talented, conscientious physicians to buy into that. They take the ancient oath, "primum non nocere" very seriously, and we're darn lucky they do. That said, there turkeys as well, and your point about being informed is well taken. My 2 cents. :)

"The 15 minute slot/patient is another question entirely. That's what happens when the "bean counters" and MBA's run medicine. It doesn't allow enough time for even a good physician to catch everything, and mistakes of omission and commission do get made."

This is the main 'problem' with GPs, and I'm not saying it's their fault, just that that's the way it is. Same could be said of many reader reviews (I'm guilty of this too). Because I'm not paid to write gear reviews, I don't put a lot of time and comparative study into my reviews. I have more pressing things to do with my time.

"to say they are all in the hip pocket of the pharmaceutical industry or rely on "anecdotal" information is, IMO, way over the top. I've known far too many talented, conscientious physicians to buy into that."

I've taught too many med students (more to the point I've seen the teaching curriculum that many of my teaching colleaugues put forth as curriculum) to believe otherwise. Again, it's not the student's fault. Most of them are VERY talented and motivated. It's just that a lot of traditional western medical teaching is based on empirical data rather than evidence based. And a lot of the pharmaceutical "evidence based" info is so totally skewed and mis-represented that the poor students don't have a hope of sorting out truth from mis-truth. It's not the doctors that are bad, just the system they are raised in. I think with the information age that this is changing rapidly, and the new crop of med students will hopefully come out more well rounded and with a decent back ground in assessing the merits of information put in front of them as the *gospel* for what it really is. It is only very recently that Evidence Based medicine (EBM) has been formally adopted into most med schools.

Here's an example of what I mean:

To ascertain general practitioners (GPs) views about evidence-based medicine (EBM), perceived barriers and preferred resources to support evidence-based general practice; to assess GPs familiarity with technical terms commonly used in EBM. METHODS: We developed a self-administered questionnaire from an existing instrument. A random sample of GPs completed the questionnaire at the commencement of a trial to improve preventive care. RESULTS: Sixty GPs (100%) participating in our trial returned the questionnaire. The most commonly cited barrier to EBM in general practice was patient demand for treatment despite lack of evidence for effectiveness (45%), followed by lack of time to read and appraise research articles (40%), lack of time to search for evidence (28%) and lack of time to discuss the implications of research findings with patients during routine consultations (25%). Fewer respondents cited insufficient skills in appraising evidence (16%), searching for evidence (12%) or communicating the implications of research to patients (5%). Preferred resources for EBM included clinical practice guidelines (rated as very useful= by 55%) and journals that summarise research evidence, for example Evidence-based Medicine (52%). Systematic reviews were considered very useful by only 15% of respondents however. Unexpectedly, 30% of respondents indicated that they did not understand the term “systematic review” and 43% did not understand “meta-analysis”. Only about one quarter of respondents indicated they fully understood the terms “relative risk” (23%) and “absolute risk” (28%) and could explain these terms to others. In comparison, only 15% of respondents indicated they had the same level of understanding of “number needed to treat”. Even fewer respondents (12%) indicated they fully understood the term “levels of evidence”. CONCLUSIONS: Barriers to EBM in general practice were perceived to be related to time rather than skills. However, GPs lack of familiarity with technical terms commonly used in EBM suggests lack of training. Skills development will be important to strengthen an evidence-based approach in general practice. If methodological research supports the validity of self-assessment of understanding of EBM terms, this measure could be used to evaluate the impact of educational strategies.


A lot of BPL articles lean towards an evidence based approach, especially when compared to other sites and reader reviews. To me, that alone is worth the price of admission.

Oh, and a big hug to all those GPs that do incorporate a good dose of evidenced based medicine into their practice. I know they're out there, they're just not yet the mainstream (and may never become mainstream if HMOs take over the world). It does take extra time and effort, and they should be rewarded (financially) for aquiring and disseminating that knowledge to their patients, just as BPL deserves to be rewarded financially for paying experts in their fields for doing high quality research and publishing it. However, there are always folks like evan who just don't value that info enough to want to contribute to it. And that's what a free-market is all about. Non-members are pretty lucky on this forum. Many exclusive forums don't even allow non-members to read forum posts, much less contribute.