the comment about the ak-47 is pretty funny... ak with 20 rounds ( not the 40rd clips you always see) weighs 14 lbs... my 3 day pack 17 :) my point... I dont think people are going to be openly walking around with automatic people killers... and if they do, i bet it wont be far...

personally I'd feel better on a solo hike with a small pistol...

and It's ludicrous to think criminals pay attention to gun laws... only law abiding citizens do, and care about them...

Jay, sorry i couldn't make it on that day hike, hope you guys had fun, and stayed hydrated!

Joshua Gilbert, I'm a 26 year old white male, live in Oakland California, so i know all about urban violence, but that has little to do with our gun laws... kids out here arn't breaking into houses getting ak's tech 9's and all that, they're guns come from huge suppliers, which is a whole other problem, gun problems stem from lack of real law enforcement against true criminals... 5 year mandatory minimum for an unlicensed gun in this state? NO ONE serves that, not even second offenders, criminals know that, and thats why i hear gun fire all the time, read about senseless homicides, im used to it... pretty bad huh? even with all of our absurd gun laws here in California, I don't have to go to Iraq to be in a war zone... so are they working? hmmm, no... thats part of the reason I have a gun, because the police have no control where I am...

I also think they should make bullets more traceable AND A LOT HARDER TO GET!

So in summation, I guess its up to the owner of the gun to be safe and responsible, and the community and police to enforce and punish people who don't respect that responsibility... JUST LIKE A CAR...

Sorry to rant...

Lynn wrote: "I still don't understand why the topic is so contentious."

And that's exactly why these threads tend to get out of hand. If you can't bring yourself to understand the other party's point of view you are part of the problem.

Jesse nailed it on the head. There is a lack of political and law enforcement will at the root of the problem, NOT gun carrying good citizens, although the laws in NZ that require your gun to be under lock and key when you are NOT using it, goes a long way to stop hooligans from stealing firearms.

Traceable bullets sound interesting. I guess they could even be bar-coded, but if you don't stem the flow of illegal arms and bullets into the country, it won't make much difference.

"And that's exactly why these threads tend to get out of hand. If you can't bring yourself to understand the other party's point of view you are part of the problem."

Which point of the view is the "other party's"?? I am not choosing sides or aligned with any party, I just want an open discussion about what the real problem is, and possible, workable and agreeable solutions to it. I don't think any of the "parties" are for unprovoked and un-needed gun violence, excpet the parties that perpetrate that violence on the rest of us.

In your case it would be the people with the polarized points of view one way or the other. The point I'd like to make is that there simply is no way to win in a thread like this. Whether it's by trying to reach a compromise or articulating an opinion eloquently into a post, there's no way to quell the s***storm of a gun control thread once it's taken off. There will always be at least one person who will always disagree and he will always be vocal and persuasive about it.

Edited by artsandt on 05/19/2009 20:48:19 MDT.

Great, now the Sierra bears will have access to guns. Instead of climbing trees and looking for open bear canisters, they will just lay in wait around the bend and hold you up.

hehe, well I haven't had a chance to get tired ofthis yet!

I'm largely anti-gun. I've never been able to understand why people want to carry guns in the first place. It seems there is a better way to accomplish whatever goal people say they have:

self defense against people - police or martial arts.
self defense against animals - bear spray.

Guns are very risky because they hold within them the pent up potential energy to launch a bullet with deadly force at the mere pull of a trigger - whether on purpose or not. These other solutions are much safer. So I always think people just like to have guns because it's cool or something.

BTW - I know a guy who had 3 guns for who knows what reason here in the city. Anyway they were stolen out of his house by someone who knew what to do with them. :) Most people have no idea what to do with their guns or how to keep other people from using them mischievously anyway. I'd feel safer if they were banned. Or perhaps you could get a license but it would be very hard and require a lot of training. Cut out the yahoos. :)

Edited by theronr on 05/19/2009 22:14:03 MDT.

Gee, Theron..it is VERY simple. You buy a safe that is then installed into your house's concrete via drilling. If one has a house gun (and I feel one should) you get a second safe installed into your floor of your bedroom. Same with your vehicle. There are as many types of safes out there as one could want.

I always have to wonder why the anti gun folk show up and toss out the word "paranoid" as well (in reference to an earlier post by another member).

I for one look forward to this passing. I am proud that I have a CPL and that yes, I subjected my fingerprints to the FBI for that right.

And for anyone who trusts that the police will save them...do you also believe the gov't should save you in an emergency? No. You are responsible for your own safety! The gov't itself has pleaded how many times with people to have 72 hour kits on hand!?

Even in a town/city with heavy police presence (ie..tax dollars aplenty) you are looking at 10 to 20 minutes before the police arrive - and if they are in immanent danger they are not going to charge in to save your sorry butt. They will wait till things are safer. It is the same as having a weeks worth of supplies on hand in case of a flood, storm or other disaster. Way I see it.....if I can feed and protect my family that evens a lot of things.

And Theron...you think people own guns "because it's cool"? Ever train? Ever hunt? If not...it is never to late to learn real life skills.

please.

it's been done to death (pun intended) already, very recently. actually, done to death TWICE.

please not again.

"please.

it's been done to death (pun intended) already, very recently. actually, done to death TWICE.

please not again."


I know... folks think they can change the point of view of others on a highly charged subject. It is just a waste of server space and bandwidth. :)

Lynn, NZ does sound like a wonderful place.

I dunno, Sarah. I don't think your safe is safe enough. You need a gun to protect your gun.

Sorry Dave, sorry everyone. Couldn't resist.

But if your guns are in a safe how do they help protect you? Surely when you wake up in the middle of the night because of burglars it's too late? Or is there another scenario I haven't thought of?

I understand that you can make some sort of an argument that guns can be used for protection but I'm saying that when you weigh up the pros and cons it doesn't make sense.

Granted I'm no crime or police expert but these are some of the problems I can imagine:

Storing guns properly means they're hard to reach in that burglar scenario. OTOH improper storage leads to grave risk of accidents.

Pulling a gun raises the stakes in a burglary situation. I'd be afraid that the awake and alert burglar would get the drop on me as I try to wake up and figure out what's going on. It would be better to make noise and hope they will retreat when they realize you're awake.

Firing a gun doesn't guarantee anything. You might miss. You might hit someone you didn't intend to. You might lose it in a struggle and arm an otherwise unarmed opponent.

In my anectodal experience owning a gun in the first place can be a reason for a burglar to visit your house! I don't think criminals ever actually buy their guns through stores.

I suppose you as an individual may be well trained and on the ball (everybody believes they are) but I bet a lot of people aren't. It's the same argument as the bear canisters. The people who were consciencious and diligent with their bags are irritated by the canister requirement but those who were not ruined it for everyone. No-one can tell which is which (cheaply anyway.) The way to solve the problem was to outlaw the bags and enforce the canisters even though some people's freedoms were curtailed.

Against these risks I weigh the threat: what exactly is the liklihood of being attacked somehow? If you're really concerned then why not learn self defense skills. They're good because they build confidence in handling yourself in a threatening situation. Also the skills you learn are always available, can't be taken away from you, can't be used against you and can't go off unexpectedly in your kid's hands. My suspicion when people don't learn self defense is that they aren't really concerned enough to spend some money and actually put in some effort to reach their goal.

One thing that did catch my eye in the original post was this quote: "The rules that apply to our federal lands are felt acutely in Nevada, where 87 percent of the state's land is managed by federal agencies,".

I can see if hunting on that land is an issue that there is an argument for guns in rural places. My vision of gun control is ban everything except for double barrel shotguns and bolt action rifles. Those are bulky and can't do rapid fire and should cover hunters.

See, even us crazy liberals have a heart!

In case you missed it have a read through this BPL thread for 13 pages of inane discussion on guns.

Seriously. This discussion has been had (and very recently too!), and it goes nowhere except getting people upset. There are many passionate arguments for and against guns. See the above thread and save yourself the trouble of copying it out here.

If that's not enough, how about another 9 pages of pointless discussion on guns in the backcountry.

There are plenty of places you can go and have arguments on the web. This shouldn't be one of them. Please... =-)

Edited by ashleyb on 05/20/2009 01:06:23 MDT.

"And Theron...you think people own guns "because it's cool"? Ever train? Ever hunt? If not...it is never to late to learn real life skills."

I've never hunted or been in the military although I understand some people have a strong hunting tradition and I generously give them a pass on traditional guns. :)

I did do some rotc-style training in high school and I mainly remember the discipline surrounding that. One of the things that could get you expelled was failing to account for all your ammunition.

I don't know why people want to own guns in normal civilian life. Thinking it's cool was just a guess. Mostly my concerns are about too many people having too many guns under not enough control. There seems to be a lot of discussion generally about gun freedom but not so much about gun discipline. If guns were swiss army knives then there would be no issue.

Gee Ashley, you didn't have to rain on our parade. :(

How curious. 75% of the posts on this thread are directed towards why nobody should be posting on this thread.

Whooo Hoooo!!! Let's start an internet fight about what you can or can't start internet fights about!

I say debate whatever you want till you're fingers grow stiff, eyes go crossed, and your boss is wondering why the hell those reports aren't done yet!

Y'all know that without any responses from the "been there, done that" anti-gun-flame-war crowd this thread would've probably died in quiet obscurity...

...and if not, who are the culprits of the last debate to deny any newcomers the thrill of a good fight?

"I also think they should make bullets more traceable AND A LOT HARDER TO GET!"

Pretty simple to cast your own bullets. Just like
kids used to do with lead army soldiers.

It is a common way to keep expenses down, such as
for the cowboy action shooters who may go through tens
of thousands of rounds a year in practice and events.

http://www.sassnet.com/Shoot-Prog-Main-001A.php

My favorite take on that is Chris Rock:

"Everybody is talking about gun control. Got to control the guns. F***, that, I like guns. If you've got a gun, you don't need to work out! Cause, I ain't working out. I ain't jogging. No, I think we need some bullet control. I think every bullet should cost five thousand dollars. Five thousand dollars for a bullet. Know why? Cos if a bullet cost five thousand dollars, there'd be no more innocent by-standers. That'd be it. Some guy'd be shot you'd be all 'Damn, he must've done something, he's got fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass!' And people'd think before they shot someone 'Man I will blow your f***ing head off, if I could afford it. I'm gonna get me a second job, start saving up, and you a dead man. You'd better hope I don't get no bullets on lay-away!' And even if you get shot you wouldn't need to go to the emergency room. Whoever shot you'd take their bullet back. 'I believe you got my property?'"

do you really think that a criminal has the tools and know how to reload? c'mon man...competion shooter? of course... but do i think that little burst i herd last night was reloads? no friggin way! why not just go to big 5 and buy em? this is my point...

I've seen a lot of people saying that a thread like this only creates tension between BPL members...
two things about that:

A.) this is a discussion board... thats what this is all about, if you cant discuss something without arguing with an "im right, your wrong" attitude, you probaly shouldnt be posting anyways...

B.)"this topic has been beat to death" im sure it has... but now there is a law that very likely too pass, thats why i posted this, not as a "how do you feel IF" more as a " now that this is going to happen"

Hi sarbar! (me and my buddies eat like kings on the trail because of you :)... and I agree with her statements, I also know from reading her posts, that she has a young son... and a gun in the house! some may think this is dangerous, i disagree, when you grow up around guns, you learn to respect that power, it is not a toy... so if her son is ever in a situation with his friends and a gun comes out, he'll know how to use it properly and safely, instead of placing a stigma around it making it seem so "kool" and thinking of it as something to play with...when I was younger I lived up by sonora, little town called Mt. Ranch everyone has guns, but they know how to use them, you don't hear about shootings, robberies, where i lived, you knew that "If I steal from this man, hurt him or his family he has the right to protect his property/family" this mindset puts everyone on a level playing field...

needless to say no ever looks their doors, keys are left in the truck.. a different world compared to the urban sprawl i live in now... sad, really