Here is the challenge, typically people here try to construct a list of the the lightest pack possible. How about posting the lightest 3 season list but using the cheapest equipment that you can manage.

Here is the catch, the list has be useful for everyone, novice and advanced hikers alike.

So the the challenge is not neccessarily to just have the cheapest, lightest, or most utilitarian list. The challenge to put together something that balances all of these issues.

Edited by michaelneal on 01/20/2006 09:59:58 MST.

Homemade gear allowable? If so, I think I may have a contender pretty soon :D.

Ben

Whats the goal?

30degree comfort rating?

I have started list like this but have had problems with clothing, I will post a "gear list" and see what you think but clothing is hard, just too many options, I mean at a thrift shop you can get a hat for a dollar, but stuff like this is not alwys available and not everyone has stores like this near them. so I dont know what to put.

Edited by ryanf on 01/20/2006 13:01:12 MST.

Its really hard to do something like this without some boundaries. Definatly doable if theres no limits set on availablity and such. I mean a fully homemade set up for summer conditions can be done for very little money at all. Buy your clothes at WalMart, make your stuff from 2nds fabric, and sacrific weight or compressibility for cost with a fleece sleeping bag and your talking a summer setup for like $50.

it has to be compatible with 3 seasons so I guess down to 20 degrees, we can have two categories homemade lists and store bought lists as not everyone is capable of making their own equipment. This sort of ties into my point that it has to be realistic for both novices and experienced hikers. A homemade alcohol stove is easy enough for just about anyone to make, a homemade sleeping bag is not.

Edited by michaelneal on 01/20/2006 14:05:56 MST.

While I'm sure the winner will be someone who REALLY knows how to shop the sales, this thread may give lots of great info to people who are intimidated by high-priced UL gear. I would request that wherever possible, contributors reveal their sources for gear/material/whatever. That way, the rest of us can tag along.

Ben

Michael,

Good Idea! This will appeal to most of the cheap bastards and could be fun.

Here is a couple ideas for your Cheapest UL Gear List contest!

· Gear must be Non-Sale Price. Claims of fantastic sales are sometimes hard to prove and since this is a competition might as well make it more challenging.

· If there is a tie were 2 of the Cheapest UL Gear List are submitted at the identical lowest cost a fair tie-breaker would be to go with the Lowest Weight Cheapest UL Gear List.

Regards

Edited by FastWalker on 01/20/2006 17:03:39 MST.

Homemade gear?
That's going to be a problem. Me, I make almost everything except headlamps and some clothing. It hardly seems fair. Would we include materials costs? And how?

On the other hand, a boughten-only gear list would be useful for folks such as Scoutmasters. I met one the other day who works with a troup of poor rural kids in Arkansas. He didn't think they could backpack because of gear costs.

Maybe if Tyvek or other roll goods could be included and the make-it-yourself was limited to non-sewing jobs, then youth leaders could have a realistic guide.

well I think we have established some general guidlines, I think democracy should decide in the end what list is best taking into consideration all of these concerns. You can post both homemade gear lists, store bought lists and a combination of both but I think the winner should have the most realistic, inexpensive, and light list for hikers of all levels of experience.

If somone wants to try to make rules for this contest feel free but I think it needs to be a combination of the factors I mentioned.

If something is homemade but requires special equipment, skills, or alot of time to make it may not necessarily be the cheapest option even if it appears to be at first. One example, many people do not own sewing machines these days so sewing a quilt may be more expensive than actually buying a decent bag for many people.

So cost of materials and equipment and even time can be a big factor.

I agree with these other general rules mentioned before

· Gear must be Non-Sale Price. Claims of fantastic sales are sometimes hard to prove and since this is a competition might as well make it more challenging.

· If there is a tie were 2 of the Cheapest UL Gear List are submitted at the identical lowest cost a fair tie-breaker would be to go with the Lowest Weight Cheapest UL Gear List.

Edited by michaelneal on 01/20/2006 20:31:41 MST.

I agree with those rules above. 1] Non-sale price only. 2] Cheap is the main goal, but weight is the tie-breaker. 3] 3-season suitable.

I'll keep a guideline for myself to limit DIY gear to items that can be completed from 0 to finished, with no prior skill, in about a half-hour or less. Aiming for the introductory hiker who wants to minimize total investment of both money and time.

I'm looking forward to the other lists.
-Mark

This could be a lot of fun but it could also break down into quibbling over details unless there is a bit more structure. Topics I think we ought to reach some agreement on:

1) What are we weighing? My own vote would be everything you leave the trailhead with less the big 3 consumables (food, water, fuel)

2) What weight constitutes UltraLight? 15lbs FSO? 20? 10?

3) I'm a big fan of MYOG but I think to be fair you have to cost it assuming that you start with no tools and include the tools cost. If you buy a tool that can be used in making more than one item then you can split the cost between the items.

4) I'm also a scouter and appreciate that a majority of 11-17 yr olds aren't gonna successfully sew a tarptent or pack or insulated jacket but I wouldn't let the needs of youth group leaders rule the roost on this. Most of us are capable of picking thru the submissions and assembling a kit using the pieces we find workable. Notice that I did *NOT* say that youth are incapable of sewing ... just that you'd go broke if you bet on 100 of them sewing their own kit.

5) When using recycled items (a can for a pot, a soda bottle for water etc) I'd vote that the cost be $0.00 as long as it is from an item that the mythical typical person might reasonably use in their day-to-day life.

6) Regarding sale prices ... I'd be OK allowing verifyable nationally advertised sale prices. Example, REI brand nylon convertable pants are typically priced approx $50 but anyone who watches their sales for a year will have 2-3 opportunitied to buy then for $35.

7) We do need to set a minimum temp. Here in MN, 20F would cover most 3 season work. But what ever is agreed works for me.

8) Lastly, I'd vote that if the consensus is that an item can serve multiple people you ought to be able to pro-rate the cost and weight. Example, if two people can get by with an 8x10 tarp for a sleeping shelter I'd vote to count half the cost and weight.

Edited by jcolten on 01/20/2006 22:51:52 MST.

>8) Lastly, I'd vote that if the consensus is that an item can serve multiple people you ought to be able to pro-rate the cost and weight. Example, if two people can get by with an 8x10 tarp for a sleeping shelter I'd vote to count half the cost and weight.


This thread reminded me that I had been meaning to make a cheap plastic tarp. The first chapter in Ray Jardine's The Ray-Way Tarp Book describes the "poly-tarp", a 10x14 piece of 3-mil polyethylene plastic which was used to shelter four adults. The 3-mil plastic was also used for ground sheets. I think it will be tough to find a cheaper and lighter 4-scout shelter, which weighs about 9 oz./person at a cost of about $2/person (including guylines and stakes) and can be made by the scouts within a few minutes. Guylines can be made from Venetian blind cord, which costs about $2.50 for 50 ft. (enough for one tarp) and weighs about 1 oz. For tent stakes, thin steel or aluminum rod can be bought in bulk, cut to length, and bent in a vise; six stakes would cost about $2 and weigh less than 4 oz.

A single-person shelter could be made from Husky Contractor Clean-Up Bags, which are 4 ft. x 5.5 ft. (cut open) 3-mil poly. Two bags taped together with packing tape would probably hold reliably, yielding a 5.5 ft x 8 ft tarp weighing about 15 oz. for less than $7, including guylines and stakes.



As for stoves, most of the do-it-yourself alcohol can-stove designs involve sharp objects and tools. However, the SuperCat stove (the description is on BPL somewhere) involves nothing more than a cat food can and a hole punch (stove weight is 0.3 oz, and it acts as its own pot stand). Consider the Robinson Cat Stove for multi-person cooking. But probably the lightest stove+fuel solution, also easily made and promoting fire-building skills for scouts, is Ryan Faulkner's "1.5oz wood stove" (BPL thread). Cost of stove: free (tool required is hole punch, can punch or old scissors, which are household items).

Edited by Otter on 01/21/2006 13:58:39 MST.

A couple options for cooking gear would be that mini wood stove of mine and an antigravitygear pot. or a cheaper and lighter option which I like better would be a homemade elite style stove and 24oz energy drink can pot.

Just a question?

is this supposed to be a contest, I think it would be more sucessful if we worked together to form the cheapest UL kit ever. I mean look at what we did for the SUL winter challenge, if it was a contest, I dont know how well it would have turned out.

I've thought about making some sturdy ultralight backpacks for my nephews rather than spending $$ on something they'll soon outgrow and/or destroy. So I'll just make the packs out of trash (bags).

I took an empty bag that held 40 lb. of pellet-stove pellets; I think it's 3- or 4-mil poly. I made shoulder straps (fixed length) from 1.8-mil packing tape, sticky against sticky with about 4-6 inches of the tape stuck to the bag above and below where the strap attaches. If the strap is attached a bit below the top of the bag, the top can be rolled closed. This is a pretty beefy pack: I put 40 lb. of pellets in it and walked around for a while without causing any damage to the pack, shoulder straps or my shoulders. Shoulder strap padding, if needed, is easily made by taping on an old polyester sock or a thin piece of closed-cell foam. External pockets can be made by taping on cut-up bags, zip-lock bags or plastic mesh of the desired size. There are several ways to make the fixed-length shoulder straps adjustable. Repairs are easily made in the field with a bit of extra packing or duct tape.

The result is a waterproof 1400ci (23l) backpack that weighs 2.1 oz and costs about a nickel to make. One household with a pellet stove could furnish an entire troop of scouts with free bags over the course of a single winter, and $5 of packing tape will make over 100 backpacks. Even if you go out and buy trash compactor or lawn bags of your desired size, the cost is still less than $1.

Edited by Otter on 01/21/2006 14:01:16 MST.

>an antigravitygear pot. or a cheaper and lighter option which I like better would be a homemade elite style stove and 24oz energy drink can pot.


I prefer the 24 oz. Heineken 'keg' (1.2 oz including its own lid) because it's sturdier, but at the same price (free) and a fraction of an ounce less weight Ryan's 24 oz. energy drink can will probably get the nod. For a larger, more stable pot for two I use the Mirro 1l aluminum grease pot available for about $5 at WalMart (4.3 oz with its own lid or 3.0 oz with a foil lid). Too bad Heineken doesn't make a '40'; they do, however, make a 5-liter keg which would be a good size for patrol cooking on a #10-can wood stove.


RyanF wrote:
>I think it would be more sucessful if we worked together to form the cheapest UL kit ever.


I think this is a great idea, since I wasn't planning on coming up with an entire kit and I'm more interested in everybody else's suggestions anyway. I've got three nephews that slogged under heavy, wet, ill-fitting gear (including jeans and 5-pound backpacks) last summer, and this summer I want it to be different.

Edited by Otter on 01/21/2006 13:30:39 MST.

The large Sterno can makes a good one cup 'pot' weighing 0.3 with a 22 gauge wire bail and high temperature silicone pads for easy handling. And if you cut a Heineken down to hold 2 cups (just above the top flange) it makes a strong pot weighing only 0.7 with a wire bail and silicone pads.

I think Ray Jardine's BB is a great place to start for cheap and lightweight gear. Make a few changes to his gear choices such as: alcohol stove instead of MSR gas stove, Equinox poncho-tarp instead of tarp and rainwear, Aquamira instead of unfiltered water and ramen noodles instead of corn pasta:)

Also Campmor brand clothing is cheap and could satisfy basic clothing requirements. Campmor and Kelty have 'el cheapo' down sleeping bags. And of course there is always slumberjack!

I vote for:
Shelter: Tyvek pohcho/tarp. Multiple use. Material cost, $6. Weight, 13 oz in 5.5 X 9. Breathable, waterproof, good emergency bivy, versatile shelter, safer for kids, can be made by kids.

What do yall think about the heaviest and most expensive part of this project: the sleeping bag/quilt? I vote for a quilt, preferably one that can be used as a serape (similar to JacksRBetter's whatchamacallit) or a cloak to substitute for a jacket in camp. But after that I'm stuck. Perhaps a dime store sleeping bag could be cut down, but I havn't gone shopping.

for a really cheap, 30 degree, synthetic, 2.3lb sleeping bag
go to www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com

some pics of the $25 bag


not quite as beautiful as a mont bell bag, oh well.


doule sided zipper for foot box ventilation


you cant really see the draft coller and draft tube, but its there


the best way I could think of to show the width of the bag

Tyvek poncho/tarp sounds good for a do it yourselfer. How about a vinyl poncho (9oz, $3) and a roll of 3-4mm plastic sheeting for tarp and groundcloth? Now we're talking supa-cheap!!

Sleeping bag: I think someone's gonna have to pony up a little cash for this one. How about, "grandma, can I have $50 to buy a cheap generic sleeping bag?"

Backpack: hmmmm. generic external frame?? canvas bookbag?? grandma gatewood laundry bag?? that interesting pellet stove bag idea??

I have one of those. It's a good value for the price.

You can drop about 2oz from the weight by amputating the stuff sack's compression straps ... it's a very tight stuff and they provide little (if any) volume reduction.

But even though I'm a warm sleeper and that bag would need a lot of help to keep me comfortable at 30F .... probably OK at 40F in a tent, perhaps 45F under a tarp if there's a little wind.

But that is not a complaint, it has the side benefit of 'forcing' one towards multi-use clothing. I'll want to have warmer clothing for 30F mornings and sub-40F evenings in camp anyway.

I'm planning on demo-ing it to our scouts as a low cost option for summer backpacking.

Edited by jcolten on 01/22/2006 15:59:00 MST.

Here's another item, $10 + shipping, 3.2 oz.:
Sportshell
This is a 3.2 oz. Tyvek W/B windshirt with a little rain protection. No hood, no zipper flap. Just the thing to wear under a poncho to keep your arms dry or anytime a windshirt is indicated. An alternative to megabucks windshirts.

Edited by vickrhines on 01/22/2006 19:26:25 MST.

Stakes:
Coathanger 'U' stakes. Cost = $0, Weight = .25 for 6 and 4 inch legs (legs are different lengths). As light as titanium and hold better than 6" skewer stakes.

Sleeping pad:
Coleman green foam, 50" X 20" tapered, Weight = 5.5 oz, Cost = $6 to 10.

Another sleeping bag contender for the ultra-light & ultra-cheap list is the Lafuma GR Junior 33-Degree Mummy Sleeping Bag. No Tax, No Shipping fee: $29.99

Specifications:
· Temperature rating: 33 degrees Fahrenheit
· Size: 5 feet, 7 inches x 2 feet, 3 inches
· Stuff sack size: 12 x 7 inches
· Weight: 2 pounds, 2 ounces
· Shell: Polyamide
· Lining: Polycotton

A possible consideration for the scouting crowd.

Dirt cheap -serviceable but not fabulous- backpacks can be made with an XL stuff sack, and some thru-hiker premade shoulder straps... depnding on the size and material of the stuff sack, youve got a bag between 2-3000ci, weight of about 5-10oz, and a cost of about $20. Less if your a good scrounger, like if you pull shoulder straps off of a $2 bookbag from the thrift store.

A Ray-Way type quilt can be made easily skills wise, and if you source your own materials you can make it for about $25-35. About 24oz give or take depending on how its made. Or that MajorSurplus bag for $25.... Or split the difference and "edit" that MajorSurplus bag into a quilt with the help of a seamripper, some scissors, a needle, and a few yards of thread.

A Tyvek Poncho/Tarp from Goodling Outdoor covers your rain gear and your shelter. Im not sure on the weight here, but its gotta be less than 1lbs, and costs $50. You could probably make one for much less.

USGI Surplus sleep mat, $5

A $10 sportshell

WalMart/Athletic Wear track suit - $25 about 1.5lbs

Walmart fleece sweat shirt - $6 (on clearance unfortunatly, Im sure they will have something similar again) about 8oz

Socks (nylon) - $5 each pair

Hollowtop Tire Sandals - $5 or less. Not super easy to make, but they come with a 50,000 mile warranty :)

Pepsi Can Stove - free

Walmart Greasepot - $6

TacoBell Spork - Free

1 liter water bottle - $1.50 or so.

Mora knife 4oz or so - $9 or less - I know there are lighter knives, but for the price, you will not find a better quality knife. It is also fixed blade, which in the event of an emergency situation is HIGHLY desireable.

25ft 550 cord w/ inner core lines- $3

Toss in Vicks coathanger stakes... under 2 oz total. Free.

That list is about $180 or so... and under 10lbs, easily.

Im not sure I missed anything of major significance but I might have. Oh Well.

Edited by RavenUL on 01/24/2006 00:43:02 MST.

regarding the $25 sleeping bag, do you think it would be servicable at 20 degrees with a space blanket in reserve for a vapor barrier and a chemical body warmer just in case?

Edited by michaelneal on 01/23/2006 16:20:12 MST.

The local Lowe's Home Improvement has the Gerber Ultralight LST for $9.98. Mine weighs in at .5 oz.

.1 oz less than manufacturer's spec.

Edited by mfreyman on 01/23/2006 17:56:02 MST.

How about this:

Outdoor Products Dragonfly External Frame Youth Pack $39.97 on sale, regular price is $50

Outdoor Products Pinnacle Internal Frame Pack $39.97 on sale, regular price is $60

Euerka! Getaway 2500 Daypack $38.42 regular price

Certainly not free, but thats about 6-7 hours of work at minimum wage!!

>The local Lowe's Home Improvement has the Gerber Ultralight LST for $9.98. Mine weighs in at .5 oz.


That looks nice; I may pick one up. But you can get an ultra-cheap knife at most swap meets and military surplus stores. Mine is a made-in-China stainless steel 1.5" half-serrated blade (0.6 oz, $2).

How many seasons and where is our target. Much of the country can claim a 30 degree bag as 3 season. I'm in Central Texas and it hasn't gotten below 32 for more than 4-5 days in the last two winters.

If you insist on 20 degrees, most of the ultralight sleeping rigs go out the window - regardless of cost.

Where?

Jim Colten sort of set the stage with 20deg in MN... however I would agree that 3 season is MOST places does not generally dip into subfreezing, so I dont see much need to define 3 season much below 30degF.

Yeah,
Isn't Deluth the coldest place in the lower 48? Ice out by July 4? Ice fishing in August? Get than man an igloo!

Swiss Gear Hiking Staff $9.95 Wal-Mart, 2 poles for $20.

Jim Colten has no problem with the group defining a three season min temp target at 30F ... that would be a four season temp where he was born (south of interstate 10).

As for Duluth ... Duluth ain't particularily cold. If you want cold in MN, go to International Falls, Tower or Embarrass .... especially Embarrass.

Edited by jcolten on 01/24/2006 21:15:40 MST.

>Swiss Gear Hiking Staff $9.95 Wal-Mart, 2 poles for $20.


Those look decent; do you know the weight? I can't find the weight on the 'net.

But sticks are free...and a bamboo pole ($0, 13 oz) makes a great staff. I've used one for several years.

http://site283.webhost4life.com/afmservices/trailgear/falk-sleeping-bag.htm

here is a cheap way to make a sleeping bag, although it seems a bit sketchy to me

The Wal-mart/Swiss Gear poles I have weigh 12oz and 11.9oz.

Looks like a Pop Tart for a grizzly :)

I had thought much the same about using one of the Adventure Medical emergency bivvies and a 40F bag like a Lafuma 600. I'd expect it to be sweaty. Might be okay in a desert/low humidity area.

I still need to build a Tyvek bivy and try it.

another option....

dump the tyvek poncho/tarp, and carry a tube tent,an emergency poncho from Coghlans, and a garbage bag (the garbage bag is cut into "Colin's Kilt".)

Not sure on the weight, but you can find all 3 items (if you look around) for less than $10.

That saves $40 from my original list... so thats a gear cost of roughly $140. and the weight might go up, but its still under 10lbs, so Id argue that for purposes, its an insignificant weight increase.

dump the grease pot and replace with a tin can with bailing wire handle. saves $6, and the one I made a minute ago weighs roughly the same as my GreasePot...

Using the Majorsurplus sleeping bag as the price point, and editing the above items on the list, Ive got a base gear price of $115.

Edited by RavenUL on 01/25/2006 23:37:00 MST.

Another list mod...

24x12inch Nylon stuff sack from Gomberg Kites - $7. 2700ci

1-1.5inch nylon webbing, stitched to the bag to make a shoulder strap (approx $1)

$8for the pack....

Reviewing the list....

$112

Getting there.

Anyone got anything better?

Joe,
Use a Heineken can instead of tin and drop to 0.8 or so.

We could use emergency ponchos, but face it, they shred instantly. Can we reasonably go that far? I've rescued folks in the Smokies who tried to get by with them on the trail and got soaked. How about 3-4 mil drip cloth turned into a cloak as demonstrated in several posts and links? It could serve as either rain gear or ground sheet.

RE: bag
You bet. You described my first UL pack, circa 1974. Add tie-down patches and mount a small stuff sack on top in a 'T' shape for more capacity. Worked for me.

The Heine can works, but $$$ is my number 1 priority, and I was trying to keep people like Scouts (though not exclusivly) in mind. Is there a cheap, non alcohol, can that will help cut weight and be less than $5?

The Drop cloth idea is probably better than the emergency poncho. Pro-rating the cost of 3mil poly drop cloth gives a very full poncho/cloak for well under 3 dollars (per person)

Get radical and use a Sterno can. ONly holds a cup, weighs only 0.3 oz. Works great. Available empty from friendly caterers or full from any supermarket.

Is an 8oz cook cup big enough for cooking?

"The Drop cloth idea is probably better than the emergency poncho. Pro-rating the cost of 3mil poly drop cloth gives a very full poncho/cloak for well under 3 dollars (per person)"

Especially if you teach them Pierre's brilliant technique (which is what I think Vick is getting at)

"Is an 8oz cook cup big enough for cooking?"
Yes, f you get them to buy into freezer bag cooking.

Edited by jdmitch on 01/28/2006 10:26:51 MST.

Carol Crooker had a great idea: screw a small alligator clip to a Microlight so it clips on a hat brim or visor. Trouble is, you can't adjust it up or down, and if you aren't wearing a hat or cap, you have to clip it to your eyebrow. Ouch!

For 0.2 oz, you can put elastic on a folded and stitched piece of webbing and clip the light to the fold. It will swivel up and down just like the big guys. Take a 3" strip of 3/4" webbing (or anything else, really), fold it double, stitch 3/4" from the fold, run elastic through a double-slot tensioner to provide the headband adjustment, stitch the end of the elastic to the remaining legs of the webbing which spread out against your forehead. A patch of fleece will make it more comfortable. Just clip the light to the fold and move it up and down to your heart's content. With a fleece backing, this rig will weigh 0.2 alone and 0.4 with the Microlight and gator clip attached. Not too shabby. With $3 Microlight knockoffs, its about as cheap as they come, too.

>Is an 8 oz cup big enough for cooking?>

Is for me. I've used that sized "pot" for 9 months at a time.

It takes some getting used to, and it's pretty much limited to boiling water for 'bag and set', so obviously, it isn't for everyone.

Soda cans crater easily, are not very efficient, and not very stable. For scouts, the pot that comes in the standard mess kit is pretty good. Carry the pot and the cup and leave the rest at home except for car camping.

Otherwise, the Walmart grease pot is the next choice. Trouble is, you need a pot lifter unless you add a bail to the pot. It is also hard to clean that reinforcing groove around the inside, and that is a concern when camping with kids. I would cut the rim off and use a 19 gauge stainless wire bail through double holes on each side. The 19 gauge wire is stiff enough for pouring.

Edited by vickrhines on 01/30/2006 20:57:42 MST.

Karen's World has directions for making a blanket or waterproof cloak that will work as a poncho AND a tarp.

Karen's Homepage

She also has lots of fun kid stuff for the scouters.

Edited by vickrhines on 01/30/2006 21:10:30 MST.

Vick here's another tried and tested idea. Glue a small button size piece of Velcro to hold the micro light to your hat brim or visor.

Regards,

Roger,
Yep, but if you aren't wearing the right hat and if you want to adjust the beam up or down, yer SOL. I used to put velcro on my glasses frames - then I got rid of glasses.

Michael Neal,
Have you put these ideas on a spreadsheed yet?

I could (and have) done this with garage sale and thrift store gear. As some have noted here, that is a process of opportunity and location, and I spend a fair amount of time on it-- it is a hobby, no doubt about it. Thrift store and garage sale shopping success is directly proportional to time spent.

Next order of bargains: sporting good store sales. These are good for small LED lights, knives and multi-tools, shoes, and sports-oriented clothing like socks, shorts, wicking fabric items like briefs and tees, sunglasses. These stores are very good for running-based gear that transfers so readily to UL hiking. This is where I would go for a cheap sleeping bag and a blue foam pad. Big 5 and GI Joes are examples in my area (Seattle).

Clothing discounters like Burlington Coat Factory, Ross, Marshalls, and TJ Max can offer a lot of wicking sports garments, shoes, socks, briefs, hats, gloves, parkas, rain gear, wind gear and sunglasses. I often see Columbia and simlar brands.

The big box stores like Walmart and Target have a lot of clothing and gadgets. Target has seasonal sales on Gerber items. The Walmart grease pot is well known. I don't have a Walmart close by, so I shop there infrequently, but I did note that they have water bladders cheap.

If you live close to an REI store, the garage sale area is a good place to check. This is where they sell returns and many are "just because" returns. I got a pair of Vasque Velocity shoes for $20 this way.

On the digital side:

Ebay is another area of opportunity and time spent, but the deals are there the range of items is enormous.

Craig's List is the garage sale of the Internet.

There are outlet offerings from most of the major on-line gear retailers: REI, Altrec, Campmor, Backcountry, EMS, Dicks, LL Bean, and others have clearance or sale pages.

On-line tips and caveats: don't be impulsive, know your gear, watch out for knock-offs (North Face is really picked on for this) and make comparisons. I have found a few items on Ebay that were new products to me and a quick search found them to be readily available and for the same or less cost. Shipping costs often negate the bargain, although it can be offset be the convience and driving is getting expensive. I was going to hit the "buy" button on a Maglie LED conversion kit and stopped to research and found that my local REI offered it at the same price, and I didn't have to pay shipping, which came to about 40% of the cost of the actual product. I could afford to wait!

There is a lot of concentration on the cost of the "big three," but the little items add up too. Things like bug juice, sunscreen, Aqua Mira, sunglasses, lighting, compass, whistle, pack towel, knife/multi-tool, first aid, and hygine items can really add up. Clothing is a major cost, and those "intermediate" items like trekking poles can put a strain on the wallet too.

Some of my favorite buys for new gear:

Lafuma sleeping bag: 800 Extreme, GI Joes, $50.
Micro LED lights: Ebay, Campmor, and Big 5, $4-$5 each.
Open Country 1.1 quart aluminum boiler: Campmor, $9.95.
Granite Gear Wisp pack: Ebay, new, $50.
Black Diamond Approach trekking poles: Ebay, new, $30

As far as used stuff, here are some real prices I have paid:

Mountain Hardwear Pack Pants, $12
Jansport external frame pack, $10
Mountain Hardwear polyfill bag (~30F), $10
REI Polayrgaurd HV bag (~20f), $10
Vasque Velocity shoes, $20
Nike Air Wallowa boots, $24
Marmot polyfill sweater $10
REI, Patagonia, Ex-Officio shorts: $2-$4 each
North Face convertible pants, $20
Patagonia, Nike, Under Armour, Hind wicking tops, $3-$4 each
Marmot DriClime windshirt, $12
Nalgene bottles, $2 each
Bolle, Suncloud, Maui Jim, Ray Ban sunglasses, $2 pair
Nike and New Balance wind/running pants $5 pair
Marmot and REI 1/2 zip base layer tops, $5 each
Marmot fleece sweater $10
GoLite Hut1 tarp, $70
Olympus Stylus camera, $3
RidgeRest pads $2-$3 each
REI rucksack (~15OOci) $3
Mittens with fleece liners $2
Fleece beanie $2

Yesterday I bought a pair of Patagonia "Baggy" shorts for $4, a pair of RedLedge rain pants for $2.50, a pair of Speedo Surf Walker water shoes for $1.99 and a Nike runner's wind vest for $2.

The hunt is fun and can be profitable. I've run into all kinds of things I wouldn't have tried if I hadn't come across it at a yard sale or thrift store.

Sorry that I've posted a little late in the game. Anyway, I think the difficulty in comparing any two of these lists is the fuzzy "boundaries." In other words, the items you assume you can just pick up around the household or mooch from your old hiking or athletic gear.

That sleeping bag is quite a deal from a performance/cost standpoint. Great find! My contribution for the shelter part:

Tarp: 9'X12' 2mil plastic drop cloth. $3.99, 17 ounces.

Groundcloth: 9'X12' 2mil plastic drop cloth. $3.99, 8-17 ounces depending on desired footprint

Guylines: Mason twine (bright yellow). $1.99-$3.99 depending on diameter. #18 is ridiculously light but probably not suitable for exposed areas. 1.5 oz for 50'? I think that sounds right.

Stakes: Aluminum gutter nails. 0.5 oz each, $0.50 each. I prefer bringing along 12, for a total of $6.00 and 6 oz.

"Tie outs" - Micro Grip Clips. $8 for a set of 4. Negligible weight...assume 1 oz.?

Technique: You can use a sheet bend at each corner of the tarp with mason twine and stake each lines out. You can run a line along the middle of the tarp to create an A Frame using sticks or hiking poles, with both ends staked out. Then you can attach two grip clips on each long side. Finally, you can run a single from line from stake to clip to stake to clip to stake. Kind of like a zig-zag.

Anyhow, the whole set-up costs you $24 or so, with a weight of around 35 oz. or so. If anything, it might be a good intro to tarp camping for the wary.

Caveat: It probably won't fair well in high winds and exposed areas. I'm biased towards assuming sheltered spots in the woods given that I live in NEw England.

Edited by tonyabad on 03/25/2006 22:57:21 MST.

Ide like to add the 5 oz $5 6x8 industrial PVC tarp/cape from GG (sheet bends for rope) and a 1 oz $5 AAA dorcy flashlight from WalMart. My sub 2 oz stove/pot/stand (tealight/coke can) is basically free. Could get it all to fit in a large mesh school pack from wally world $10 11 oz. Bleach for chemical water treatment (.5 oz) is basically free. An official orange shovel with 'leave no trace' written on it should be included, as this is for novices too. Bring an emergency bivy and 4 shots of golden grain (9 oz, $18) for 30* temps (I basically did on new years eve, about 35*, except no bivy and lots of clothes still in my pack)instead of a sleeping bag.

I've managed to get 4 nights in this $25 sleeping bag all with the unzipped bag drapped over me like a quilt, on a std thermarest pad in a TarpTent Cloudburst.

night 1
* forecast was for 30F but only got down to 37F, no wind
* was wearing light wool socks, light wt polyester long underwear tops and bottoms, rei brand nylon pants and long sleeve shirt, generic light wt acrylic scull cap
* was too warm

night 2
* 40F, no wind
* wore liner socks, rei brand nylon pants and long sleeve shirt, generic light wt acrylic skull cap
* was warm

night 3 and 4
* no thermometer, but lows approx 45, no wind
* wore rei brand nylon pants and short sleeve T-shirt and a very thin skull cap
* was quite warm
*

Big 5 Sporting goods carries a little LED light with output similar to the Microlight Photon that has a clip and a swivel. The put them on sale for $3-$4 a couple times a year. I'll try to remember to get the brand name and model number.

The Lafuma Extreme 800 for $50 at GI Joes is a sweet deal. I got the last two at the GI Joes I was in, and they said that they don't expect to get them again. The stuffed size is tiny, and for +40F it's plenty warm. The '800' is the *total* weight of the bag in grams--under 2 pounds for $50.

Once in a while you can get a used Luxury Lite pack directly from LL. $65 delivered. There are none available right now, but if you keep an eye on the LL website... Other than that, the mesh Wal-Mart bookbag mentioned elsewhere in this thread sounds like a great deal.

The blue foam $7.99 sleeping pad is very light (though it is bulky).

Any DIY alcohol stove is practically free and also very light.

Wal-Mart's Swiss Gear tent & trekking pole for $35 has a *shipping weight* of 2.5 pounds, and that *includes* the trekking pole. I have no personal experience with this tent, but for $35 you could buy three, have two trekking poles + spare and throw a tent away every other year--it'd still be a good deal.

Re-use a plastic water/soda bottle for free.

Add a cheap aluminum mess kit for under $10 and you've got all the major items covered for well under $200.

No need to buy the Walmart tent. They sell the poles separately for under $10.

This is for 30* and considering the most minimal sewing skills- * = homemade
cost oz
*8.5x5 Cape/tarp$18 8
5 Alum Stakes $3 2.5
Mylar Gr. cl. $1 1
Thinlite Pad $8 2
Surplus 30* bag $25 36
*Stuffsac pack $6 4
*Coke can pot/tealight stove $1 1.2 oz (ziploc cooking)
2 1L coke bottles$2 3.75
*Med Kit $5 2 minimal
Dorcy AAA LED $5 1
Bleach for water$0 0.5
Survivo 5-1 $5 1.5
Toothbrush & Bronners $2 1
Plastic Spoon and Knife $0 0.5

That 30* bag solves the main problem. So light too. The stuff sac pack can be made by folding a large peice of silnylon in half and sewing the edges, cutting small corners off the bottom, sewing 2" webbing on the back-top for shoulder contact and 3/4" webbing to connecting to the bottom where corners are cut. Drawstring or roll top closure. Small packs need no compression. The 4 lb base will be easy on the pack.

Total is $81 and 65 oz, or 4 lbs 1 oz

"Wal-Mart's Swiss Gear tent & trekking pole for $35"

That tent looks pretty good-- it has some ventilation built in too. I would expect to give it a good going over with some seam sealer. I think the real test would be how it does in the wind, but that is the nemisis of all UL tents. Considering it has a floor and some bug screening, it sounds like a good deal. Like you said, the 2.5 pound weigh includes the pole and I'll bet the stakes are heavy too. They mention a duffle bag for storage-- I'll bet that's good for 6oz right there.

Edited by dwambaugh on 05/23/2006 13:53:12 MDT.

How about a BPL Esbit wing stove and a Stansport #270 aluminum canteen cup? Add a little tin foil for a windscreen and lid and you're ready to boil up to 3 cups of water at a time for $6.98 and 6oz pack weight.

I looked around for canteen cups and all the US versions are stainless steel and thick at that. The Stansport is made in China and has the butterfly wire handles and is 4.7 oz. it could be lighter yet-- the gauge is complete overkill.

I'll add this to the mix. It's by no means ultralight, but it is quite light; I thought it may be useful in the context of the thread. A complete rig from bag to framed pack to food (and almost everything else, including compass, rope & knife) for only $136.95.
Complete kit weighs 17.88lbs including the bonus of "$25 worth of free Mountain House freeze dried food."

I've ordered from Major Surplus & Survival several times - they've got great prices, excellent selection & speedy shipment times. I have no experience with this particular kit, however.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to post the link!
http://www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MSS&Product_Code=115940&Category_Code=23

Edited by elockwood on 06/16/2006 13:47:38 MDT.

Wow. It took a while to find that kit, but dang - that's quite a deal. FYI, the item # is 115940.

It's a <4lb external frame pack! The sleeping bag is heavy at 3.5lbs and there's plenty of 'extra' stuff you could trim from that kit to help get the weight down. If you bought one of the cheap <2lb sleeping bags referenced here you could probably get that kit under 15lbs and still spend less than $200.

You might want to cut the 'two-person tube tent' and call it a tarp while using the poncho as a groundsheet.

In any case, you've got to admit that kit's a pretty impressive bargain.

Sorry that I forgot the link, Tom. (edited and posted in above message)

The sleeping bag is actually 4.5lbs (not 3.5) - it definately could be cheaply replaced. I assume that the tube tent is a plastic emergency shelter, and it would be best to use a tarp instead. In fact, the kit does come with a tarp, but it's only 5x7.

I agree that it's a great deal. I was almost tempted to get one to keep in the car and/or use as a loaner kit.

It is a good idea, but suffers in the details. As i was going through the list, I was thinking about tossing this or that, the relative weights, etc, and it comes down to a waste of time and resources.

IMHO, it would be better to teach the principles of UL hiking and let them seek out their gear, learning to make the comparisons and create their system. "Teaching them to fish" is what I am after.

If an supplier or manufacturer had the courage, they could offer beginner kits, but I could see the liability issues raising their ugly heads: some neophyte would go out and get hurt or killed using the kit and go after the supplier syaing, "XYZ Ultralight sold me this kit for hiking and I got wet and cold, and I got lost and..."

Bad News on the SwissGear tent. I checked the local wallyworld today and they had a few of these in stock (marked down to $30). I don't know where they got the 2.5lb shipping weight from, because right on the outside of the package it said it was over 5lbs. I'm sure weight could be lost with lighter stakes and carry bag, but even after removing the trekking pole weights this tent is still going to be around 4lbs. Not bad for $30, but since its a single wall it can't be split between two people so one person gets stuck with the full weight of the tent. I still may pick one up for giggles...

On a side note, has anyone ever put a good eye towards the footwear at Walmart? While none of it is great (and some not even "good"), some of the boots and trailrunners might be passable for a season. At the younger ages, a scout may grow out of shoes in one year. I can understand the need to protect their feet, but if they aren't doing a lot of hiking it might be a cheap option if they don't already own a pair of running shoes.

Now I am going to go and wash after all this talk of the merits of wallyworld merchandise...

So the Swiss Gear tent is indeed too good to be true. It's 2.5 kilos, not pounds. Still, for price...

Wal-Mart footwear is probably great for the growing feet of the young hiker that doesn't spend too many miles on the trail. I don't know how many is too many, but I don't think I'd want Wal-Mart hikers on my kids feet for more than 20-30 miles/season. If I had a 50-mile summer planned, I'd think twice about Wal-Mart (or KMart, or Target) as a source for footwear.

Wally World is a real conundrum for me. It seems that whenever I enter a Wal-Mart looking for something specific that I never find what I'm looking for. OTOH, if I'm not sure exactly what I want I almost always find something to buy.

I recently bought a family/car camping tent at Wal-Mart. It's late in the season and that kind of stuff is on sale. I paid $64 for a Coleman like this: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3657599

I'm also conflicted about Wal-mart on a personal/social level. On one hand, they're horrible for small town economies in that they kill the local mom & pop retailers but OTOH, they sure do save the average consumer a ton of cash. For some things, I'll pay the premium at the local shop but for others...

I think someone got Kg confused with Lbs. myself.

An Ebay seller has been running auctions on the Wenzel branded version (Ridgeline) that comes with a fiberglass pole and steel pegs for $27 plus $11 shipping. He advertizes the weight as 4.5 pounds, so it may come in a shade under 4 pounds using a trekking pole or stick and some light stakes.

I would expect flakey seams and zippers, but I like the design. With some seam-sealing and some care you could get a season or two for a couple people. The emphasis is certainly on price and "reasonably" light. I wondered about cutting out 80% of the floor, but is hardly seems worth the effort for the weight and the loss of a nice ground cover.

For deals on shoes: Marshalls, Shoe Pavillion, and sometimes Ross. IN the Pacific NW, GI Joes and Big 5 run regular sales. Sierra Trading Post and REI Outlet can have some zingers if you know the brand and your size. I got my Vasque Velocity trail runners at the REI "garage sale" area for $20.

While running some errands at lunch, I perused through the recent issue of Backpacker. In their they have some sort of "Best Buy" challenge to see what you can get for your money at a variety of places, including Walmart. The intern tester actually rated the boots he bought fairly well (3 out of 5 stars). He did put them through 3 months of use and at $20 they held up pretty well (no real details offered).

I wonder if the price was taken out (and the fact that they are from WalMart) and put side by side with some boots from other manufacturers if they would have rated as high.

OK, It's a dumb question. But is Wal-mart what is frequently referred to as "Wallyworld" on these posts? I'm out west, and I figured Wallyworld was some store back east or in the southern states or something. (I realize this sounds stupid, but some areas have pretty silly names of stores... "King Soopers" supermarket in Colorado comes to mind...)

By the way, while we are on Blog Jargon, what does IMHO stand for? I see it here all the time, and IDGI (I Don't Get It) :) Thanks!

Yes. I, for one, often refer to Wal-Mart as Wally World. I don't fault you for the confusion, as I have also seen some strange retail names.

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

I prefer IMO, as mine is not always so humble...

You'll also see IME, which is Experience (better than Opinion every time).

Carol Crooker had a great idea: screw a small alligator clip to a Microlight so it clips on a hat brim or visor. Trouble is, you can't adjust it up or down, and if you aren't wearing a hat or cap, you have to clip it to your eyebrow. Ouch!



Save the weight of the alligator clip and the cap. Pierce your eyebrow instead!!! (THose young people)

Rod

"Save the weight of the alligator clip and the cap. Pierce your eyebrow instead!!! (THose young people)"

Geez, I had my ear pierced in 1971. Young indeed.

UL hikers in the future will have a Velcro implant in the middle of their forehead :)

I want one in the small of my back to keep my pants up!

Ear piercing?? Hell I had my arm removed so that I have a negative total FSO weight.

"Ear piercing?? Hell I had my arm removed so that I have a negative total FSO weight."

So that's what they meant about how to get Crazy Pete out of a tree....

Answer: wave to him!

I've been PMed asking me more about the sleeping bag I mentioned a year ago in this post.

I've used it about 15 nights over the past year, in May, June, July, October and April. All that use was in central and northern MN, temperature range 30F-70F.

I still like the bag and I recommend it to families of boy scouts young and old. I'll be taking it to Philmont in two months and several of our scouts and dads will be doing the same. They also have tested it in July, October and April and nobody complained of being cold on a couple 30F mornings. I was wearing light wt long underwear tops and bottoms and a stocking hat those colder nights and I believe that was typical of the others. I don't expect that it'd comfortably take me (a warm sleeper) to 30F without some help.

It is marginally long enough for me (6'0"). I'm too large in the other directions for this bag but it works OK used as a quilt.

The person asking me for more info was asking for an sobo AT walk. I don't think it'll last for that kind of long term daily use but at that price you could go thru a couple of them.

It comes with a compression stuff sack which is a bit of a joke because it is a very tight stuff in that sack and there's no more compression possible. So cut off the compession straps and save some grams. I prefer to use an "expansion sack" that fills th bottom of my Granite Gear Virga pack. I can squish it smaller when I need the pack volume at the start of a trip with all the food and allow it to expand to fill the pack when the food has been eaten.

The weight is pretty much as advertised (2.31lbs)

Edited by jcolten on 05/21/2007 16:26:24 MDT.

Thanks for this, Jim. I have struggled with a sleeping bag that the guys might use in my troop. Most of the bags the guys have are huge and heavy... cheap poly bags. Totally unfit for backpacking. The parents are... well... basically cheap and it's hard to get them to spend money on their sons. They have Scout Account money they can use to buy gear on their own but it is precious and they need to make good choices.

Hehe, by the way, by comparison my son is pimpin'... 800 fill down bag, Golite pack, alcohol stove (which he built with my help) etc, etc. His base pack weight(at 12) is impressive. I wish I had gotten started that light that early. Oh the things I would have done!

i know this thread started almost 2 years ago and has pretty much been exhausted, but i was shopping for halloween costume stuff at Dollar Tree and found something that I knew had to be added to this thread, and in the name of this thread bought it. there was something primal about this piece of gear, even more zen like than cuben fiber, at least to a college kid. Drumroll please...

A $1 backpack! Weighs about 6 oz, no pockets, unpadded 1" webbing shoulder straps akin to the worst thought out MYOG backpacks, and made of what looks like 200D polyester of the cheapest quality. The zipper feels like it could bust open at any moment. The volume is about 1000-1300 ci. To me, it reminded me of the days contemplating uses for emergency blankets and bubble wrap, $4 6x8 poly tarps, fleece blankets, my first catfood can stove, and other things that just barely worked.


I think this backpack even requires a new category of backpacking- Super Ultra Cheap. Now heres my SUC gearlist-

$1 backpack 6 oz
$5 poncho vinyl 9 oz (sleeping bag cover when cold or no manmade shelter
$1 emergency blanket 2 oz (groundsheet/ bivy)
$5 2.5 yds of walmart fleece for blanket (duct tape footbox together :) 14oz
$1 50 ft string 2oz
$9 thinlite 1/8" 2oz
$2 cotton taboggan 2oz
$.49 tuna stove .5 oz
$5 scout mess kit pot 3 oz
$1 gatorade 32 oz bottle 1.4 oz
$15 accessory kit (AAA flashlight, bleach,med kit,plastic spoon, survivo 5-1) 7 oz
$.25 not enough toilet paper .5 oz

There you have it, under 50 oz, safe to 50*, not too dangerous at 45*, completely rookie, no sewing, and only $45.74 (shipping, gas, etc not included), and a terrible idea. I feel the need to use this gearlist for a 2 nighter.

The pint-plus Cozy Shack containers make a nice bowl. They don't wither from boiling water (boiling at 6000'). The lid is great too, makes alot less licking because you pour in a little hot water, put on the lid, and shake your way to a mostly clean bowl-cup. If you are the ritzy type that brings soap, think of the suds! Aluminum tablespoon from the kitchen drawer.

...I knew had to be added to this thread...

Edited by sharalds on 10/15/2007 06:58:31 MDT.

hah David, to be honest, i'd love to see that kit in action, would deffinitly be fun. i think you could turn a hobo into a backpacker with that kit.
mikE!

Now heres my SUC gearlist
he-he ... glad to see that we can make fun of ourselves

$2 cotton taboggan 2oz
not quite sure what a "cotton taboggan" is, pls educate me

$5 scout mess kit pot 3 oz
You could beat that cost probably without more weight using a tin can, if you can borrow a sidecut can opener you'll even have a lid

I feel the need to use this gearlist for a 2 nighter.
looking forward to the trip report:-)

i think most people refer to a toboggan as a snow sled, but I always knew them as hats. i can see how people could conjure an image of a kid sliding down a mountain on cotton cloth.
sadly, we don't have snow sled lingo in georgia :(

>sadly, we don't have snow sled lingo in georgia :(

Sure we do! It's called "WTF?", right? ;)

Or maybe that's just southwest Georgia specific :D

Tom

While cruising dollar tree again, i found a few new SUC (Super Ultra Cheap) things of interest. First, I saw a pair of gloves for $1. Not just any gloves though, they are fleece lined nylon shell gloves. Windproof, warm, and the kicker is they only weigh 2.5 oz for the pair. Of course, they probably wont hold up too well, but i can see them lasting for a few seasons at least. I also found some of those 4oz teriyaki flavored tuna packets, not cans, for $1 each. Also, i found some classy sunglasses for $1. they are lighter than most too because of the cheap materials.

Forget REI, I'm shopping at Dollar Tree from now on.

Better yet, I'm going to start a company called "The South Face". It's Super Ultra Cheap and Super Ultra Crap. The thing is, it will be so cheap you can afford to replace it every time it craps out on you. It will also, of course, be extremely light.

It's spring time, which means SUC is in need of a new find. I have a $1, 5.75 oz hiking pole to offer. It is made from a mop pole from Dollar Tree. It played double duty as a spear for Halloween. 44" Tall, it seems pretty durable for now. the grip is made from blue foam and duct tape. Some people may be confused though and ask "why make a hiking pole in the name of SUC when you can pick up a stick from the woods?". The answer is that you stand a slightly lower chance of throwing this stick in the fire than a wood one, and the perfect stick is very hard to find. Other acceptable answers include weight and the hobo=awesomeness factor.

Edited by willspower3 on 04/02/2008 17:32:56 MDT.

I wonder how PVC would work for hiking poles? add the grips and good tips like with the DIY carbon poles.
With all the tyvek gear and these, you could completely outfit yourself at the local hardware store...

Or your neighbor's yard when they remodel.

David Wills,

ROFL. Some of your posts on this site are hilarious, and just what I needed right now whilst the GIS software I am using continually crashes on me wasting days of work.

But seriously, this thread was awesome, and has really opened my eyes a bit and made me remember how little we really do need to survive, and how we don't need thousands of dollars worth of unobtanium to survive comfortably, relatively safely and more importantly HAVE FUN in the wilderness.

I think I will try my upmost to minimise the expense and materialism of my bushwalking from now on.

In about 3 months it will be mid-winter in the desert in Australia, and I'll try and head out and try camping with nothing but a box of matches one night (it will be sub freezing). I promise I'll post the results.

Drying my eyes,
Adam

David, thanks for the idea on the SUC trekking pole.

I have some broom handles laying around. Maybe I can rig a Leki type tip and use it with my Gatewood Cape. Can't beat the price that's for sure.

I think it would be a great development if ultralighters began 'competing' with each other to see how cheap they can get their lightweight gear and actually take it out into the wilds and prove it works and then brag about it at forums like this:) Not to actually replace the whole high-tech goods, but as a sort of compensatory movement to engage more people in wilderness activities and self-reliance. Maybe this is something we will develop more in Ukraine/Russia due to the lower incomes of most backpackers.

Edited by Legkohod on 04/03/2008 05:30:47 MDT.

"Other acceptable answers include weight and the hobo=awesomeness factor"

Hilarious!

Honestly though, that kit looks pretty good...for summer backpacking, you'd be good to go!

An old fashioned bicycle handlebar grip might go well with the mop handle.

I've made them from bamboo and glued in the bottom section off a broken aluminum pole giving a carbide tip and the basket mount to boot. About the same weight as a tin pole, but naturally shock absorbing and warmer to the touch. Decorate with line wrappings and/or wood-burned designs.

MYOG version

Edited by guesting on 06/12/2008 19:02:42 MDT.