Been pouring over all the excellent threads on various fuels that will work in stoves, learning about the percentages of ethanol, toxicity of methanol, burn and residue rates , mixing and blending - great stuff!

From my laymans understanding, the brand with the highest concentration of ethanol and the least percentage of nasty additives (Everclear aside) is a safe bet for good burning and avoidance of irritations that bother some. I don't have the scientific bend of many of you... I just want the results of your experience and I'll go buy it! (for my Sierra hikes)

So...What brand has the highest percentage of ethanol and where can I buy it in the USA?

I use whatever my local hardware store has in the paint thinner aisle that says "denatured alcohol" on it. *shrug*

and here is what my local hardware store actually stocks and I've been using:

Linkage

Any hardware store should have this or their own brand name (Ace, TrueValue, etc.). Home Depot/Lowes will have denatured alcohol as well.

Larry,
Look for Sunnyside Denatured Alcohol.

If you can't find Sunnyside, Google 'MSDS' for the brand you can get and make an educated comparison to Sunnyside. You're looking for 94% ethanol. Look for that last 6% and convince yourself it's OK to be around.

The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) tells you a lot, but you have to look to find it.

Edited by greg23 on 05/15/2009 13:50:28 MDT.

The batch qualities on all that stuff in the can differ quite a bit. I have no experience with sunnyside so it may be an exception to the rule. What works once can next time have some very harsh vapors etc. I have found the yellow heet bottle to be the way to go, of course not as high energy as ethanol but as for availability and reliability I have not found better yet.

Sean

Hardware stores are typically required by law to have all MSDS sheets on hand or readily made available upon request. However, keep in mind that MSDS sheets don't necessarily list all ingredients and don't always cover uses other than that for which they are intended.

"The batch qualities on all that stuff in the can differ quite a bit."

I've used about five different brands of hardware store "denatured alcohol" and they've all had very similar burn qualities. As long as the ingredients say 94% or better ethanol, I'd have no problems using it. Regarding availability, I actually have a harder time finding the yellow HEET bottles in this area than I do simple denatured alcohol.

SLX brand works well and is always reported to burn clean. I've had bad luck with other brands. I get it at WalMart.

Here is what it looks like.
http://paint-and-supplies.hardwarestore.com/50-280-paint-thinners/s-l-x-denatured-alcohol-605435.aspx

And here is what the MSDS looks like.

48% ethanol
48% methanol
4% Methyl isobutyl ketone

Nasty.

Edited by greg23 on 05/17/2009 07:16:07 MDT.

Yeah, SLX is some pretty nasty stuff thanks to all that methanol and methyl.

If you're in Southern California, you should have lots of local outfitters that carry denatured alcohol in their camping departments. Any place that sells alcohol stoves will sell the fuel for them.

Not all "denatured" alcohol is created equal. S-L-X is about 50% methanol and has some nasty additives. Sunnyside is 85%+ ethanol. It's worth taking the time to look at the MSDS sheets. In general, the higher the ethanol content the better and the fewer number of nasty additives the better.

Thanks for your input guys. Never thought my love of the woods would lead me to researching chemicals and learning how to read hazardous chemical spec sheets. But this interest is all about staying as healthy as possible when using an alcohol stove over the long term, so I think it's an important thing to learn. I could use more enlightenment, if you can help. Maybe others are interested in this too. Ingredients aren't listed on cans.

I registered at MSDS.com, where I got 9 search results for "Sunnyside denatured alcohol".

Allpro Denatured Alcohol Sunnyside Corporation
Allpro Denatured Alcohol Sunnyside Corporation
Denatured Alcohol Anhydrous Sunnyside Corporation
Denatured Alcohol Solvent Sunnyside Corporation
Denatured Alcohol Solvent Sunnyside Corporation
Denatured Alcohol, Anhydrous Sunnyside Corporation
Denatured Ethyl Alcohol Sunnyside Corporation
Denatured Ethyl Alcohol, "Tecsol" 3 Solvent, 95%
Pro Solutions Denatured Alcohol Sunnyside Corporation

Here are excerpts from the MSDS pdf for Denatured Alcohol Solvent. (This is the same stuff I bought down at the local TrueValue hardware.).





I'm posting only sections I cut out of the 3 pg pdf that appear relative to ingredient quantity.

The weight % of Sunnyside Denatured Alcohol Solvent is 85.7% - not bad - I can live with that. (Where on the spec sheet does one get the 95% figure? The figure "95%" is listed under "Common names" but there's no documentation or reference as to why...)

I could get no search results for SLX, slx, S-L-X or s-l-x. The search engine on this site refuses to give all results for "denatured alcohol". Signed up for msdsonline.com also...no more helpful because it lists 1000's of listings no matter how you narrow the search.

But I'm still curious. How to get info on SLX vs. other brands?

http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/msds/605435.pdf

Right on, nice resource!

Step forward and receive your nerd award, proudly.

p.s. The NIOSH guide is a good resource for interpreting what's on MSDSs, if you can figure out the decoder ring.

Larry,
Look above to my post on S-L-X. There is a link to the MSDS.

MSDS sheets can be created by anyone. MSDS.com is a company creating sheets, but obviously don't have the market cornered. Hence a few holes.

To find the MSDS for a product Google MSDS, 'company name', and the 'product name'. Then look at the dates on the hits. Some are old. If none of that works call the company and ask them where to find the MSDS. They are usually very helpful.

Edited by greg23 on 05/19/2009 06:13:33 MDT.

Yikes! And to think I was just going to tout the virtues of SLX primarily because a blurb on the can recommends it for use in marine alcohol stoves. Well, ya know what my momma always said...don't believe everthing ya read!

My yet unopened gallon bottle of S-L-X Denatured Alcohol is sold under the Klean-Strip brand. It will be my 2nd or 3rd gallon of SLX so I'm guessing that I'll be dead in ten years.

I would be interested in your results with the Sunnyside Denatured Alcohol Solvent. I don't know if I had a bad bottle (it was dented) but I vaguely remember my stove not burning as well with it.

Here is a short list of some with very low methanol in it. I just randomly stumbled upon it looking for some other brands. It even lists the MSDS ingredients too. Sunnyside does appear to be the best, although I haven't looked into any other ingredients yet to decide what I would end up using.

http://alcoholsoaking.blogspot.com/2006/03/alcohol-brands-and-sources.html

According to the company's MSDS, Crown Next denatured alcohol (available at Lowe's) is 95% ethanol (the good stuff), for roughly the same price as the "usual" Crown denatured alchohol. Here's the company's MSDS:

http://www.packserv.com/Data/Products/Data-Sheets/-1588946827.pdf

The stuff runs about $7 a quart, and I've always had good experience with it. Cheers.

Hey folks - Having read a few MSDS in my day, seems to me that many backpackers are using denatured alcohol designed for stripping paint, or diluting shellac not for burning in a cook stove. From a toxicity perspective, I would avoid the denatured alcohols with methyl ethyl ketone, naptha, methyl isobutyl ketone, ethyl acetate, and especially benzene. Accidental spills do occur on backpacks, clothing, sleeping bags bags and skin. One gets exposure by absorption through the skin and breathing the vapors. Residuals spilt in the cooking pots could also be ingested.

Seems to me that the Crown Next Denatured alcohol with 95% Ethanol, 5% isopropanol, might be a less toxic option. Thanks to Warren Grannis for suggesting it. I will see if I can find it a Lowes and try it out in my backpacking alcohol stove.

For those interested in finding a less toxic alternative - you might look at the US EPA residential Screening Levels available at
http://www.epa.gov/reg3hwmd/risk/human/rb-concentration_table/Generic_Tables/pdf/master_sl_table_run_JUN2011.pdf
These are screening levels for soil, tap water etc. In general the higher the residential soil or tapwater screening level, the lower the toxicity and health risks of exposure.

These are my own comments and do not reflect the opinions or policy of any government agency.

The backpackers who are concerned have probably already converted over to high-proof drinking alcohol, like 190 proof, since it is not denatured. Of course, it will rot your gut if you drink much of it.

--B.G.--

I have been using Everclear. It burns very nicely and is almost completely Ethanol(95%)) (5% water), i'm guessing. It is readily available here. Is there any downside to it other that the price?

I've been using Klean-Strip Green Denatured Alcohol from the Paint section of my local Home Depot. The MSDS on this states that it is 90-100% Ethanol and less than 10% Methanol and less than 10% Methyl Isobutyl Ketone. From those numbers, I presume that it is mostly (>90%) Ethanol with some variation in the Methanol and/or Methyl Isobutyl Ketone concentrations (combined less then 10%).

Edited by RichardCullip on 08/17/2011 21:15:50 MDT.

I also use and like the Green Klean Strip (not the SLX).

"Seems to me that the Crown Next Denatured alcohol with 95% Ethanol, 5% isopropanol, might be a less toxic option." Dr_Jimmy

So far, this looks like the safest I've seen, except for everclear.

From wikipedia entry on isopropanol:
"Around 15 g of isopropyl alcohol can have a toxic effect on a 70 kg human if left untreated.[10] However, it is not nearly as toxic as methanol or ethylene glycol."

"Is there any downside to it other that the price?"

The temptation to drink it.

In some states, 190 proof Everclear is not legally sold, and they have a lower proof version, which is not nearly as good as 190.

I tried to burn some 140 proof Wild Turkey, and it would barely burn.

--B.G.--

The fact that S L X is ca. 45% methanol is probably an advantage. The lower Vapour pressure of the methanol will make it easier to bloom in the winter. Methanol is only dangerous when ingested. It burns to the same exhaust gases as ethanol. Either should only be used in well ventilated spaces, mainly because incomplete combustion of either will produce carbon monoxide. Heet is almost 100% methanol, and is not regarded as dangerous when used as a fuel.
Notwithstanding these thoughts, I will try to obtain the green variety to see if it gives quicker boil times than SLX.

It works, it doesn't leave residue, and it's available just about everywhere.

Hey, everclear wasn't bad with some cherry koolaid lol and doesn't take much to make a strong drink ;)

At Home Depot you can find Klean Strip Green:

1.Ethyl alcohol {Ethanol} 90.0 -100.0 %
2.Methanol <10.0 %
3.Methyl isobutyl ketone <10.0 %

"Klean-Strip® Green™ Denatured Alcohol cleans glass and is used as a fuel for marine stoves. Not intended for sale or use as a thinner."

Seems like better option than some of the other mixes.

use the slx if you need denatured, it is the cleanest burning. It is actually sold as marine stove fuel. Having filthy pot and windscreen is not a goo tradeoff to save 1 min of heating time. You are also burning it, not drinking it, so dont be concerned about Methanol toxicity.

The others all make soot, or worse. especially the kleenstrip green, it leaves nasty sticky varnish on your pot. That will never come off. You cant try to go by MSDS alone. If you dont believe it, try them all. Of course, there is likely large variation in the crud they denature it with ,depending on what they are able to get cheaply, etc. YOu might get a good batch. But slx is always good in my experience.

Of course, everclear is best.

Edited by livingontheroad on 08/15/2011 19:24:44 MDT.

About a year ago I wrote this review, so here goes again:

This review isn't about an actual alcohol stove, but rather about the fuel that all these stoves use. For the vast majority of the alcohol fuel enthusiasts the fuel of choice has been a denatured alcohol such as Klean-Stip's S-L-X brand. However, as Roger C. points out in his series on stoves, the caloric output of denatured alcohol is rather disappointing because it is actually a mixture of ethanol and methanol (about 50/50 according to the MSDS). It is the ethanol that provides the highest heat output, but the effect is dampened by the large amount of menthanol. Buying pure ethanol is prohibitively expensive and illegal in some states.

Recently I came across a type of denatured alcohol that is 90 - 100% ethanol and less than 10% methanol: Kleen-Strip Green! It's marketed as 95% natural and renewable content and biodegradable. And looking at the MSDS it has fewer additives, so one could assume a less toxic fume. The cost is also less than S-L-X by about a buck-and-a-half for 32oz, which is just fine by me!

But to the nitty gritty. I tested the two types of denatured alcohol using my mini Caldera Cone, a BPL 550 Ti pot, and the Trail Designs burner that goes with the set-up. Using 14ml of the S-L-X I brought 2 cups of 65F water to a vigorous bubble formation before flame out at 6 min. 40 sec. The same set-up using the Green DA resulted in a vigorous, roiling boil in 6 minutes...in fact it blew the lid right off! And it hadn't even flamed out.

In conclusion I ascertained that this new type of DA is cleaner burning, has more heat output and requires less fuel to achieve a roiling boil. It is superior to SLX type DA and HEET (the latter is about 99% methanol and thus has a very low heat value). I gave it a 4 rating because even though it is "greener" it still has some additives.

Larry, I buy KSG at Fred Myers, also known as Kroegers in some parts of the country. Just shop around at hardware stores or big box stores with a home improvement section.

Edited by TarasBulba on 08/15/2011 21:14:02 MDT.

I asked this question a while back:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=49336

The conclusion seemed to be that here in the US there is no way to know for sure what is put into denatured alcohol.

I wanted to try 190 proof Everclear, but it's illegal in California and Nevada.

I've put my alcohol stove plans on hold until I somehow get some Everclear.

Good luck.

"use the slx if you need denatured, it is the cleanest burning. It is actually sold as marine stove fuel."

Read page 1 of this thread.

SLX is Not want you want to use, regardless of what the can says ...

Edited by greg23 on 08/16/2011 06:06:02 MDT.

S-L-X works the best for my alcohol stoves. I buy it by the gallon at Home Depot.

--B.G.--

What's the Best Alcohol for Stove Fuel?

HJ

The above link to Adventures in Stoving states:

"The best alcohol fuel is ethanol (ethyl alcohol). It has the highest number of calories per gram of any alcohol fuel and burns the cleanest."

Don't believe everything you read: Isopropanol is about 5% higher. (But I wouldn't use it as a fuel.)

Edited by greg23 on 08/17/2011 19:17:07 MDT.

Hi,

Does anyone know whether it is true that concerns with toxicity in these fuels include simply getting it on your hands (aside from breathing in fumes or ingesting)?

Really? Iso is actually higher? Thanks for calling that out. I'll have to check on that.

HJ

Greg is correct. Isopropanol has about a 5% higher heat content than ethanol.

Per Wikipedia:

Heat Content of Alcohols
Fuel              MJ/kg        MJ/L
Methanol       19.930       15.78
Ethanol         28.865       22.77
Isopropanol    30.447       23.93

I stand corrected. Thank you, Greg.

HJ

P.S. Blog article on alcohol updated as well.

Edited by hikin_jim on 08/21/2011 11:01:26 MDT.

Denatured Alcohol is available at most hardware stores and some marine stores (if you live near the coast). I'm not sure I'd worry at all about brand since its pretty much the same thing (at least chemically) where ever you get it in the States. I've never really tried to use denatured alcohol intended to clear water from car fuel lines because there are usually to varieties of addative and burning one results in some pretty nasty smoke (red HEET maybe?). Just can't keep them seperate in my mind, there's no ingrediants list necessary on a car fuel addative like this, and the cost of these products compared to the volume of fuel you get is high.

I'm not sure I'd worry at all about brand since its pretty much the same thing (at least chemically) where ever you get it in the States.

Got my large container of SLX denatured alcohol from Home Depot. Its much cheaper in bulk, considering you can go through it fairly quick.

I go through two or three gallons of it per year, so having a convenient source of it one mile from my home is good.

Now I have to get busy and figure out how to recycle that steel container into something else useful.

--B.G.--

Nothing wrong per se with SLX (mostly methanol) as a fuel. Works pretty well.

Two possible considerations:
For someone who is an ounce or gram counter, ethanol has about 25% more heat content by weight than methanol, so you can carry less ethanol for the same result. In other words with low ethanol SLX, you have to carry more to get the same result.

For someone who has to cook in his tent or a shelter due to weather considerations, methanol and denaturing agent fumes are toxic whereas ethanol fumes are not. A low ethanol mix like SLX will be fairly toxic since the majority of its components are toxic.

HJ

I live in NJ, where Everclear 190 Proof is plentiful. Sure, you have to pay the tax on it, but at least it's drinkable. Using Everclear, I never have to worry about toxic contaminants, and you don't really need that much fuel, anyway. I carry an Armor weight Sterling silver Zippo lighter that I use only with Everclear, because the standard types of lighter fuel give me a rash when I put the lighter in my pocket. I just worry sometimes that the fumes coming from my lighter make me smell like a chronic alcohol abuser!

Hope the cops don't pull you over with that in your pocket. ;)

HJ

"Hope the cops don't pull you over with that in your pocket. ;)"

I wonder if that would count as an open container violation.

--B.G.--

Doubtful, and I've got a clean driving record. I did think about that, so sometimes, I leave it at home and take a mini Bic.

clik on the pic

Wow. 192 proof.

I wouldn't know whether to drink it, burn it, or worship it.

--B.G.--

I made a thread comparing commonly discussed fuels like HEET, Green DA and SLX DA but here's the cliff notes.

Klean Strip appears to add "something" to their product to make them scented, contributing to the smell during combustion. To me it's not really bad at all when used outdoors where there's tons of fresh air but indoors like in a well ventilated kitchen, it almost smells like propane at close range, but much lighter. I'm guessing they did this so you don't accidentally drink it.

HEET (Yellow) seems like the most clean smelling fuel during combustion, I'm guessing that they haven't added any ingredient to add to its scent, since it's use was designed to go into your fuel tank or fuel can. It's nearly all methanol (MSDS shows 99%) and although I keep reading that the only danger is from ingesting it, that's not entirely true. Methanol is readily and quickly absorbed through your skin, much faster and easier than with ethanol making it a very dangerous and toxic choice if you have repeated contact with it. I would advise that you avoid all physical contact with this much methanol than with denatured alcohol blends.

Everyone should technically limit and/or avoid all skin contact with DA or methanol but I theorize that occasional contact with DA is less harmful than with 99% methanol. If you need more info on whatever fuel you intend on using, especially a brand or type you haven't used before, always look at the MSDS to see what's in it before you start using it.

Jim
Honolulu, Hawaii
87 feet above sea level

I forgot to add, my choice is SLX over the Green DA. Green burns with a yellow/orange flame and it does leave sooty black deposits. It does appear to burn hotter as I recorded a faster boiling time than with SLX.

In order to counter Green DA's sootiness, I now blend it with HEET (yellow) to essentially create SLX. A 1:1 ratio should be enough as it burns much cleaner this way.

I tend to need to buy fuel at my destination and yellow bottle Heet comes in a nice 12 oz. size and is readily available most places I go. It also has a nice long thin neck for easy mess-less pouring. I find the original container fine for carrying it in so no need to fly with fuel bottles. The fact that it is 99% methanol does not worry me, it never touches my skin so I don't consider it a big deal.

I actually bicycle tour way more than I backpack and as a result need to buy fuel frequently and in small quantities on the road. I also fly to almost all of my trip's starting points so buying larger quantities at home is not typically an option for me.

If your needs differ from mine, you may not find Heet as convenient, but it seems like it is far and away the best answer for me.

One tip for using Heet... Don't lose the paper disk in the cap. It tends to fall out and if left out the bottle is likely to leak. As an added precaution, I carry it in an upright position.

Green [denatured alcohol] ... does appear to burn hotter as I recorded a faster boiling time than with SLX.

That's a great thought Jim, I think you're on the right track. I haven't tried plain water and not sure as to how much to start with, perhaps I need to pull out my medicine dropper and try it out. My dropper measures down to 1ml and for some reason I think that's too much in a stove so I may try a few drops at first.

James,

I'm very interested in what you find out. I'm basing my (somewhat) educated guess that water will sort things out on the experiences people in other countries have relayed to me. In other countries, there is a particular type of denatured alcohol available called meths (what is meths?) or metho. This particular type of denatured alcohol has a higher ethanol content than the denatured alcohol available in the US. It's a fairly common practice to add a dash of water to reduce the amount of soot produced.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Jim,

I believe you're right, I'm new to how alcohol and water relates to how it burns in an alc stove but I'm happy that with your's and other guy's suggestions, you guys steered me into the direction to try it out.

=====

Test #1: 20ml Green DA to 1ml of distilled water (5% water mix)

Test Method: Measured 20 ml of fuel in a Pyrex graduated cylinder and used a medicine dropper with 1ml increments to measure out the water. Water was added into the graduated cylinder and swished around to ensure it mixed. The new fuel mixture was poured into the Evernew Ti Stove and lit. An Evernew 600ml Ti pot was placed on top (not to measure boiling times) but rather to check on soot deposits left behind.

Results:

- not much different from using pure Green DA
- yellow/orange flames present during full bloom riding up the sides of the pot
- left behind light sooty deposits on the stove's upper piece but heavier on the underside of the pot
- the deposits would not easily wipe off and needed to be scrubbed off with a "green" pad and detergent

=====

Test #2: 20ml Green DA to 5ml of distilled water (25% water mix)

Test Method: Same as above except with 5ml of distilled water added to the mix.

Results:

- significantly different
- yellow/orange flames significantly reduced, none riding up on the sides of the pot
- purple color flames more abundant where it used to be yellow/orange
- no visible sooty deposits left on the top of the stove stand
- underside of pot had a "rainbow patterned" discoloration and had a definite coating of "something" however it wasn't black sooty carbon. It's like the underside area got darker and it too also had to be lightly scrubbed in order to remove it.

- there were a couple of drops of fuel (or water) left in the stove after flame was out, however this quickly evaporated due to residual heat

*NOTE: When using HEET (yellow) or SLX, the underside of my pot may show very slight "splashes" of discoloration, kind of like water spotting patterned but nothing major.

=====

Test #3: 20ml Green DA to 6.5ml + 1 drop of distilled water to approximate 6.66ml of water (~33% water mix)

Test Method: Same as above except with 6.5ml + 1 drop of distilled water added to the mix.

Results:

- similar to the above but with perhaps 4-5 drops more of leftover unburned "something" (probably water) which also quickly evaporated after flame was out.

- no sooty deposits on the upper stove stand, no visible discoloration
- underside of pot was darkened and slightly discolored with a rainbow-hue with what appears to be 2 hot spots, however with less of a coating than what was present after Test #2. No sooty deposits however.

**NOTE: Most of the dark area under the pot was easily wiped off with just a drop of alcohol and a paper towel. The blue hue remains as I believe that's the titanium changing color from the heat.

=====

Summary:

I'm not concluding anything as I don't believe in conjecture but I have some better ideas now that I might want to follow up on later (like using non-titanium pots) and ty it again using a stainless kettle and see how it might change the results.

Theory #1: Titanium has a tendency to discolor with a blue color once it reaches a certain temperature, and I believe the blue discoloration is a sign that the Green DA is indeed burning hotter. When I used only HEET (yellow), the bottom of my pan would not turn blue anywhere. Using SLX has a tendency to create small spotting of blue in random areas on my pot but leaves no coating and as such I believe it's cleaner for this specific application as it leaves less of a mess to clean up.

Theory #2: Water seems to be an excellent additive to control how Green DA burns, at 5% water mix it doesn't do much however at 25% mix the carbon sooting is eliminated. Whatever post combustion deposits left behind might vary based on the type of stove used and the material of the pot used.

Theory #3: Using Green DA to its full potential to boil water may lie more on the material and design of the pot being heated. For example I used a Japanese kettle to conduct my HEET vs SLX vs Green DA test, however the bottom has a very thick copper plate. From my understanding between copper vs aluminum, copper is a better heat conductor which I've seen in the past (used as a heatsink) where it seems to absorb heat faster than aluminum, however copper appears to want to retain the heat rather than give it away, whereas aluminum appeared to be more resistant at absorbing heat however it was much faster at getting rid of it.

If I used a typical "camp pot" or a pot of simpler design where the bottom was much thinner, I think I would've seen more significant results. Again I'd have to redo these tests and challenge my theories.

James,

VERY interesting results. I'd also be interested to know how burn times and boil times are affected. If you can lengthen the burn and boil times, separate but related times, you might really be on to something. You carry less fuel with the higher ethanol "green" DA, add a little water when you hit your camp site, and then cook. That would be pretty sweet if you could do more with less.

HJ

Greg...I see that sunnyside actually has ethyl acetate in it...something I used in entomology to kill insects. Kleen strip green also has this ingredient so I avoid both. I find the SLX has some of the lower percentages of additivies (if MSDS are to be trusted) as I don't really have any issues with burning either methyl or ethyl alcohol.

Jim,

I'll try to setup a better test to showcase boil and burn times using DA with varying ratios of water. I need to get my vid recorder back as my phone doesn't do a good job.

I'm seriously considering getting my hands on a different type of stove other than my Evernew and restest everything. If you saw the Evernew or used it before, it's excellent for bringing water to a boil really fast, it burns very hot and uses fuel quickly. As such it's not the best choice to use if you want to slow cook something or simmer. The design of this stove is all about making as much heat as quickly as possible so I'm thinking the use of 90% or higher ethanol is having an amplifying effect. It might still prove to be a very good fuel source but perhaps not in the Evernew's case (or a stove based on similar design principles).

So I'm left wondering what would happen if I used a stove design which is best used for simmering rather than boil water really fast.

1. Would I still run into sooting issues as I did the Evernew?

2. Is it possible that there are stove designs that can use Green DA without dilution producing no soot deposits?

3. How would it perform with a stove using a fiberglass/carbon-felt wick design?

4. What kind of pot would perform best, one with a narrow-base taller height or wider base with a shallower height?

It's easy for me to say that the Green DA is bad stuff due what I found during a few tests however l'm not entirely convinced that it is, it could be an indication that the stove itself is wrong for this type of fuel.

For example, I'm sure a lot of you are familiar with working on car engines. Racers at the drag strip sometimes use special fuel blends in order to make the kind of power they need and sometimes that involves alteration of the engine in order to make it work.

So it's possible that my Evernew stove isn't ideally designed to use a very high ethanol content fuel to work properly. If thermal feedback is indeed the root cause of my problems then perhaps using a stove that's more resistant to that issue might be better than to alter the fuel formulation with water...

Hi, James,

Good points. So, if you do additional tests with another type of stove, I for one would be very interested to hear about the results.

I can't give you input on all of your questions, but generally for #4, a wide, kind of squat pot is going to work best. You'd have the least amount of flame spillage up the sides of the pot.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Green denatured alcohol has more heat content, but doesn't burn quite as cleanly.

Here's the classic photo (below). I'm running on yellow HEET (methanol) on the left and green denatured on the right.

Left hand side: Nice blue flames.
Right hand side: Yellow flames, flames that wind up putting soot on my pot. :(

I've been trying to get a stove that can burn green denatured alcohol cleanly. I've got a couple that do a good job of burning cleanly (back row, 2nd and 3rd from the left).


The problem is that they're hard to light and are super slow. In fact so slow that after 20 minutes I cancelled the test because they hadn't brought 500ml of water to a boil.

The two stoves in the front row (1st on left and 2nd on left) burn fairly cleanly but still produce some soot. They can boil 500 ml of 7C water in about 12 minutes on 15ml of green denatured alcohol with a total burn time of 15 minutes, BUT they still have some soot.

Has anybody got anything burning green DA cleanly with a boil time for 500ml around 10 minutes (give or take)?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

I use pure methanol. I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of it. It is cheap and burns clean. Its toxicity is only a problem if ingested or adsorbed. So don't drink it or pour it all over yourself! You can't say the same for many of the denaturing agents used in combination with ethanol in denatured alcohols, or about iso alcohol. And it is very cheap in huge quantities.
And guess what the treatment is if you accidentally ingest methanol? Drink real booze. Seriously, the ethanol will out-compete the methanol in your system and force it to not be absorbed.

I did have an accident with a big can of it once while pouring into smaller containers. Got a lot on my arm. Had a couple shots of scotch after just as a precaution, but felt no ill effects.

Edited by dasbin on 12/12/2011 13:38:45 MST.

Nothing wrong with methanol, Bradley. It's just that high ethanol content alcohol blends contain a lot more potential heat then methanol.

I've got a bit of a write up of the relative heat content on my blog: What's the Best Alcohol for Stove Fuel?

The problem is that the high ethanol content blends produce soot when burning. Methanol will burn without soot, but you have to carry more of it to get the same amount of heating. My interest is in finding a way to burn high ethanol content blends without soot. I know that adding water will do it, but that's a PITA. I'd rather find a stove that burns it cleanly as is.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 12/12/2011 15:07:27 MST.

I wrote a follow up blog post for those who may be interested a comparison of methanol vs. ethanol as a stove fuel: Is Ethanol Worth It?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

After reading this thread I got the MSDS for Diggers Methylated spirits a common brand of metho sold around Australia. It seems pretty good by US standards.

INGREDIENTS
Ethyl alcohol 95.8-99.8%
Water 4.2-0.2%
Denaturant <0.1%
Denaturants may be one or more of the following: Methyl isobutyl ketone, fluorescein, diethyl phthalate, tertiary butyl alcohol, brucine sulphate or denatonium benzoate.

"brucine sulphate"

That sounds like nasty stuff.

--B.G.--

Mark,

That's excellent stuff by US standards. I believe fluorescein causes the metho to appear purple in color.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hi Jim,

This is a great thread. It is very interesting and informative. Having this kind of information is extremely helpful in choosing the correct fuel for your alcohol stove prior to hitting the trail.

In actual practice depending on where you live and where you intend to hike one might encounter difficulty in finding his or her fuel of choice. Small Country Town USA Hardware/Grocery might not have Heet, SLX or Klean Strip Green and more than likely won't have Everclear on the shelf. A hiker filling up his fuel bottle before heading out or topping off at a resupply point may have to "settle" for what is available.

Depending upon wholesale cost and retail pricing what is on the shelf of any particular country store could be some pretty nasty stuff as our standards go. For this reason we should be reminded that;

1.) Avoid cooking inside of your shelter

2.) Use your stove in a well ventilated area

3.) As much as possible avoid contact with your fuel

4.) Don't store your fuel bottle inside of your cookpot, mug or kettle

5.) Handle your fuel carefully to avoid spills

All the information on what is the most efficient and least toxic alcohol fuel is well appreciated. Even though a hiker could be forced to settle for what is available, we can make a more informed choice of what fuel we use if Small Country Town USA Hardware/Grocery does in fact stock more than one brand or type of alcohol fuel.

FWIW I wonder if the only difference between Everclear and White Lightnin' is the liquor tax and/or the ingredients in the White Lightnin' ?

A proper air fuel ratio and the cleanest burning least toxic fuel available in a fairly simple stove may provide the best all around performance.

Party On,

Newton

Newton,
Great post and reminder for all members!

I hear you on the toxicity. Stores in NY don't carry Everclear or similar. Some state law that limits drinking alcohol to around 75% or so. Working at Cornell, it was easy to get some reagent grade ethanol from lab suppliers, though.

Having to carry large bottles around is a problem. On hikes/paddles, it was often "only" possible to get WG in quarts, or, IsoPropanol. (Unless you were willing to travel 20-30 miles.) On many trails you often settled for what the "...Small Country Town USA Hardware/Grocery does in fact stock..." More out of necessity, I found that using an alcohol stove for through hiking one of the longer trails was not possible without carrying all the fuel you needed at the start.

My initial experiments concentrated on making isopronol burn cleanly. While tiny stoves with wicks will do that, not enough heat was generated to be worth it and there was always a bit of soot. The brasslite stoves CAN burn WG. But, the soot means loss of efficiency. Later I concentrated on burning WG, since I could ALWAYS find WG. I could never to get a clean, highly efficient burn in an open stove, though.

Anyway, settling for what they have is also an excersize in planning. Else, you end up burning highly toxic stuff in open burners designed for something different. To take a specific type of burner for a week or two, then be unable to get more fuel, can ruin a hike. Even my old SVEA doesn't really care for auto gas. At least for now and the next 5 years, in the ADK's I bring WG, because I can carry an extra pound in fuel, and that is all I am sure of. (Actually, a 12 fluid oz bottle of fuel and it's weight weigh about 9-1/4oz.)

Yellow HEET, canisters, ethanol and SLX are all "iffy" at best. The simplest WG stove I know of is the old SVEA 123. Usually a 12oz pop bottle and the stove will last me about 10-14 days. (At 2-2.5 quarts water per day, bacon and eggs, trout or some type of real cooking every other day.) No, a SVEA is not a UL stove. Fuel is ALWAYS available, even if it is auto gas.

On line, you can often get anything, but, that doesn't help on the trail.

Hi, John/Newton,

I think you've got some good points there about fuel alcohol storage. Recently, I wrote a similar post on my blog: Methanol/Denatured Alcohol -- Safe Handling.

I think my post is pretty similar to what you're saying except that I frequently do store my fuel in my cook pot. I store my alcohol in a tight bottle inside a Ziploc, but if there were a spill, I figure the cook pot isn't absorbent. I can wipe it out pretty easily. Alcohol cleans up pretty easily, and the minute traces that might remain aren't going to be a problem.

I suppose if one were really worried about a trace of alcohol in a pot, one could put the pot on the stove with no food or water in it for a few seconds. That ought to boil off any traces of alcohol.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 12/23/2011 13:25:07 MST.

James Marco wrote: > Stores in NY don't carry Everclear or similar. Some state law that limits drinking alcohol to around 75% or so.

James Marco wrote: > On hikes/paddles, it was often "only" possible to get WG in quarts, or, IsoPropanol. (Unless you were willing to travel 20-30 miles.) On many trails you often settled for what the "...Small Country Town USA Hardware/Grocery does in fact stock..." More out of necessity, I found that using an alcohol stove for through hiking one of the longer trails was not possible without carrying all the fuel you needed at the start.

My initial experiments concentrated on making isopronol burn cleanly. While tiny stoves with wicks will do that, not enough heat was generated to be worth it and there was always a bit of soot. The brasslite stoves CAN burn WG. But, the soot means loss of efficiency. Later I concentrated on burning WG, since I could ALWAYS find WG. I could never to get a clean, highly efficient burn in an open stove, though.

Anyway, settling for what they have is also an excersize in planning. Else, you end up burning highly toxic stuff in open burners designed for something different. To take a specific type of burner for a week or two, then be unable to get more fuel, can ruin a hike.

James Marco wrote: > At least for now and the next 5 years, in the ADK's I bring WG... Yellow HEET, canisters, ethanol and SLX are all "iffy" at best. The simplest WG stove I know of is the old SVEA 123... No, a SVEA is not a UL stove, [but] fuel is ALWAYS available, even if it is auto gas.

"I store my alcohol in a tight bottle inside a Ziploc"

Lots of backpackers carry their alcohol in a small 4-ounce or 8-ounce plastic bottle. The problem is the tall/skinny form factor. A bottle would fit my needs better if it could be very short and fat, shorter and fatter than an apple.

What is out there that I could recycle?

--B.G.--

Yeah, I'm totally with you there. I'd like something a bit more squat.

Certain 8oz drink bottles are perfect, but...

...but I'm no longer willing to use them now that my little girl is old enough to get into them.

Maybe one of the cottage gear manufacturers could come out with something. It's clearly something that would be useful.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Edited by hikin_jim on 12/23/2011 14:42:37 MST.

I believe the CocaCola company actually packages soda in a round, PET bottle around the holidays. Now would be a good time to get a 6 pack....

Yeah, I think I've seen those. Still looks a bit too much like a drink bottle, but maybe if I peel the label off. The thing that would really make my day would be if the bottle fit my Packafeather cap. Probably wishful thinking. Most useful cap though.


HJ
Adventures in Stoving

I used to store my alky in 16oz water bottles. they weight next to nothing (I think 10g) and if you don't need 16oz of fuel, don't fill it up all the way. Bulk of that large bottle less than half way full being the only downside- and child safety...which is why I quit using them. I've got some little ones who really like drinking out of plastic bottles (dunno why, crazy kid thing) and they can't read so writing "POISON! STOVE FUEL" and skulls and crossbones aren't much of a deterrent.

Now I use much heavier child proof lid, cough syrup bottles. I've got a 4oz Robitussin bottle (was expired, cleaned it out, scrubbed off the label) and an 8oz Vicks vaporizer (to add to humidifier, NyQuil bottles would also be pretty good, I would think) bottle. They are fantastic, with really nice child proof lids. The Vicks bottle is a better quality bottle than the Robitussin bottle, but they both get the job done. The Vicks bottle is clear so I added some food coloring to the fuel in that bottle, just for fun...

I'll post some pics when I get a chance to take some.

BM

FWIW Zelph has a flip top dispensing cap that fits the 12 ounce bottle of yellow HEET.

The Cap

Don't remove the foil seal on the bottle of HEET. Instead pierce the foil seal with a coathanger wire or some other tool and then screw on the cap from Zelph. I'd think you should be able to finely control the amount of fuel dispensed by squeezing the bottle.

The yellow HEET bottle looks nothing like any juice bottle, soft drink bottle or water bottle. But there is no way to figure what a kid might do or think.

I really like the idea of the child proof cap as used for fuel bottles. It is a pity that there is no way to combine the two.

I too at one time used food coloring to "dye" my fuel and make it easily distinguishable. I have come to realize that these days though all manner of sports drinks and soft drinks are "dyed" with all the colors of the visible light spectrum. If stored in a regular water bottle or drink bottle the "dyed" fuel presents an attractive hazard to youngsters. Using the child proof caps on these kinds of bottles could definitely help to avoid accidental ingestion.

Know where the young ones are, know where your fuel is and store it as safely as possible. As soon as your little ones are old enough, explain to them what is in your fuel storage bottle. Let them know that it will make them sick or worse. Educate, inform and warn them while trying not to "frighten the munchkins out of their minds".

Party On,

Newton

Now that is a pretty nice cap. I'm going to have to get one of those.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Do you really need a childproof lid?

For an 8-ounce alcohol container, I use a plastic bottle that previously contained dishwasher rinse agent. The flip-top cap can be removed for filling.

--B.G.--

Is there a consensus on the safest alcohol fuel that's also efficient and economical (that knocks out Everclear from the running), given how many people keep their fuel bottle in their pot?

Also, do you store your alcohol fuel bottle inside your pot? It's so convenient to keep everything in there, but as Zen Stoves has noted and others have noted in this thread:

"methanol...is also a very poisonous fuel and you should consider the health concerns of this fuel if you decide to use it long term (thru-hikers beware and others may want to avoid storing contaminated stoves in their cook pots or bowls)."

http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm

Edited by mountainwalker on 07/17/2012 19:10:09 MDT.

There are several brands of denatured alcohol that are 95 or more percent ethanol. I get 'Klean Strip Green" at my local Lowes for $7.26 a quart.

Before the extreme and beyond extreme fire dangers popped up here in CO I carried an etOH stove and all the junk in my pot, but the 12-20 oz of fuel in the outer side pocket of my pack. Now I carry a canister stove.

I personally understand the methanol is hazardous to breathe, but feel that fear is greatly overrated from a personal health standpoint, as I am several feet from a tightly windcreened stove for 99% of my burn time. Not much opportunity to breathe that in.

It's a very high concentration of Ethanol (90+ percent) with just a wee bit of other goodies (Isopropyl Alcohol and Methyl Ethyl Ketone) used to denature the finished product. This stuff is actually formulated and approved for indoor use with the increasing popularity of ethanol burning fireplaces.

http://www.e-nrg.com/

We just had a brief discussion here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=64834&skip_to_post=554829#554829

How does the e-nrg burn? I'm just curious as I tried the Klean strip green and it gave off a rather unpleasant smell during combustion. Cheers

Very hot due to the high concentration of Ethanol. It has a faint odor similar to rubbing alcohol in liquid form, but it burns with absolutely NO discernable odor. At just over $6 a quart, it's a "best buy" IMO and I'd likely still buy it if it cost much more.

tempting to order a 12 pack and split it with some locals here in the SF Bay area.

I've ordered a case, in another thread.

Edited by hhope on 07/20/2012 21:05:25 MDT.

Tried E-nrg. Agree it burns very hot. But I'm amazed B. Kelly that you didn't detect any odor when burning it. It most certainly has nasty additives that smell when burned. While not as bad as Esbit or some other alcohol mixtures, it's not pleasant - still smells like some nasty stuff burning - and I can't believe anyone would burn this indoors unless a chimney is carrying all the fumes straight out of the room/house.

Harald, how'd you find it?

Edited by mountainwalker on 01/02/2013 22:08:59 MST.