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First SUL list!
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Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 12:03:38 MDT Print View

List is posted in my profile.

Here's my first SUL list. It has not been used, but a similar version of this is going on next weekend on a trial run with Jacci. A few vital things have not been tested by me (Poncho/tarp and half-bag). That said, the poncho/tarp has good coverage on me and the halfbag has sufficient length and probably too much insulation.

Please note that this list is intended for MN conditions where 30F is an absolute low, 40 is a more accurate low temp. It is also optimized for trail running (fastpacking?) where a map/compass is not necessary. Dedicated backpacking gear that is missing is below the main list (like poles).

Two questions:

1. What can I still cut/change/etc? Please note some weights are close but approximate and I will be replacing the halfbag with a down version that weights ~2-3 ounces less.
2. I'm trying to push this into XUL (full skin out weight is less than 5 lbs/80 ounces). Any ideas?


Edited by citystuckhiker on 04/06/2009 12:05:45 MDT.

Nia Schmald
(nschmald) - MLife
Re: First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 12:30:23 MDT Print View

Nice list. I'd swap the blue foam for a gg nightlight torso, ~1 oz lighter and more comfortable IMO. I'd also add a bandana or pack towel to wipe the tarp especially since your not using a bivy.

Could also drop an ounce by going to ti pegs instead of the easton stakes

Finally a cuben poncho tarp would significantly lighten up your shelter (and wallet).

I'd go with the cap 1 bottoms, much more breathable than any wind pants and wind on my legs (especially when running) isn't a big deal.

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 12:41:31 MDT Print View

Going no cook?

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
cook on 04/06/2009 12:54:20 MDT Print View

Yup. Adding an alky stove would add 6 ounces approx with my pot (Gram Weenie/pan/screen + sparker + REI 1.3L nonstick pot - I also have a puny aluminum cup that holds ~12, but I do not like all-metal pots). Pack volume would not be an issue. Tis a new thing for me.

@Nia: I have looked extensively at the MLD ponchos. I am more interested with the Sil Pro poncho, because of the catenary ridgeline. I have Vargo Ti shepard's hook stakes, but I like the nail stakes - they work better in more soil types. BPL did a great article on stake holding power. About the pants, they were there to protect my legs in the even of a blowing rainstorm. In those temps I have found that I do not need wicking bottoms, but a pair of nylon can be nice. Chaps could be a good option, and I could sew a pair out of Momentum. The Cap 1 bottoms weigh 4.55 ounces (small). I have also thought about getting a GG torso pad, but I don't want to pay the $10 shipping. I might just get a Ridgerest and cut it in two (cost is similar, though).

Also, I will be replacing my poles eventually (BD Spires) with a pair of BPL stix. This will reduce the futz factor with the tarp by a lot.

Edited by citystuckhiker on 04/06/2009 13:42:47 MDT.

Dan Cunningham

Locale: Land of 12,000 Loons
Re: cook on 04/06/2009 14:04:29 MDT Print View

Um... Matt runs on pure adrenaline, in case you didn't know. I'll be surprised if he needs any food at all. Anybody who runs over 50 miles a week is not human anyway, and thus is not burdened by the same constraints as the rest of us.

@ Matt - crazy list man! If you want a Ridgerest, I'll give you one if you buy me a beer. Depending on the venue, this could be a very good deal for you. :)

Regarding the alky stove - my homemade Redbull weighs .25 ounces and has a tight burner for small mugs, windscreen/stand is .5 ounces, and the 850 mL mug from MLD is 2.7 ounces (sans lid). So 3.5 ounces is totally possible with a foil lid, and you'd be able to boil up to 3 cups of water. You have no excuse. Use the money you saved on the Ridgerest and put it toward the absurdly priced $65 cup.

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: cook on 04/06/2009 14:08:56 MDT Print View

I'll take you up on that. Dakota Jazz club in dwtn Mpls on Thursday for happy hour? (

They pour a mean Guinness and some darn good martinis.

(also, only 40 miles last week - long run got nixed - doh! - by Saturday's crazy activities. 60 again this week)

Sam Haraldson
(sharalds) - MLife

Locale: Gallatin Range
First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 14:12:23 MDT Print View

Keep this SUL list sans stove. I presume the intent of this list is for the run/walk we discussed separately and your intent to go without cooking still stands as a good idea in my mind. Less stuff means less hassle and easier packing as well. Not cooking saves a lot of time during the day as well - important for some trips.

I agree with Nia on the addition of a set of tights as well as swapping out the blue foam for a piece of Evazote or Platzote.

ps - We've got Leukotape in stock at BPL again.

Dan Cunningham

Locale: Land of 12,000 Loons
Re: First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 14:28:23 MDT Print View

I was merely being a gear enabler. I agree that Matt doesn't need a stove - see my post above for my logic on this. ;)

@ Matt - is this for "fastpacking" the SHT in a matter of days (less than a week anyway)?

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 14:55:40 MDT Print View

@Dan: The SHT is my training ground, but the location for the trip I have in mind is a super-secret ninja secret. It shall be so until everything is nailed out, just before I am walking out the door for said trip.

On review comments and my list, comments and questions.

1. Stove is staying out; Approximately 2750 of my normal backpacking 3500 calories per day are already no-cook. Not hard to deal with the remainder of those calories.
2. Tights are in and pants are out for now; I need to test the poncho in rain and wind to see if the pants are warranted.
3. Do I need a more robust headlamp? I have a Tikka Plus that weighs 2.75 ounces.
4. Any thoughts on the necessity of a bivy? The poncho/tarp is quite wide. I have been looking at the MLD Superlight or TiGoat Ptarmigan (with net window). The current syn quilt creates minimal cold spots, the eventual down quilt will be baffled, but my jacket is sewn through. Any issues? I have a Thermawrap parka, but the Inner Down is so much warmer and it weighs less.
5. The other day I packed up the Z1 with my Marmot Hydrogen (without a stuff sack!) and the said foamer; the pack could be easily cranked down to make it essentially no-bounce.
6. What do folks think about cordlocks like in BPL's guylines series? I have used these with Hilleberg tents, but what about the futz factor with 'biners and guylines on the ponchotarp?
7. I may just get the GG torso pad; I'll still take Dan up on his offer.
8. I think the repair kit is necessary. Anyone disagree?

Thanks for comments.

Edited by citystuckhiker on 04/06/2009 15:41:27 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 15:59:19 MDT Print View


Since you asked...some ideas, not that I would do everyting, but if you want to par ounces, perhaps it will give you some ideas.

Z1 Pack = 4.20 oz
* Joe has lighter options, can you use something smaller?
* XUL should not require strenum strap or waist belt.
* Could probably save 1 - 2 ounces.

Pack Liner = 1.41
* ZPacks lists a 750 cu in Cuben stuff sack @ .40 oz

Blue Foam Pad = 4.48
* GG 3/8" pad = 1.9 oz

GoLite Poncho Tarp = 11.00 oz
* MLD Silnylon Poncho Tarp = 8.8 oz
* Possible Cuben Poncho Tarp?

You asked about bivy -
* Yes, you have down jacket & Nuatek
* MLD LiteSoul Bivy = 4.40 oz
* no ground sheet needed with Bivy, so net bivy = 2.74

Easton Nail Stakes = 2.82
* (8) MLD Ti Stakes = 2.30 (use rocks, etc to help)

Capilene 1 top = 4.90
* replace with BPL Merino Hoody
* This replaces Beanie too
* Might no need windshirt as much (see below)

Windshirt = 3.17
* Use Poncho instead

Windpants = 3.60
* Not needed, wear tights

Sunglasses = .60
* not needed, unless snow (you have ball cap)

Digital Camera = 6.56
* there are lighter cameras

Notable missing - Poles for tarp?
* MLD has light carbon poles, or are you going to rely on natural replacements?

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 16:59:18 MDT Print View

Nick: all good suggestions.

Pack: The Z1 is just what I have here. I realize it is probably volume overkill, but I cannot justify buying (another) pack. I believe a Zilch would work fine. I need the belt and sternum strap because of the bouncing running causes.

Pack liner: I may make a liner custom fitted to the pack out of cuben fiber. See the MYOG forum and the cuben fiber stuff sack discussion.

Foam pad: I am looking at the weight of a cut Ridgerest and a GG pad. Good suggestion.

Stakes: This is an issue with versatility. I have some shepard stakes, but prefer my nails for better and more reliable holding power.

Bivy: I do not like the Soul Lite because of the lack of a mesh window. If I am getting a bivy it will be for bug, wind and splatter protection. Also, I worry about the bottom of a bivy being shredded by the ground, regardless of what I camp on. If I use it, I would be tempted to use a thin strip of Tyvek for abrasion purposes. It is cheaper to replace tyvek than the bivy bottom. I have been looking at the MLD Superlight and TiGoat Ptarmigan. I have a problem spending twice the amount of a similar product when the weight savings is ~2 oz.

BPL Merino: I'm waiting on the next production run and looking at cost and warmth v. Cap 1. I will be running (or at least hiking very hard) for some of these hikes, so it must not be too warm. I have an R1 Hoody, so I understand the versatility.

Windshirt: probably not needed except during light spray and rain. I would rather not run outside of my tarp at night to pee without some protection.

Windpants: dropped pending testing; added Cap 1 bottoms in their place (pending testing, also).

Sunglasses: Staying via preference.

Digital Camera: again, it is what I have. I considered leaving it back, but the pictures would be invaluable.

Poles: I'm looking into a pole set from GG; aluminum for $24. The extra cost for CF plus the track record from Fibraflex makes me shy away from them.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Edited by citystuckhiker on 04/06/2009 17:18:05 MDT.

Nia Schmald
(nschmald) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 17:59:00 MDT Print View

On the tarp you mentioned preferring a silnylon with cat curve over a cuben I assume to get a tighter pitch. One thing to keep in mind is the sil sag, especially when wet, which will negate this advantage somewhat. Also I'm sure Ron would make you a cuben poncho with cat cut if you asked nicely.

Poles? Don't need no stinkin poles. :) Seriously sticks work fine for pitching a tarp, and judging from your avatar background you should be able to find a few sticks fairly easily.

I have the merino hoody, which is slightly heavier than bpl merino bottoms. It's much warmer than cap 1. I wouldn't want to go hard wearing it unless it was below the mid 30s.

The polycro ground sheets are much lighter than tyvek. You can pick up window heat shrink film at your local hardware store and avoid shipping from gg. It's the same stuff.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 17:59:54 MDT Print View


Regarding the BPL Hoody. First of all they run BIG. I got a small and it fits perfectly... the only small size item I own.

Regarding how hot it is. This is an unbelievable item... it is cool and warm when you need it. A few weeks ago I was hiking with a Thoroughfare shirt. I had the hoody in my pack because I was experimenting with a quilt, and was afraid it would not be warm enough.

After 3 hours of hiking on relatively flat ground, the temps in the low 80's I notice that my butt was completely soaked. I removed my pack and water poured out of the shirt. I am not talking a little moisture, but a deluge!!

Well, I put on the Hoody. I was about noon, and the hottest part of the day, and I began the most strenuous part of the hike up some hills. The hoody was cool enough and no more sweat. Kept me warm at night. The next day I hiked in the hoody all day with temperatures in the high 80's. Surprising cool, but not like a Cap 1 T-shirt. The BPL hoody is an awesome piece of clothing. The Thoroughfare collection.... well, not the best investment I have ever made, to say the least.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: Re: Re: First SUL list! on 04/06/2009 18:08:47 MDT Print View

Matt, looks good. Maybe I missed it, but what's with this quilt you made? I remember you talking about it. Did you post any info about it here?

So, the list. Like most have said, the killer sticking out in the crowd is that poncho...11 oz hurts. I have thought many times that a poncho/tarp is not required. Could one not just use a standard tarp and wrap it around their back like a cape? I mean, if you are going that light, you're gonna want to push the limits. I was thinking one of the MLD Cuben monk tarps - 130 bucks and 4 ounces. That would be some big savings.
One thing I recently did on my Sub 5 list is to only set up my poncho/tarp in the pyramid style. This way it requires only 1 guyline on the pole and the rest of the tieouts go directly to the pegs in the ground - eliminates your question about the fuzz factor too. Also good coverage and faster to set up.
FWIW, I definitely like to use a bivy under my tarp. It really helps with drafts and if the weather gets nasty it is pretty much required for me to stay dry. Don't bother buying one. They're too heavy. Just make your own like mine or Bill F's. Less then $100 & 3 ounces including stuffsack.
As for that secrets are known up here to be the toughest to decipher...will have to start working immediately!

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: Re: Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 18:29:21 MDT Print View

Lots of comments - I'll address them in turn:

1. Heat. As the temp rises, the long sleeve Cap 1 will turn to a Cap 1 short sleeve, and I'll probably lose the hat.
2. Re: hoody - Like I said, I am waiting for Gen. 2.
3. Poles staying at home. My hiking is currently 100 percent below treeline and in massive forests.
4. I have a GG sheet and love it. Just need to cut to size.
5. Quilt is in the MYOG forum; pics will be up in about 2 hours. Should be near the top of the forum.
6. Poncho/Tarp is a sore thumb. I have not used it yet, but I have tried it on with a pack to get sizing. It is mostly a cost issue, and that I have the GoLite Poncho tarp right now. The Cat curve just intrigues me; I just bought a Oware Cat2 (sil) and love it. First test is this weekend. I own a myog 5.5x8.75 sil tarp and not a huge fan of the futz factor in getting a drum-tight pitch. Also, I am looking at using tensioners for any tarp.
7. I will look at the MYOG bivy idea. I just dl'd SketchUp so maybe I'll draw some stuff up on there. **goes to check MYOG forum**

Thanks all.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 21:19:28 MDT Print View

It is mostly a cost issue, and that I have the GoLite Poncho tarp right now

I hear want some new gear but the stuff you have is perfectly fine, plus it's already there in your gear closet. That's the life of an addict!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SUL list on 04/06/2009 21:58:19 MDT Print View


Nothing wrong with the GoLite Poncho/Tarp. I have one and a MLD Silnylon Pro. The Pro is a little lighter and a bit more coverage. But, $155 to save one ounce...

Anyway, you asked for ideas. Most of us do not have unlimited budgets.

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Photos of half-quilt on 04/06/2009 22:16:54 MDT Print View