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To start the discussion, I'll pose a question (feel free to post your own as well):

What type of sleeping pad(s) do you use for integrating into a frameless pack suspension (include the brand and whether or not it's an inflatable or closed cell foam), and how do you use it as such (folded, rolled, etc.)?

Currently I am using Mount Washington Evazote closed cell foam pads as the structure for my MoonBow Gearskin. This is a pack that folds and buckles closed. Tightening the buckles ties the gear and pads together to increase structure.

Edited by photonstove on 11/22/2003 14:40:37 MST.

I am using a thermarest 3/4 ultralite with a Go Lite Breeze. I roll it up, stick it in the pack, and let it unroll around the edge of the pack. Now I have a nice little tube to stick everything in and nothing digs into my back.

I currently use a self inflating Therm-a-Rest 3/4 length Ultralight. I typically insert it rolled into my backpack (deflated), and then inflate it to fill out the pack. My experience is that the inflated pad makes my pack no more (and less) rigid than if the pack was tight packed, filled with normal gear.

Regarding your torso length chart...

I have a 18.5" torso measure ALONG THE SPINE (IOW, not projected to a parallel surface).

I found the Moonlight to be way too long. The shoulder straps came straight up off of my shoulders rather than around the top and then down an inch or two. With this particular pack, it seems like the torso length is fixed at the "width" of your pad. Typically 20", less 1.5"-2", as the hipbelt's midline is a bit up from the bottom of the pack. I returned the otherwise beautiful pack because my shoulders got sore after carrying a 22# load on a 18mi day-hike (weekend load).

I now own a Katahdin, which I still find to be a bit long, even with the hipbelt raised to its "highest" position.

I have since discovered that the sore shoulder problem is due to a posture change (leaning forward too much) that occured when I tried to wheene myself from using trekking poles.

I have read the intro article and this one, but some of the torso length assumptions seems a bit odd.

BTW, I was using a Wally World 20"x50"x3/8" closed cell pad folded 2 twice in both packs.

Edited by tlbj6142 on 11/22/2003 15:15:50 MST.

>> I have a 18.5" torso measure ALONG THE SPINE (IOW, not projected to a parallel surface).

Which means that it's probably a little longer when projected.

>> I found the Moonlight to be way too long. The shoulder straps came straight up off of my shoulders rather than around the top and then down an inch or two.

It sounds like your pack may have been longer than our sample. You should contact Ron Moak and check. Perhaps there were changes made since the time we received our sample and the time you got your production version.

The other possibility is that you are wearing the hip belt with its centerline much higher than the iliac crest. Some folks do tend to wear their hip belts as "waist" belts.

>> With this particular pack, it seems like the torso length is fixed at the "width" of your pad.

The pack torso length is going to be measured from the shoulder strap seam to the hip belt centerline.

>> Typically 20", less 1.5"-2", as the hipbelt's midline is a bit up from the bottom of the pack.

The hip belt on our sample may be sewn higher than on yours. The centerline is several inches higher than the bottom of the pad.

>> I returned the otherwise beautiful pack because my shoulders got sore after carrying a 22# load on a 18mi day-hike (weekend load).

One possible source of this discomfort may be the narrow width of the shoulder strap. It affects different people in different ways, depending on your torso shape.

>> I have read the intro article and this one, but some of the torso length assumptions seems a bit odd.

The ideal torso assumptions are just that - assumptions - but we based them on industry conventions and feedback from pack designers from major manufacuters, which indicate that (1) some extra length needs to be built into the pack length to allow for pack collapse when loaded, and (2) the big one - that the ideal position of a hip belt is having its centerline about an inch below the iliac crest.

Edited by ryan on 02/29/2004 01:03:39 MST.

Ryan,
Have you put the G-4 through similar testing? What were your findings if you have? I only use mine occasionally and when I do, I use two pads. The Z-rest and also, a full length 3/8" thick pad in the "rolled cylinder" configuration. The pack feels nice like this. I don't use the pack much in warmer weather because I simply don't have enough gear to fill it up.

We haven't yet done the analysis on the old / current model G4 - that pack was reviewed in an earlier review (but before we were doing these suspension analyses). We are waiting for Glen's new version to be released, and we'll publish the data on that as it becomes available.

>> I found the Moonlight to be way too long. The shoulder straps came straight up off of my shoulders rather than around the top and then down an inch or two.

I just reread this and I have a proposal why it didn't work for you, but realize that it's only an idea because I haven't seen it.

With a pack that has shoulder straps that are directly sewn in and do come straight off the shoulders, the upper panel of the pack needs to be close to your upper back, or it will pull you back. The most common fit problems of this type I see are when the back panel is not molded to shape of the wearer's back. This is a problem with frameless packs, especially those that have rolled cylinder pads in them, because they don't conform to the shape of your spine as well; hence, one benefit of bendable aluminum frame stays.

Solution: pack your pack not so dense so that it doesn't conform to the shape of your spine, and pound / bend a lumbar recess in the pack before putting it on to try to give it some natural curvature.

I use a Golite Speed. When I'll be sleeping in a hammock, I carry a rolled Target blue closed foam pad, strapped vertically into the helmet holder on the back of the Speed. This provides some longitudinal rigidity and leaves the pack quite comfortable and able to hug my back. Putting it inside the pack, whether folded or loosely rolled into a cylinder, does not work with the body-conforming, hourglass-shaped body on the Speed.

When I'll be sleeping in a tarptent, I roll up a Therm-a-Rest pad and strap it on the same way. If I were to switch to a smaller pad (such as the one BPL will be selling, or one of the new ones coming from Cascade Designs), I would probably just stow it inside the pack body.

Edited by slnsf on 11/23/2003 22:38:29 MST.

>>> I have a 18.5" torso measure ALONG THE SPINE (IOW, not projected to a parallel surface).

>>Which means that it's probably a little longer when projected.

Isn't this backwards? Wouldn't my "projected" torso length be shorter than my "along the spine" length? A straight line would be shorter than a curved line that has the same endpoints.