so is this thread....shoot me

Yea you are probably right, im a bit out of line. Ill try to be a little more helpful. I admit, ive thought about carrying a gun on hikes, but only cuz it would make me FEEL safe, not for any logical reason. And i would probably just end up using it to entertain myself (this is totally ok where i live). And i do carry a 22" machete for clearing my path which, in my mind, would double as a bit of protection. But again, not logical at all, i dont think for a second that i would stand a chance against a mountain lion or a bear.
There aren't bears here in eastern Nevada, but if there were, i wouldnt want to kill them just for defending what is theirs, or for being hungry. I think the idea is to deture them from bothering humans in the future. I would think a shot of pepper spray is about as close as we might get to that effect.
On that note, i will be in eastern Cali/Oregon doing some packing this spring/summer, and i am a bit worried about the bears. I was wondering if anybody could share any methods for keeping pepper spray readily at hand. My pack doesnt have side pockets, and i rarely wear anything with pockets.

When will we Americans sober up and realize that something else is going on in our society that make our people generally more prone to violence -- with more of a penchant to "take others down with us"?

I think a big hint to the problem lies in the very way American people tend to talk to one another on this and thousands of other sites, and in everyday conversations... that inability to let go of the argument. That need to always be right. Or just the unwillingness to back down, even when they are right. What scares me is not so much the guns themselves (inanimate objects, as so many people mention), but the very need for people to insist on them. It's very much like an addiction: those who are addicted most often cannot admit to themselves that there even is an addiction, which is what can make being with addicts so frightening and exhausting, much more so than the drugs or alcohol or gambling money themselves. I think that as long as Americans insist on whatever (not just guns) it is they are adamant about things like the gun argument will always exist. Of course, admitting to oneself that what you are insisting on is ultimately unimportant is the biggest part of the challenge... not easy to do at all.

>> stefan hoffman wrote:
>>"but above all, just stfu and go hike"

> You're out of line

Agreed. No matter how much you disagree with someone's opinion or the topic of discussion, telling people to "stfu" has no place on BPL. The great thing about this forum is that it is friendly, open and respectful (with very occasional exceptions). Let's keep it that way.

EDIT: Thanks Stefan for your much more constructive post which appeared while I was composing this one =-)

Edited by ashleyb on 03/20/2009 21:04:42 MDT.

In all fairness Miguel, I've got to call you out on that statement.
(No hard feelings, I'm not angry, I'm not yelling here, just making a point)
You're pretty much equating being American with an unwillingness to back down and the inability to let go. It borders on being very stereotypical and offensive.
Shall we begin a discussion of all the messed up ways in which Japanese think and act? No. I don't believe in making statements like that. It would completely ignore the individual, wouldn't it?
I lived in Japan; yes there are behavioral traits unique to the culture...but does that warrant making blanket statements implying what all Japanese can and can't do?

In my opinion, what you're citing is definitely how the U.S. government and many people in this country act, and on that level, I completely understand.
But it also applies to many people ALL OVER THE WORLD. I think what you're referencing is human nature. Please don't lump me in with the actions of the U.S. government or other gross misconceptions of people here.

***By the way, I've enjoyed browsing your blog, especially the many of the photos- somehow I found it through the site here. I didn't get to hike as much as I would've liked while in Japan.

I've never thought of myself as an addict. But I guess if I am, I have an excuse now to buy the 50's vintage Argentinian Colt 1911 copy I found today. Cool! I was tired of being addicted to backpacking gear anyway. Gotta go get my ammo together, I have a 3 gun competition in the morning. And if I do poorly, I'm blaming the guns. Ha!

Edited by skinewmexico on 03/20/2009 22:16:02 MDT.

Joe you shooting that new western 3-gun competition? Looks like fun. Beats stationary shooting afaic

stefan hoffman wrote:
>>My pack doesnt have side pockets, and i rarely wear
>>anything with pockets

Maybe you should keester it

Craig, perhaps you're right. I was just trying to come up with something to explain the very strong feelings about and the overabundance of guns in America. It is a gun control discussion, is it not? As Ben suggested, something besides the guns themselves has to explain what is going on.

I also feel that what happened after the New York tragedy and in Afghanistan and Iraq very much reveals the general American character, both bad and good, and a lot of that is derived, I believe, in great part from what I stated earlier.

I am not at all saying that other people in other countries don't have their own sets of attitude problems and issues they have to work out; certainly the Japanese need a lot of work on a lot of things, especially a need to stop measuring the world through Japanese standards. But, for the moment, we aren't talking about them; we're talking about guns in America and why. If no one is willing to honestly take a look at the attitudes behind what is happening in the States then this whole discussion is rather a giant waste of time. Just people spouting off opinions without looking at the roots of the issue. Might as well not say anything at all then. But obviously it is a topic that touches a very deep nerve, and so most likely is something that really does have to be faced... it just seems no one wants to face the truth behind the feelings people have on both sides.

Just to let you know... I'm not Japanese. I'm an American/ German. I grew up in Japan, America, and Germany. Half of my family is American, so it's not like I'm not talking about myself, too.

I can say this, though... very likely someone, someone American, is going to contest everything I say here, using the usual argument that no one should lump Americans in one boat. True in one way, but as a nation Americans, too, have a distinct character that defines them as Americans and makes them different from Germans or Brazilians or Chinese. That is where a generalization helps to identify aspects of being American that may be causing the problem we're talking about. This discussion will get absolutely no where if we just take each individual's opinion one-by-one. There has to be some kind of common language.

Edited by butuki on 03/21/2009 07:27:03 MDT.

Lynn,
"and absence of persecution." OK, this is a "right" you say. Well, then when you have a right you also have a duty that comes with it. Duties usually require the upholding of the right. You have a right to free speech and I have a duty to uphold your right, whether it be by not infringing on it or fighting to protect it. The same goes with your absence of persecution. If you have that right then you, and I, have the duty to uphold that right.
Now, lets say you are being persecuted by... hmm.. some group of thugs taking your daughter and beating her in the middle of the street. Oh, and they don't care about a right to bear arms, they are thugs... their illegal weapons are provided by some crime leader...(or whatever). Now, do you run out side and scratch them with your nails and hit them with a shovel handle? Do you try to reason with them (as they are beating your child). Or do you, because of your duty to protect your child, exercise your right to bear arms and make the best attempt you can to save your child. The analogy can be applied by many different pictures/scenarios.
The bottom line is that you have a right to be free from persecution and a duty/responsibility to uphold that right for yourself and others. A weapon- be it a gun or whatever- is only a tool that is being utilized to exercise that right.
Your reasoning is flawed. I have a right to bear arms, as declared by our Constitution, so that when persecution rains down on us we can fight back for our friends and family.
Quite honestly, I don't see how you can think that way unless you are totally ignorant of 20th century European history and the rest of world history for that matter. I don't care if I am coming across harsh; people have to start to stand up against this kind of intellectual lunacy or your "fun and free" days in the backcountry are going to come to an end when you are banished to the equivalent of a Siberian work camp for the rest of your short life. Get with it. The life you enjoy in this country is because people have paid the price for it with their life.


Basically, Lynn, the "right to bear arms" is not the "right to bear guns" it say's "arms" because this term covers any item that can be used for defense. So basically the amendment means that we have the right to protect ourselves. <-Just and afterthought.

Edited by pmankow on 03/21/2009 09:56:36 MDT.

Paul, where do you live where people drag children into the street and beat them??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I have never seen so much blatent fear in my life. Looks like the lord obama's plan is working. So my question is how many people here have used thier guns to shoot down a would be attacker. Ali

do

Edited by oware on 03/26/2009 18:55:51 MDT.

Maybe we can say America has an "obsession" with guns.
I have guns, but I hardly feel obsessed. They're just objects and they do what I want them to. To be honest, I'm more nervous ripping wood on my table saw than handling a gun.

But on a larger level, this country is one of the largest (if not THE largest) arms dealers and most militarized nations on the face of the Earth. Maybe it's only fitting that our population is armed, too. Maybe that psychology trickles down somehow...I don't know.

As for why- why all the violence with guns here? I think it's pretty simple when you look at the areas with the highest concentrations of violence (I happen to live near many of these areas and teach students that come from them).

We have bad economics, poor schooling, and little opportunity for ENORMOUS sub-populations. We have a shrinking middle class, exploding lower class, and hyper-concentrated upper class. This leads to a rampant drug trade, gangs, domestic violence, prostitution, class warfare, the "War on Drugs" (which in the U.S. is a war on poor people), a prison industrial complex...
At some point this crazy cycle spills onto the street with shootings.

Do more guns = more shootings? Absolutely. But the guns are a fact, we can't make them disappear now. I suspect people would be killing each other with something else here if guns disappeared.

But they won't.

This whole guns thing is too often framed in the context of "Should we or shouldn't we have them?".
It's a COMPLETELY irrelevant question when there are already millions and millions of them in the hands of our population.
The real question is what we're getting at here: Now that we have them, how do we safely live with them?

Edited by xnomanx on 03/21/2009 11:18:42 MDT.

@Taylor - Joe you shooting that new western 3-gun competition?

Nope, just the old-fashioned IPSC-type.

Bonus question - What developed country does the UN rate as the most violent?

do

Edited by oware on 03/26/2009 18:55:06 MDT.

http://www.gunfacts.info/

Ali e,
The vast majority of defensive gun use does not involve shooting, much less hitting or killing ones assailant.

...my wife had to defend herself by drawing her S&W 442 .38 special, but she did not have to fire, and it was not reported in the local press.

re: the question of who here has killed defending themselves ... there are a lot of military vets here, 'Nam, Serbia, Gulf I & II, you meet people who have killed rather than be killed more often that you think.

I agree with Mr. Ben.

I'd like to add a Springfield XD 40 subcompact (26 ounces unloaded)to my growing list of backpacking luxury items, but at 500$ I'll have to stick to Makers Mark et al. for a little while longer.

It not like its as heavy as some of those SLR cameras some people lug around ;)

I have never read about someone using a camera mistaking a person for a 600lb bear while shooting them. Seems to be a problem with guns. I have yet to see the semblance between a 130lb woman hiking and a bear. No gun and many more people would have got to come home from their walks.

Micheal, I'm an ex international war corrispondant. I have lived through it and seen it all. The only differecnce is I was independant and had nowbody watching my back other than fellow Shooters. I know the smell of death very peronally. My question was not to ex combatants I would expect that They have seen it. I am talking about the average joe(Joe nothing implied that you are average) Funny I have spent the last twenty years in some of the most dangerous places on earth and the thought of using a gun has only crossed my mind once. While covering the LA riots I had an armed Guard. Ali
edit-had to add a joe disclaimer

Edited by barefootnavigator on 03/21/2009 14:56:46 MDT.