Hi Roleigh

> a sidebar arrow can be displayed with the wording "Better"
Noted for the future.

Cheers

Hi Chris

Ah, the 70s ... Yeah!

Cheers

I would like to thanks all at BPL for their great comments.

Hi Mark,

First I would like to thank you for your advice early on in these tests.

"On a related side note, I know your experiments were confined to specific stoves, but if a stove was designed specifically to more completely combust isopropyl alcohol do you think that would be a safe way to use iso as a fuel? Or is using it just generally a bad idea?"

The Trangia burner seemed to handle IPA very well and it still produced lots of soot, I do not think that it would be possible to design a practical stove to burn IPA with no soot.

I would not advise to use IPA even in the open, while it is better than a confined space it is very hard to completely avoid the fumes unless you stay a long way away and after doing these tests even the thought of IPA fumes makes me feel sick.

Thanks for the link to Tinny's IPA stove page, it was interesting that Tinny had to add 30% water to stop the soot. FYI Alcohol/water mixes and flames are covered in part two of this series which will be published soon.

Hi Kevin,

"Will there be a follow up comparing the different types of solid fules "Esbit style" coming?"

If a part three of this series happens it is a possibility that we will look at including solid fuels.


Tony

Excellent, if mind-boggling work, gents.

I hesitate to even bring this up but alcohol regs vary wildly state-by-state in the States, and even county-by-county in some of our more "enlightened" states. The upshot is Everclear and its equivalents are spottily available at best. Myself, I'd have to drive to Nevada.

That said, based on your meticulous research I'm stocking up the next I find myself in South Shore :-)

Cheers (in every sense),

--Rick

Thanks, James. That is the fuel I use, it's sold locally; I was not aware of the pdf you provided, I noted in it:

"Carcinogenicity: components have not been identified as carcinoogens by NTP, OSHA, IARC."

>FYI Alcohol/water mixes and flames are covered in part two of this series which will be published soon.<

Hi, Tony,

I am anxiously awaiting the next installment.

-Mark

I've used alcohol stoves for many years, from Trangias to cottage industry stoves to homemade ones. But what's always bothered me is the fuel itself. Denatured alcohol (at least in California) gives me headaches and bothers my breathing, regardless of whether the fuel is freshly poured or burning. I've tried many brands of denatured alcohol from marine stores and hardware stores without satisfaction. The alternative, high proof ethanol like Everclear, is illegal in California.

But Roger's and Tony's article got me thinking about pure methanol, re Tinny's comments. Yes, it's toxic if ingested (so is white gasoline) but if it burns cleanly... So I went to an auto parts store and got some yellow Heet. Surprise! Methanol has little discernable smell whether poured fresh or while burning. No headaches, no nausea - and no corruption of the wilderness experience with noxious odors. I will still stand back from a stove while it's burning, but I won't feel the need to walk in circles to avoid the vapors.

I did some tests using a Caldera Cone, 450ml Snow Peak Titanium cup with lid, and an open flame burner (tea candle tin mounted at approximately the same height as the orifice of the Caldera stove (the tea candle tin makes it easy to recover the unburned fuel for measurement)). My results tracked those in the article: the two fuels (denatured alcohol and methanol) had about the same heating rates but methanol required about 25% more mass.

Hey, I'll gladly carry the extra fuel to avoid the fumes from additives - if that's what I'm avoiding. Any bio/chemists out there?

Hi Mark

> I am anxiously awaiting the next installment.

not long ...

Cheers

Hi Bill

> Denatured alcohol (at least in California) gives me headaches and bothers my breathing,
Well, check the list of possible additives (or should we say 'contaminants'?) in the article! Tinny has had similar experiences, with choking fumes from 'denatured alcohol'.

I suggest that the concept of total market deregulation may have some draw-backs here. Like your health.

I am forced to agree with you that if all other sources of denatured ethanol are so toxic in California, you might be better off with methanol/HEET. I don't like it, because it is toxic to humans when ingested, but the alternatives you have seem worse.

Cheers

I haven't tried too many kinds of denatured alcohol (mostly just SLX and Sunnyside), but the one time I used Sunnyside it burned wicked sooty and blackened my pot and everything around. I only tried it that once, since I didn't have any soot while using SLX.

Might the stove have something to do with how well the stuff burns, or could there be variations in individual batches of the alcohol? Sunnyside seems a lot easier to find in my area than SLX, so it would be nice if it burned clean.

Side note: how easy is it to find yellow HEET in the summer?

Ryan,
I'm surprised at your Sunnyside results. I've use Sunnyside Denatured Alcholol for years without problems in Trangias and recently in Caldera Cones.

I'm curious about your stoves and setups as I want to avoid those problems for myself. Lack of oxygen seems the likely culprit - a windscreen that is to tight?

I note that you are using a wicked stove and from what I have seen on Tinny's site there is always a little bit of black magic there. Have you had the same results with basic non-wicked burns?

I also see that KleenStrip S-L-X is nearly a 50/50 mix of ethanol and methynol, plus 5% methyl isobutyl ketone. I don't know how that affects the burn, but it will reduce your heat output.

“Side note: how easy is it to find yellow HEET in the summer?”


Even though it’s a ‘winter’ thing, it seems pretty easy to find it all year long. I see them all the time. One of these stores will always have it: http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet/where_to_buy.aspx
I buy a year’s stash in March when most HEET sales happen.

There’s a Walmart generic version of yellow-bottled HEET and if you’re lucky enough to find it, not only is performance equal, it will save you a lot of money.

And as a non-backpacking side note: another nice thing about HEET is it can be stored forever; it doesn’t break down. So it makes a good addition to 72-hour emergency kits. Thus, if you find a good deal, stock up.

-Barry

Edited by BarryP on 05/07/2009 09:06:33 MDT.

According to the MSDS I've seen methanol is toxic by inhalation or absorption through the skin. I don't think inhalation is going to be a problem -- just don't spill your fuel bottle inside a small tight tent.

Absorbing methanol through the skin is hard to figure how bad it is. Spill 8 oz on your clothes and you'll inhale and absorb some; I don't know how much. It's not going to kill you (immediately) but what about longer term damage???

My guess is that skin absorption and inhalation are not harmful in the amounts likely in stove use, even over the 5 months of an AT thruhike. I would be a lot happier if someone who KNEW could enlighten us. Any toxicologists on BPL?

Haha. Greg, that's "wicked" as in New England Speak for "very", not a stove with a wick :)

I did only try sunnyside that once, so maybe I'll try it again. I was using a mark jurey penny stove with a loose windscreen. I've since switched to a caldera cone. I think I'll give it another try sometime this summer.

Though denatured alcohol bothers me (see my post above), I've found Sunnyside the least objectionable of the ones I've used. Burns clean and the odor is not as strong as others I've tried.

"According to the MSDS I've seen methanol is toxic by inhalation or absorption through the skin."

So is ethanol!

...and so is H20...

Tony and Roger, great work, you answered my question about which is better, that I’ve had for years. I’ve used both “real” methanol, not “Heet” and STK denatured acohol and have been wondering which is better. Now I know.

I have 55 gals of Methanol that I use to make Bio-Diesel, so basically I have a life time supply of it. Mine is about as pure as you can get it. Better then the “Heet” brand. I pay about $2 to $4 a gallon for it depending on the oil market. For me it is the best priced stuff I can get for my stoves. After seeing your information about Denatured Acohol I am inclined to stop using it, even though I use STX which is pretty clean.
I find the ultra high cost of Everclear far outweighs its weight benefit. For me, I can use Methanol and it costs me nothing (again I buy it by the 55 gal drum). I’ll take the weight penalty.

Roger I don't understand the worry about ingesting methanol. It never occurred to me to drink it. I also would never think of drinking Everclear either.

Edited by bestbuilder on 05/07/2009 15:56:00 MDT.

> KleenStrip S-L-X is nearly a 50/50 mix of ethanol and methynol, plus 5% methyl isobutyl ketone.

I am not sure I like the MIK bit. The MSDS says:

Routes of Entry: Dermal contact. Eye contact. Inhalation. Ingestion.
Toxicity to Animals:
WARNING: THE LC50 VALUES HEREUNDER ARE ESTIMATED ON THE BASIS OF A 4-HOUR EXPOSURE.
Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 1600 mg/kg [Guinea pig].
Acute dermal toxicity (LD50): 20001 mg/kg [Rabbit].
Acute toxicity of the vapor (LC50): 8000 ppm 4 hour(s) [Rat].
Chronic Effects on Humans: The substance is toxic to lungs, the nervous system, mucous membranes.
Other Toxic Effects on Humans:
Very hazardous in case of ingestion, of inhalation.
Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, permeator).

Cheers

Although I'm now attracted to methanol as a stove fuel, I might not use it when camping with children. Adults would probably observe poison warnings (I label all my fuel bottles boldly) but a child might not. Since methanol is highly toxic when ingested, even a very small amount might be lethal, especially to a child.

I think it's right the authors and BPL continue to note the cautions on methanol and its toxicity when ingested. It's best not to discount common wisdom without understanding where that wisdom came from.

BTW, thanks to Roger and Tony for all the work put into the article, and to Roger for the entire series of articles on stove properties.