Most storms that would do real damage to a Rainbow would be thing you would typically see coming, and therefore would want to be camping low anyway.

In my experience in the alpine regions of the mountains here in Japan and in Europe, there were quite a few times when one moment it was a beautiful, quiet, sunny day, the next (like twenty minutes later) it was a raging storm where you could barely stand up. Such places are notoriously unpredictable and if you are going to be in exposed areas I would definitely make sure my shelter can handle the situation. People with experience can probably find good protection from the wind and rain (and sometimes snow) even in exposed areas, and so can opt for a tarp, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

The Rainbow is a good tent and I've used it in alpine conditions, including storms, but it is not built to take really fierce storms. Sure, it might still be standing in the morning, but you will have had a very rough night.

"Sure, it might still be standing in the morning, but you will have had a very rough night."

Well said. We have 'survived' a gale force heavy rain storm in a Double Rainbow, but we didn't get ANY sleep :(

Don't know that I would have slept any better in a solid 4 season tent though?

Short of the the Scarp, a Tarptent for exposed, windy conditions is a horrible choice. Doable, but not nearly ideal.

As far as stretching legs in a bivy, the Unishelter is 98" long. No issue stretching in that one.

> Most storms that would do real damage to a Rainbow would be thing you would typically
> see coming, and therefore would want to be camping low anyway.

Oh, we can see the storms coming, with about 30 minutes notice. But it is a LONG way down to sheltered terrain! Not a realistic option for us. As Lynn said, sometimes you don't get a real lot of sleep, even in a good tent!

Cheers

Your requirements:
1. good for exposed conditions (i.e. no trees to tie into, likely solid rock to set up on)
2. no walking sticks for supports
3. light weight

You need a self supported tent - period.

Get a TarpTent Scarp 1 W/ the net body.
For winter use their optional carbon fiber crossing poles and optional ripstop interior body. That's as "BOMPROOF' as its gonna get.

Eric
UPDATE: Well Roger, you're keerect - I meant "bombproof" in terms of winds up to 50 mph/80 kmh. After that you'd need a true 4 season mountaineering tent with all tyouts used.

Edited by Danepacker on 06/23/2009 13:58:14 MDT.

Thanks for all of the advice, The Scarp 1 does look like a nice option, with the vertical ends it should offer more usable space then my current tent (Exped Vela 1 Extreme) and is even slightly lighter.

Although the bivy bags are lighter still, and probably slightly warmer then the tents.

> Get a TarpTent Scarp 1 W/ the net body.
> For winter use their optional carbon fiber crossing poles and optional ripstop interior
> body. That's as "BOMPROOF' as its gonna get.

That's still not really what I would call 'bombproof' though. Maybe I am allowing for slightly larger bombs?

Cheers

Thomas,

This seems to fit your requirements. And given your consideration of bivy bag type tents, the low roof probably would be an acceptable compromise.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=21622&skip_to_post=174473#174473

I have three ID bivies, several tarps, two Hilleberg tents including a Soulo and other tents; for this type of situation, I carry an Integral Designs Mega Sola and it is THE easiest to erect quickly, most bombproof and spacious shelter I know of. Headroom is a bit restrictive, but, you get used to that and the comfort in severe weather makes up for it.

I have owned/used a LOT of highend gear and I.D. consistently makes among the finest I have ever used, this shelter WILL keep you safe, dry and warm in ANY storm you will ever encounter. I solo trek in wilderness B.C. and if it works here, it will work anywhere.

Lynn,

Were you using trekking poles in the apex pole grommets during this storm? I don't doubt that you were kept up all night; I ask because it seems most of the reviews of the Rainbow in storms are with the 1st gen model without using trekking poles; so you get reviews of the shelter being blown down onto people's faces and such. I understand that the original poster will not be using trekking poles, in which case a Scarp might be the better option. But I'm still looking for trip reports of Rainbow users in high winds that used trekking poles in the apex grommets.

I'd still like to see a Rainbow and DuoMid side-by-side in high winds. Ryan Jordan recently posted on his blog a trip where one of the pyramid tarp poles snapped. There are several other snaps documented at BPL. I would think having two trekking poles plus arch pole in the Rainbow would better distribute the force on the poles. Then again, the DuoMid goes completely to the ground on all four sides, and one could always use two trekking poles in the DuoMid for reinforcement. So I'm still up in the air between the two tents in terms of wind stability.

Edited by jcarter1 on 06/18/2009 12:40:01 MDT.

>That's not the only cause [of wind]. One night in the mountains our tent was hit from
>*all four directions* at 10 minute intervals. The wind was swirling around something fierce.
>The idea of trying to pitch a tarp to handle those conditions ... it would have taken off.


That reminds me of when we were in a Hilleberg Keron (A fairly bombproof tent) in a fierce windstorm (with clear skies) on Rainier that introduced me to the 5th wind direction, which is straight down on top of the tent. The only thing that I can figure is that since we were on a relatively narrow exposed ridge, the wind must have come up the sides of the valley walls and created down-draft turbulence. 2/3 tent poles snapped during the night, which Petra & Bo at Hilleberg couldn't believe. It is the only time I have experienced boulders which I could scarcely move being dragged by the guy lines (nice craftsmanship on those guy-out points, Bo!) during sustained 'gusts.'

It occurred to me afterward, that had I been in a stout pyramid-type shelter, we probably would have fared somewhat better. Hilleberg is a great family company and they courteously replaced the tent (since the sleeves + fly had been lacerated) and upgraded the poles to 10mm for us.

I have also used a Mt. Hardwear Kiva with good results on that mountain and others, but the conditions of that night were one's I doubt I'll run into again.

As for this thread, the BD BetaLight comes to mind as well. I recently purchased one for solo or 2 person trips since I prefer to camp in exposed areas for the vistas (and gear testing opportunites, eh. ;)

The Scarp 1 I've no doubt is a great tent, but make sure you know that it doesn't pitch with a ground-level fly.

I wonder how the SMD Wild Oasis would fare in an exposed pitch. Anyone used one in a storm or above tree-line?

Edited by biointegra on 06/19/2009 00:38:25 MDT.

> 5th wind direction, which is straight down on top of the tent. The only thing that I can figure is that since we were on a relatively narrow exposed ridge, the wind must have come up the sides of the valley walls and created down-draft turbulence.

Very strong downdrafts can occur around the outside of storm sytems. Warm air is sucked up at the centre and cold air comes down the outside to replace it.

> It occurred to me afterward, that had I been in a stout pyramid-type shelter, we probably would have fared somewhat better.

I love my Hex3 / Shangri la

> I wonder how the SMD Wild Oasis would fare in an exposed pitch. Anyone used one in a storm or above tree-line?

Kath and I were caught in strong winds and rain on a hillside in our Gatewood gape in late April in Sardinia. It did pretty well and kept us dry. If it was hit by a big downdraught I would hope the plastic buckles connecting the pole harness to the collar of the cape would fail before the material. The reinforced 'cup' in the hex3 seems a better proposition. There was a comment about the easton aluminium pole of the hex getting bent in a big gust on here a while ago. I've now made a 3 section pole from 3 stiff grade carbon fibre golf club shafts. I need to epoxy some alloy rings onto these to prevent a downdraught forcing the tapered sections and splitting them where they join. Timely reminder, thanks.

> the 5th wind direction, which is straight down on top of the ten

Oh yeah, sigh!
We were pitched under a very steep bank which was meant to block the wind. Well, it did - until a really strong gust caused a vortex to come hammering down on top of us. Not once, but many times.

We spent the rest of the night holding the tent up every time we heard the wind howl. It was not a restful night. However, the storm cleared by morning.

Cheers

OP, I know where you are coming from. I also am tall and have found the options for more robust shelters to be less than adequate let alone for ones not using trekking poles.

I would love to get a bivy for the bad conditions but then I would have to get another shelter for the good conditions as I can't use a bivy above 75F and it is that warm around here for 3 months or better. That and I don't want to spend $300 on a limited shelter.

Personally I don't cook, read or do anything else in a shelter as I have a long torso and such things just are not comfortable. I only do two things in a shelter, sleep and nap.

So here is where I am going. I am going to remake a homemade bivy so that I have a silnylon 1.3oz floor and sides with a full mesh top. I will have the silnylon probably come up about 9 inches from the bottom of the feet and the top of the head. This is great for warm temps and bugs. I don't know why anyone doesn't make this. You can just put a piece of thin bendable wire in like Integral Designs used to do to keep the netting off your face. I then am going to attach two Momentum panels, one for the body and one for the head, along one of the long sides so they can flop over and attach with some small velcro to the other side incase it gets windy out or for light rain. Something like that would probably cost you about $65 to make.

For the storms I have just been using my long poncho/tarp that I picked up at Campmor for $23. It is decent rain gear paired with a Momentum wind shirt. I usually just stake one of the short ends down and stake the other ends down once I am in the bivy under it. Find a foot and a half long stick to prop it up by your head and you are done. You can also wrap it under yourself when you are on a hard surface.

John, now that you mentioned it, the first time we experienced the "5th wind direction" was in the original DR. This was a very bad time indeed, as the vestibules kept blowing open (no zippers), the upper vents could not be closed off, and the tent pole completely collapsed once before we decided to spend the rest of the night with our feet prooping up the centre pole. As I say, not very restful. The second time we survived these conditions was after Henry had post-fitted all those extras, plus we learned to cross stake the vestibule on the windward side to take all the slack out of the fabric, and dig small holes for the pole ends to sink into. So if no trekking poles, I think the DR is not a good option.

If we *think* the conditions are gonna be that bad, we will just stay home, go somewhere that has a hut, or take the Nallo2. But even a Nallo 2 would not be up to the 5th wind direction without foot bracing...of course I'm talking about tents for two people. If it's just you, maybe one of the smaller Hillebergs would be the way to go?

I have had my Akto in some pretty scary winds and stayed nice and warm and cocooned. Of course, I couldn't sit up comfortably but.....laying down was certainly long enough.

"I'd still like to see a Rainbow and DuoMid side-by-side in high winds. Ryan Jordan recently posted on his blog a trip where one of the pyramid tarp poles snapped"

This was a carbon-fiber pole. There are plenty of users on this site which would not trust carbon fiber as a main support in a four-season tent due to the more dramatic deflection they undergo under severe loading. The failure mode is also much more undesirable...breakage due to the brittle nature of CF vs. bending due to the ductile nature of aluminum.

A center pole in a pyramid shelter during a storm is under just about every type of stress possible so you put your materials to the test and stress-strain curves become more important.

Also it can be tougher to set up some pyramids with a carbon fiber trekking pole (since many are not adjustable poles) as you really need to be able to adjust the peak height to control the amount of protection/ventilation available.

I've had great experiences so far in high winds (both in the backcountry and 30-40mph in my backyard measured with an anemometer) with my Duomid...nice having no flat surfaces for the wind to hit head-on.

Jonathan,

How does the DuoMid handle the East TN humidity for you and what strategies do you employ for dealing with condensation while keeping the Anopheles at bay?

> There are plenty of users on this site which would not trust carbon fiber as a
> main support in a four-season tent

My winter tents and my summer tents both have carbon fibre poles. Used properly they work great, even in very severe storms.

> The failure mode is also much more undesirable...breakage due to the brittle nature
> of CF vs. bending due to the ductile nature of aluminum.
Actually, repair of a snapped CF pole can be much easier to do than repair of a bent Al pole. You can sleeve a snapped CF pole very easily; you can't sleeve a bent Al pole due to the flattening out. Been there, done both.

Cheers

>My winter tents and my summer tents both have carbon fibre >poles. Used properly they work great, even in very severe >storms.

Yes, but as far as I have seen you sleeve all of your poles into the tent body which is much different than having an exposed single pole attached only to the peak of the shelter. Also, your tents don't rely on bent CF in rounded corners as many dome tents do. I would think your design would maximize the properties of CF while minimizing the risk of breakage. I just don't see this translating well into an unsleeved single pole pyramid situation.


>Actually, repair of a snapped CF pole can be much easier >to do than repair of a bent Al pole. You can sleeve a >snapped CF pole very easily; you can't sleeve a bent Al >pole due to the flattening out. Been there, done both.

No argument there, but what I was referring to as far as failure is that the failure of CF is catastrophic and instantaneous, whereas with Al, it is that long tail of ductility which allows for deformation without breakage. I have had a couple of situations with dome tents in the White Mountains of Hew Hampshire where severe winds bent Al poles, but I could see the failure begin and add guys to mitigate the damage. With CF, it would have given no warning and failed straightaway. I would submit that the failure mode of CF does not lend itself well to winter storms where shelter collapse without warning can be such an issue...not that any failure is good in that situation, but I just see Al as more predictable.

That said, I certainly recognize your expertise, Roger, being a tentmaker and one who has made his OWN CF poles. And maybe it is your correct use of the material that has given you such good success. Many others on this site have struggled with CF...see this thread specifically about Fibraplex:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=14192